14 ms·

'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

• duxup 8y ago
  Lots of fast casual places now have a tip on their screens. I always choose 0. I mean seriously the only interaction I'm having lasted 30 seconds, I'll never see this person again / they won't do anything more for me, no tip needed... I hate tipping as it is (granted I do tip in non fast casual food situations). I'd rather just the cost be up front.
  • hoodwink 8y ago
    I used to feel the same, but then I started to appreciate just how fortunate I am to not have to work in retail. This isn’t because I’m better. It’s just because I was born into the right situation. I always tip now and use the experience as a reminder not to take my fortune for granted. It’s also a reminder that everything I have might be taken away at any time.
    • decebalus1 8y ago
      Just like George Carlin said: "The upper class keeps all of the money, pays none of the taxes. The middle class pays all of the taxes, does all of the work. The poor are there just to scare the shit out of the middle class. Keep 'em showin' up at those jobs."
    • batteryhorse 8y ago
      I don't think retail is a bad job. I would hate to be stuck at a computer all day writing code and dealing with non-technical managers and clients. Someone who works a job where they receive consistent tips can make a lot of money, and if it's in cash it's tax free. Plus the tips never go to the kitchen who do all the actual work.
      • techsupporter 8y ago
        > and if it's in cash it's tax free. Obligatory nit: Being paid in cash is not exempt from regular income tax.
      • iamaelephant 8y ago
        Just because you don't personally pay tax on that income doesn't mean it's "tax free". You may be getting away with it (for now), but income is taxable, regardless of whether it's paid in cash.
    • duxup 8y ago
      If they want to raise prices to give those folks a reasonable wage I'm fine with it. The tipping system is not a good way to make things fair. People do not tip fairly as it is.
    • mnm1 8y ago
      It's too bad the owners of such establishments don't remind themselves in the same way by giving their employees living wages. I too am fortunate and thankful and have been duped many times but you know who is a lot more fortunate? The owners of these places trying to displace their costs onto us.
    • Paul-ish 8y ago
      Is tipping a solution to to others misfortune?
      • hoodwink 8y ago
        I don’t know. I was saying that tipping is a solution to not take my good fortune for granted.
  • rahimnathwani 8y ago
    It seems strange to ask for a tip before the service has been rendered, if the tip is an incentive for good service.
    • duxup 8y ago
      It is strange. Tip them because they bothered .... I've not even seen my food yet...
  • egypturnash 8y ago
    So I'm making an assumption here but... how many orders of magnitude separate your pay and that of the people making your food? Also: how much spit do you estimate you've consumed when eating at places where you're a regular who is known to never tip?
    • SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
      So you see the tip as a sort of bribe to stop those filthy poors contaminating your food?
      • eivindga 8y ago
        Tipping and bribes goes hand in hand... https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/faculty-research/publications/here-tip-prosocial-gratuities-are-linked-corruption https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/faculty-research/publications/h...
    • duxup 8y ago
      Raise the prices, fine by me. I just don't like the tipping system. If you're worried about fairness I belive studies have shown that white women in their 30s get the best tips. Minority? Not so much. I tip at restaurants, just not fast casual places where there is effectively no service beyond someone at the front.
• brian-armstrong 8y ago
  The tip calculator on these is surprisingly broken in obvious ways. For example, if you order a cup of coffee and merchandise or a bag of beans, it calculates 15% on the entire order. Wtf!
  • notyourwork 8y ago
    You usually do tip on the full amount right?
    • enra 8y ago
      Usually in restaurants where all the of the goods are individually prepare / served. Many cafes sell also beans and other merchandise that are manufactured or made in batches, and can be $20 per item. So tipping on those items would be similar than you tipping in grocery stores or other stores that sell goods. Like you buy a $20k car, do you tip them 20%? Personally, I always just change the default calculation and tip on the service items like $1 for coffee/drink.
    • freditup 8y ago
      The parent's point is that you don't normally tip on merchandise you buy. If you buy a beer for $10 and a tshirt for $30 from a bartender, a typical tip would be $2 not $8. That said, it's sort of an arbitrary custom. It's not very much work to fill a glass of beer, find a t-shirt in some cabinet, or hand someone a cup of coffee.
      • brian-armstrong 8y ago
        Not like it makes much of a difference, but in the cases where I've seen it, the merchandise is just on display on the floor. So there is not even an aspect of retrieving it from the cabinet, it is just being rung up.
    • brian-armstrong 8y ago
      No, you would tip on the food service amount only. Similary you would not tip at a convenience store or grocery store. At least, this is my US centric viewpoint - other locations might have different customs
• maym86 8y ago
  Guess what, you still don't have to tip if you don't want to. Your "guilt" is your problem, not a problem with the iPad. Anything that increases the takehome pay of low paid service workers in SF seems fine. It is entirely opt in. An article featuring complaints about some of the lowest paid people in SF getting paid a little more because of a new technology lacks some self awareness.
  • jahewson 8y ago
    > Anything that increases the takehome pay of low paid service workers in SF seems fine. Anything?
  • jaysonelliot 8y ago
    Another way to look at it is that companies are making it easier to underpay their workers by offloading the responsibility for seeing that they're fairly compensated to their customers. Repeated studies have shown that tipping is inherently discriminatory, with people of color faring worse than, say, conventionally "pretty" blonde women. In this case, the workers don't even get the one benefit of tipping that wait staff do, namely, cash that can go largely untaxed. What's happening here is that companies are setting a new normal that lets them not only avoid the cost of employees by calling their workers "independent contractors," they're even avoiding the cost of paying them a fair wage at all. This isn't about guilt, it's about service workers being hurt by basic concepts like fair and equitable pay, benefits and stability being replaced by a gig economy where their take-home pay is subject to the whims of patrons' moods.
    • maym86 8y ago
      I agree entirely. Ideally all this tipping nonsense would go away and people would have a decent wage without it. My main objection was more to do with the sentiment of well paid tech workers I have met who complain about this technology because they feel pressured to tip a low paid workers more. A position I have little sympathy for.
  • smittywerben 8y ago
    > Your guilt is your problem I'm sorry, who are you?
• tictok4 8y ago
  Just click no tip, problem solved. Another reason to use cash. No awkwardness with tips.
• bdcravens 8y ago
  Worth noting that California pays a "fair" minimum wage to tipped workers (as opposed to states that pay as little as $2.13/hr to tipped workers)
  • tdurden 8y ago
    $2.13/hr was what I was paid as a waiter 20 years ago, and was terrible back then - it amazes me that this number is still the same.
  • GhostVII 8y ago
    If you make below minimum wage as a tipped employee, your employer must make up the difference. Saying that they make $2.13/hr is misleading.
• tomc1985 8y ago
  Where I am there are a lot of restaurants with the Square tablets on a pivot, and what I've noticed is that with fast-food-type places the worker will turn their head away while you enter the tip amount. Or they'll preselect, "no tip" I too am annoyed by the ubiquity of these tip prompts, but the manners haven't changed. (It's been on credit card slips forever.) People shouldn't feel obligated to tip just because, say, it's the owner serving cold brew from his food truck.
  • lbotos 8y ago
    I mean, my fav is NYC cabs where the options start at 20% and go 25%, 30% or custom. Great way to avoid getting 10% tips if that was set as the floor.
  • edoceo 8y ago
    In many cases the software magically selected 20%, vs a paper receipt which adds 0%
• deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
• gnicholas 8y ago
  I give credit to the few shops that default to "no tip" — presumably because so little service is involved in their transactions. Of course, it's fine to offer an option to add a tip, which is basically just the digital equivalent of a tip jar. But for the shops where service is minimal, it is appropriate to set the default to be no tip.
  • pmorici 8y ago
    The real question is wether the workers are being paid the tipped or no tips minimum wage. The former being much less than the later in much of the US
    • gnicholas 8y ago
      I'm in CA so don't encounter this issue. Is it common in other states for workers in an establishment where you order at a counter and pick up your food from a counter to be paid a tipped minimum wage? I thought employers had to gross up employee pay if their hourly + tips didn't hit the non-tipped minimum wage?
      • techsupporter 8y ago
        > I thought employers had to gross up employee pay if their hourly + tips didn't hit the non-tipped minimum wage? Employers are required to do that. However, as is most often the case at the low end of the job ladder, enforcing your employment rights against your employer is a very efficient way to find yourself unemployed and--in smaller communities where "people are gonna talk"--blackballed from ever holding a job again.
        • gnicholas 8y ago
          I totally understand that. I'm just wondering if anyone is aware of employers paying a tipped minimum wage to the sorts of businesses described (where employees interact with employees in the same way as in fast food establishments, roughly).
• blacksqr 8y ago
  It seems to me that tipping has evolved from an incentive and reward for good service to a form of voluntary workfare where those who have something to spare decide to share with those still struggling in the low end of the service economy.
  • exacube 8y ago
    yes! tipping is like a naturally occuring form of redistrbution of wealth in capitalist countries :) I personally view the evolution of tipping culture as positive on the whole. and also, I think people tend to tip a bit higher if they feel good about the service, so it still incentivizes good service. When I visit Europe, I am reminded how nice the service industry in America is.
    • KyeRussell 8y ago
      Or you could just have a living minimum wage, lol.
      • exacube 8y ago
        yes, if the government could manage to pass a good law there :) but in the event that the government won't, tipping helps correct the situation.
        • jwfxpr 8y ago
          Or it can be argued that tipping offers those who control the means to change the law (the elected lawmakers) the excuse they need not to.
    • keithnz 8y ago
      Nothing quite like holding the barrel of 'not being able to afford to live' to someones head to get them to give you great service. I'm reminded from a number of times when I travel to the US and talk with people from the service industry and finding out they are, anecdotally, mostly in financial crisis.
    • deleted 8y ago
• smallnamespace 8y ago
  Defaults matter. If the 'default' tip on the app is 15% or 20%, then you need to make an affirmative choice to not tip. Yes, you can (usually) opt out, but the screen is telling you in no uncertain terms that tipping is probably a social norm here—if you choose to opt out, you are making the extra effort to break the norm. Otherwise, why bother setting the default at all rather than force the user to enter an explicit amount every time, like on a restaurant bill? Also, there's a whole subbranch of behavioral economics ('nudge' economics) that basically studies how to frame choices and set defaults to influence decision making [1]. Advertisers and politicians also take advantage of the power of framing and defaults. So getting back to the ethics of the issue, it'd be interesting to see data on how much the default influences the actual tip paid, and how that incentivizes the actual business owner (e.g. set a higher tip rate, pay a lower wage?) [1] http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/richard.thaler/research/pdf/smartjpe.pdf http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/richard.thaler/research/pdf/...
  • AviationAtom 8y ago
    I like when they set the defaults even higher than 20%. I went to a Sports Clips and the lowest default was $5 on an $18 haircut, with I think $10 being the highest. They spend probably 20 minutes on a basic haircut. I don't think that a 50%+ tip is reasonable.
    • amazingman 8y ago
      Is it reasonable to think of this tip in terms of percentages?
      • carlmr 8y ago
        I'd say, yes. The honest price you're paying is price + tip. If the default tip is such a large percentage the pricing is dishonest.
        • dagw 8y ago
          I'd say, yes. On the other hand if tipping is paying for service, why do you 'deserve' a bigger tip just because I ordered the more expensive thing? If the 'fair' price for you talking to me about wine for 2 minutes and then bringing me the the bottle I want is $15 then surly you deserve $15 no matter if I select the $50 or $500 bottle.
• rbritton 8y ago
  Don’t always assume the full tip goes to the employees. At a place I used to work, the employer took 50% of the gratuity charge for all banquets. If you want the employee to get it, tip in cash.
  • oasisbob 8y ago
    Is there any state where that isn't just blatantly illegal wage theft?
• ggm 8y ago
  The article explicitly addresses SF So this article is about a state which enforces a minimum wage above the US norm for workers in tip-heavy industries. US minimum wage is like $2.15 and federally mandated tip+wage rate is $7.25 and the Californian state wage is $10. This is functionally equivalent to federal minimum plus 30%. I realize the transition moment here is confronting, and with family who work and depend on this class of labour I am completely aware of the immediate pay consequence, but even with this, I think Californians should grab an opportunity to walk off tip culture, and walk into 'fair pay for work' culture. The minimum wage is not fair? Lets support all workers for a fair minimum wage. End tip culture.
  • gnicholas 8y ago
    > I think Californians should grab an opportunity to walk off tip culture, and walk into 'fair pay for work' culture. The minimum wage is not fair? Lets support all workers for a fair minimum wage. End tip culture. It is far from clear that getting rid of tips is good for tipped workers, at the end of the day [1]. Basically, there may be unintended consequences. Also, due to a quirk of tax law, getting rid of tips would result in higher total prices. This is because we don't pay sales tax on the tip currently. If this payment were built into the cost of the meal, sales tax would go up. Not a huge difference, but it adds up — and restaurants are low-margin businesses to begin with. 1: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/get-rid-of-tips-and-lose-your-best-servers/2018/02/28/0756866c-1b32-11e8-98f5-ceecfa8741b6_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.4798e30af06a https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/get-rid-of-tips-and-...
    • ggm 8y ago
      I don't buy this argument. I understand he (and I guess you) believe it, but I think this argument doesn't reflect real world experience from non-tipping culture (I mean about net loss of high end staff) If you don't pay your wait staff above-award and want to keep the best, I think you need to think about their value to your business. The tax cost part, I recognize. I am not blind to unintended consequences, but this one? Not big enough to make me feel like reversing course. I'm reminded of a great "bill tidy" cartoon from the 1970s of a porter in a USSR hotel holding his tip-hand out to the guy he's just carried bags into the room while speaking into a not very hidden microphone tipping is evil and diminishes the dignity of labour
• joelrunyon 8y ago
  I really don't like how this is moving from just food-service workers to pretty much everything. The #1 reason I liked Uber/Lyft was you didn't have to tip. Then the margins didn't make sense and now they ask for it. I shouldn't have to subsidize those rides with tips because you're not paying the driver enough. Just charge me the price you need to charge me.
  • AviationAtom 8y ago
    I'm glad you acknowledge they don't pay the drivers enough. I think most of them don't realize what the wear and tear on their vehicles costs, and just get giddy when they start seeing the money come in.
• whalesalad 8y ago
  It feels like a dark pattern for sure. I tip for service and service only. I regularly hit the no tip button on the new interfaces. I wish I didn’t have to worry about tipping... I miss Uber when it abstracted that away. But alas it only works when they compensate drivers properly. Tipping in general sucks. I feel like most of the time it’s manipulating customers into squeezing a little extra on the top. Just raise your prices.
• freditup 8y ago
  I am confused as to why it's standard to tip some low-paid workers but not others: * Fast-food workers do just as much work as coffee shop employees, why not tip them? * Workers at clothing stores take the time to fold your clothes nicely and box/bag them for you - why not tip them? * Grocery store checkout clerks in the city carefully bag up your goods so you can carry them with just two hands - why not tip them? * The guy collecting trash from the streets to keep them clean is helping everyone, why not tip him? It does seem at some point the tipping system will grow so large it'll collapse in on itself. Sadly though, places that have tried to move that direction, in NYC at least, seem to have struggled [0][1]. [0]: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/05/why-restaurants-walk-back-no-tipping-policies/482151/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/05/why-res... [1]: http://gothamist.com/2017/10/19/danny_meyer_no_tipping.php http://gothamist.com/2017/10/19/danny_meyer_no_tipping.php
  • debt 8y ago
    You can tip whomever you want; that’s pretty much how it starts anyway.
    • smelendez 8y ago
      That's not really true, though! Some stores have policies against tipping, and it can be awkward if you try to tip someone who's not allowed to accept it. Coat/bag check workers are a good example: most concert halls seem to encourage you to tip maybe $1 when you get your coat back, but a lot of museum coat check workers will refuse to accept a tip and may get flustered if you offer one. I've never seen anyone try to tip in McDonald's or Old Navy, but I don't think you'd be doing anyone any favors if you tried. The cashier would probably be more worried about getting in trouble for handling the situation wrong than grateful.
  • jldugger 8y ago
    FWIW, tipped workers typically work for an hourly wage lower than the minimum wage, and are expected to earn the rest from tips. Most of the jobs you're talking about are not in the tipping wage category, and management just has to monitor carefully. Fast food has tons of computers to do exactly that, and even department stores have secret shoppers and cameras to observe staff. Grocery stores have crazy levels of cameras to monitor staff; I'd say about 70 percent of the cameras are pointed at the cashier (the remainder at you as you wander the store to calculate dwell time and deter theft). Trash collection I don't even know the company behind it let alone ever seen the driver. I assume they have GPS and cameras now that communities have moved to those machine arm trucks. Tipping is a sort of economic hack; you the customer are responsible for evaluating service, and punishing inept or even just lazy service. You're the final buyer of the service, so in a way it's fair; just atypically lassiez-faire method versus the usual social hierarchy of companies paying managers to supervise service workers. I figure if tipping dies, it will be because there's a separate economic hack undermining it. When you live somewhere where restaurants start and fail every month, the cost of a bad tipper reputation is pretty low. And if you adopt an upfront tip model to combat this, you're people's losing good faith as the fee-for-service model no longer applies -- which this article directly discusses. All of which puts us in the awkward position of trying to figure out whether the lunch spot we visit is paying its staff a tipped wage without any actual service -- no bussing, no setting, and just a beeper to let you know you should grab your food.
• raldi 8y ago
  Related: > A 2009 study by the [NYC] Taxi and Limousine Commission found that gratuities rose after cabbies adopted a credit card system that prompted riders to tip; their tips jumped from an average of about 10 percent when all fares were paid in cash to about 22 percent on card transactions. http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2014/03/starbucks_square_and_e_payments_do_new_point_of_payment_systems_increase.html http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2014/03/star...
  • timr 8y ago
    It definitely makes a difference for me. Now that I use the app, I have a default tip percentage that I no longer think about. It was a lot harder to mentally justify tipping when I had to do the math in my head. Completely irrational, but real.
  • BonesJustice 8y ago
    Considering the screen only has presets for 20%, 25%, and 30%, I’m not at all surprised.
• raldi 8y ago
  To throw travelers a bone, regulations should require the screens to show the average tip. In fact, it should be required to be the default.
  • mrep 8y ago
    That sounds awesome. One of the guys I knew in college was from Jamaica and literally never tipped anyone until senior year because he didn't know that you were supposed to. Now all these other industries are trying to add tipping as a custom and and I have no idea who that actually goes to, what they make without it nor how much other people tip.
• rosege 8y ago
  When I was last in the US I noticed that restaurants generally seemed to charge similar amounts to my expensive city (Sydney) but that was before the tip. So is it a lot more profitable to run a restaurant in the US because you essentially offload the labour cost from the meal to the tip but can keep the meal a similar price? Also if its something that is generally always expected to be 20% then why not charge extra and pay your staff normally rather than having this extra layer to potentially mislead diners?
  • jen729w 8y ago
    We (Melbourne) noticed the opposite: the US seems really cheap, until you actually get the bill and add on sales tax and tip; then, turns out, it’s about the same as here.
• Rainymood 8y ago
  I hate the tipping system ("tipping") in the US. It's so forced and only benefits the business owner. You should not have to rely on uncertain tips to make up a minimum wage that is just stupid. Both parties keep the system alive, someone has to break the cycle.
  • smelendez 8y ago
    It's a mess but hard to fix. Customers can't unilaterally "break the cycle." They'd effectively just be underpaying for service. Some restaurant owners have added automatic service charges or marked up prices to include service, but that's a mess too. If they mark up prices and customers don't realize service is included, they'll think the prices are too high and go elsewhere. If they add a mandatory service charge, customers might feel ripped off and will worry the fee doesn't really go to the servers or that they should still leave a tip. Restaurant owners basically need to conspicuously state on the menu that service is included and the money will go to servers (and bussers, bartenders, etc.). But if you're a restaurant owner, do you want your menu dominated by a statement about your labor policies? There's a reason it's only really been tried by big name celebrity chefs, not your corner diner or Thai place.
    • Rainymood 8y ago
      >Customers can't unilaterally "break the cycle." They'd effectively just be underpaying for service. Why not? If ALL customers stopped tipping. This would create a wave of disguntled employees who can't make rent and/or pay the bills. This sucks, of course, but if customers keep chugging at it refusing to pay then eventually someone will try to sue some business owner and then something will have to change. That's my opinion at least. People who tip keep the system alive. Also, I think it's weird for prices to be pre-tax. It's like you pay 10$ for a burger, oh wait 10% sales tax and a 15% tip and suddenly you pay 12.56$. edit: >Some restaurant owners have added automatic service charges or marked up prices to include service, but that's a mess too. If they mark up prices and customers don't realize service is included, they'll think the prices are too high and go elsewhere. If they add a mandatory service charge, customers might feel ripped off and will worry the fee doesn't really go to the servers or that they should still leave a tip. If a business has the following on his menu or signpost "We do NOT accept tips. We pay our servers a living wage. Our prices are a bit higher because of this!" will surely win some of my business. Once again, tipping should be for extra service, not some mandatory inclusive cost. Because if tipping becomes a mandatory think voluntary or not, why not just include it in the freaking wage, the only ones profiting right now are the business owners as they don't have to pay taxes over the tips (please correct me if I'm wrong about that last statement).
• corvallis 8y ago
  These types of systems have pushed me toward carrying cash again. After feeling manipulated and/or guilty by the tip-requesting interface in situations where I would not normally tip or might throw spare change in a jar (vs the several dollars that's being solicited), I now pay in cash. It gives me the control over the transaction that I had previous to the interfaces' existence and I don't leave the situation with negative feelings.
  • starky 8y ago
    Why feel guilty about it at all? Up here in Canada we have had pin validated transactions for a long time now, and the terminals have had tip prompts at least since we switched to chip and pin. It is just a reflex now when ordering at a counter to select "$ tip" and hit enter for zero tip. Annoying, but when every place seems to do it, it is easy to get over the feelings of manipulation and guilt.
    • corvallis 8y ago
      1) I don't like feeling manipulated, regardless of if I am able to get over it. It's still a negative experience. 2) I belong to an ethnic minority that stereotypically does not tip well (though I don't see this in practice with others of my ethnic group). I don't want any judgment of me or my ethnic group based on if the person handing me my donut figures out, either by looking or by watching my hand motions, whether I tipped. 3) I don't doubt your description of the interface. I experience a similar interface. If I have to be prompted for a tip, then have to decline, then feel manipulated and have to expend mental energy to "get over it" (as you say), have to think about how I'm representing my ethnic group, and contemplate my role in the socioeconomic inequality present between myself and the people in the service industry (as mentioned elsewhere in these comments), well then I'm going to reduce that to a 2 step process where I hand over cash and receive my purchase.
  • gdulli 8y ago
    I hate paying with square so much that I've sometimes paid cash or just lowered a given business' standing in my preference hierarchy so I have to deal with the hassle less often. Everything about it is awkward, not just the tipping. There's no consistency. Every place has a slightly different variation, sometimes you swipe the card on the pad, sometimes insert it into a detached device, sometimes you hand it to the cashier. Writing your name on the pad with your finger is annoying as hell. Pads and screens make some tasks worse in general. Paying used to be so simple, now between chips and square it's become a hassle.
• crazygringo 8y ago
  So many comments here are talking about "defaulting" to tips or to 20% -- but I've never seen that on a Square or Square-type device. It always requires a signature and you have to explicitly press "18%", "20%", "25%" (or similar) or "No tip" button. I would be shocked if I ever saw a tip amount pre-selected for me (unless on a bill for a large party at restaurant, which has been standard for a long time now).
  • mikelward 8y ago
    But those four are the defaults. And for someone just taking your order, the range from 18-25% doesn't match expectations. In those situations, $0.50, $1, or 10% all seem closer to what I'd tip. The point of the article is many people are now choosing 18%, since it's easier, and there's subtle pressure for them to do so.
    • throwaway413 8y ago
      On Square devices, I have observed that if the amount is less than a certain threshold, the tip amounts will be $1, $2, and $3. Past that threshold and it defaults to 15%, 20%, 25%. I live in a downtown area and regularly interact with these systems (2+ times per day on avg).
• hedora 8y ago
  I’m more annoyed about sit down restaurants that automatically add “living wage fees” or “aca coverage costs” to bills before tip. How is this acceptable? What other industry quotes prices that don’t include wage costs, then bill for a higher amount. It’s particularly bad because pulling the percentage out of the tip lowers the percentage of the amount I pay that would go to the server (vs baking the price into the menu cost), so it’s dishonest pricing and also convoluted tip theft.
  • sfRattan 8y ago
    I suspect the practices you describe are politically motivated advertising of prices (and related to price discrimination). To add on a living wage fee is to imply that a lower price available at other restaurants does not pay a living wage. This is a left of center virtue signal: "Eat here, where we make sure our staff earn a living wage." To add on an ACA coverage fee is to imply that, without mandatory healthcare, the restaurant could afford to give you a better price. This is a right of center nudge toward action: "You're in favor of mandatory healthcare, and here is what it's costing you." Both fees are crass, tone-deaf choices but, unless the receipt literally says, "we take this out of the tip," it isn't theft. You're irritated (reasonably) but are choosing to tip less, which seems like picking out the wrong party to punish for restaurant policy. Tip well, and then tell the owner that you won't be eating there again because of the politically motivated fees.
    • lazyasciiart 8y ago
      > To add on a living wage fee is to imply that a lower price available at other restaurants does not pay a living wage. This is a left of center virtue signal: "Eat here, where we make sure our staff earn a living wage." No, it isn't. It's a fee that started showing up in places like Seattle (and probably SF) after the minimum wage was raised, as a right-of-center jerk signal: "I would charge you less and screw my employees harder but the law won't allow me".
      • sfRattan 8y ago
        Well, then they're both right-of-center bird flips... My point remains the same: anyone is right to get pissed of about these fees, but tipping less punishes the server and not the owner who instituted the fees. A better solution is to tip normally, ask to speak to the owner (or a manager), explain you will not be patronizing the business again (and why), and then leave.
• dgzl 8y ago
  I had thought of something profound today: Within about five minutes, I had walked into a smoothie shop, ordered a drink, paid with a $1 tip, received my drink, and walked out. Pretending for a moment that servers actually get their full tip (they don't), and assuming this person makes $10/hr, then by giving them a one dollar tip for five minutes of service, I effectively doubled their earnings for their five minutes. (Their wage is $1/6 minutes, less after taxes) I received very little service, and nothing outside of what "their job" would entail. In fact, at one point the sever was impatient and made me feel rushed. Tipping is an abomination of a custom.
  • stevenwoo 8y ago
    The tip is often split between all the workers on duty, with different splits depending upon position.
    • dgzl 8y ago
      Hence the "let's pretend they get their full tip" statement. It's also taxed, what's your point? Mine still stands.
      • jjeaff 8y ago
        It is only split between the workers not managers or owners. And since they don't really do anything for your tip anyway, seems fine to split it amongst the workers. As for taxes... Only if it's reported. If you tipped in cash, you can be fairly certain that it will not get reported.
• dgzl 8y ago
  I propose that we petition Congress to repeal this law: "Tipping again changed in the 1960s, when Congress agreed that workers could receive a lower minimum wage if a portion of their salary came from tips. The minimum wage for tipped workers is $2.13, which has not changed in over 20 years, as long as those workers receive at least $7.25 in tips per hour. Saru Jayaraman, author of Behind the Kitchen Door, explains that a minimum wage of $2.13 means that their full wage will go toward taxes and forces tipped workers to live off their tips." [1] [1] https://www.tripsavvy.com/a-brief-history-of-tipping-1329249 https://www.tripsavvy.com/a-brief-history-of-tipping-1329249
  • matthewowen 8y ago
    As a point of information: there is no reduced minimum wage for tipped workers in California. Wait staff etc must still receive full minimum wage in addition to any tips they receive.
    • RickS 8y ago
      I don't think that changes the expectations on the waitstaff side, or the sense of obligation on the tippers' side. The mountain that needs to be climbed here is about narrative/social norms, not real economics. Unfortunately I think that bigger than shifting social norms will be shifting customer price expectations. If you kill tipping, expect wages to go up, even in CA, as staff expect (and perhaps legitimately require) a certain level of income, regardless of origin. It's a little like subsidized gas. The US has been underpaying for gas for so long that I've got no idea what political martyr would try to put that cat in the bag. When a market distortion lasts so long it becomes part of the social fabric, it's real hard to just kill off. I'd love to hear about times countries have been able to pull this off at scale.
      • CoreDumpling 8y ago
        Norway and Singapore tax the crap out of cars and are still doing fine.
        • 8y ago
• dgzl 8y ago
  Is anyone else occasionally afraid to eat at restaurants if a) the tip is established before the food is made and b) you didn't tip well or at all? I have a friend who tells me horror stories of foul behaviour performed with the food by the chef in these situations.
• tdurden 8y ago
  I was just coerced. I spent a decent amount of money to get my car detailed, and was presented with a Square app prompting for a tip. I did tip because it felt like not doing so was somehow improper. After thinking about it, I will not do this again.
• jjeaff 8y ago
  I am frustrated with articles like this that keep pushing a higher and higher "acceptable" tip percentage. 20% is not normal. 20% is very high for very good service. 15 years ago, 15% was normal. Now the minimum on these pos pos's is 18. I tip 15% and no more unless service was well above normal. And I have no qualms about hitting 0 for anything that isn't sit down service, including Uber and Lyft. We have to fight this tip creep or we will live in a world where every service employee is paid with 100% tips by those that feel guilty enough to pay it while all the cheapskates freeload.
  • RickS 8y ago
    "tip creep" is a really great term for what's going on. Services that don't have tips encoded in wage law (like restaurants [mostly]) are either passing along large scale pricing errors, or begging for arbitrary, subjective price increases beyond what's needed to run the business. Neither of those should be met with a smile.
  • fiblye 8y ago
    When I was a kid, 10% was fairly normal. Last time I went to a restaurant in the US, I got scolded because I refused to tip when the waitress brought my food out cold and never once gave me a refill. I'm apparently "supposed" to tip 25% these days. When people do their job, I'm okay with tipping. But I'm not OK with tipping based on the price of the meal. A person who works at a $70/plate restaurant and keeps filling my glass of water up with ice before I can finish it, making it unbearably cold, really isn't doing anything better than an overworked waiter in a $7/plate dirty hole in the wall shack. The skills don't differ (and I'm honestly often impressed with how skill-less waiters are at high-end American restaurants--they're worse than typical servers in any other country) and they're not the ones making the meals. Just bring me a drink that's at least 90% drink and not 90% ice, bring my food out before it's cold, and get me a refill within a few minutes of running out and I have no trouble dropping $10 or $20--the price of the meal doesn't factor into that. Fail to do that, and you're getting nothing--I don't care how expensive the meal is that the chef prepared, but you had zero involvement so you're not entitled to that cash. But I'm glad I'm not living in a place with a toxic restaurant culture, so it's not my problem anymore. :)
• safgasCVS 8y ago
  Shifting the burden of paying employees to the customer via guilt and coercion is what's wrong here. Customers should not be made to feel like an asshole for not appreciating seeing their quoted price go up 20%. Lobbying Congress? Start with not supporting dickheads who do this. Charge 20% more and pay your employees properly
  • RickS 8y ago
    A number of restaurants have tried this, and more broadly, JCP tried something of the same sort (charge the "real" price, do away with the manipulative abstractions). You start hemorrhaging customers. People's baselines for how much food costs are old and calcified, and customers flat out can't be counted on to act rationally and in their economic self interest. https://abcnews.go.com/Business/jc-penney-admits-marking-prices-order-customers-discounted/story?id=19323843 https://abcnews.go.com/Business/jc-penney-admits-marking-pri...
    • safgasCVS 8y ago
      I'm aware of this research - it's a culture shift but it's not an immutable law of gravity. You need customers to start demanding this - it won't happen top down with restaurants.
• mnm1 8y ago
  The employees who don't do anything yet think it's right to shame others into tipping them for nothing are the ones who should be ashamed. After accidentally tipping a few times for no reason, I have made it a priority to resist this bullshit. It's not my place as a customer to pay more for no reason just because most jobs in this country pay shit and I'm supposed to feel pity for the employees. Yeah the whole situation sucks and we should eliminate tipping altogether and have a livable minimum wage, but this is one way workers are not going to get sympathy. We can all fight for a proper minimum wage or they can nickel and dime the rest of us into not caring about their situation due to this kind of bullshit. I for one am going to specifically make sure not to tip wherever no service exists and whenever asked to before any service rendered, even if there will be a service rendered. I hope others have enough common sense and character to do the same.
• Phantasmagoria 8y ago
  I used to work in a couple of kitchens. Waiters easily made 4x what I made working less hours. A lot of those tips went to cocaine and nights out. If I was lucky they'd offer a line.
• simulate 8y ago
  It's very difficult to change tipping expectations. Uber unsuccessfully tried to maintain no tipping through its app. After driver complaints[1] and pressure from NYC[2] and others, Uber added tipping. [1] https://www.wired.com/2016/05/uber-wants-to-save-us-from-racism/ https://www.wired.com/2016/05/uber-wants-to-save-us-from-rac... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/17/nyregion/new-york-city-uber-tipping-app.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/17/nyregion/new-york-city-ub...
• ironjunkie 8y ago
  I'm convinced that those systems have deliberately be made to push the customer to tip (more) and therefore increase the transaction fee for the payment operator (Square most of the time). Most of the workdays, I go eat lunch at "order at the counter" places. The Square ipad is directly visible to everyone behind me in the line as they can all see that I put "No tip". More than once, I have seen people look back to check if other people in the line would see their choice, and subsequently change it to a "socially acceptable" tip of 15%.
  • ams6110 8y ago
    I never tip at an order-at-the-counter restaurant. If I place my order at the counter, and get my own drink, find my own table, etc., I'm not sure what there is to tip for.
• Paul-ish 8y ago
  I've started using cash where possible when I see these terminals. It's sometimes the easiest way to avoid the prompt altogether.
• tvh 8y ago
  There needs to be a ban and removal of the tipping requirement altogether. I know, easier said than done. I'm just saying, many European countries do not have tips embedded in their culture, and that's a good thing. If I go to a sit-down restaurant, I'm already being marked up for that - before tipping. If I have some food delivered, I'm paying for the delivery service, or I am being marked up on the item's price - before tipping. By doing that, we ensure that the salaries of employees are legally decent (rather than them counting on unpredictable extras to make ends meet). This forces the employer not to direct all of the margin into his own pocket while squeezing the employee's salary. I personally have never tipped anyone unless I was excessively well catered for, or someone went out of their way to enhance the experience I was already paying for in the first place. That's what tipping must be, not forcing the customer to actually compensate for your employees being underpaid. I'm sorry for anyone who has a lower salary than normal because the boss expects that tips will bridge the gap. If needed, I'm much happier to pay a higher price (relatively). Indeed, I propose that most of the time, the prices are already including all costs and the margin, and that the owners direct the whole margin to them while squeezing the employees out of it and having them rely on tips to make a decent living. The solution to low salaries is not tipping and guilting people into paying extra cost for no reason whatsoever and for something that's already marked up to the appropriate level, it is better salaries framed by law or contract.
  • TheCoelacanth 8y ago
    How do you ban a social expectation? Tipping is never required, it is just socially expected.
    • tvh 8y ago
      Good point. To answer your question blatantly: by law. Not saying "you can't ever tip". But more to frame the employer/employee contract and prevent the employee relying on tips, and instead having a contractual/legal framework for his salary. Let me be clear in saying however that I'm not a fan of shaping culture changes by legal requirements. So I'm second guessing myself a little too now, but I really think the culturally accepted tipping expectation is detrimental overall as per my original comment.
• dev_north_east 8y ago
  Was in a restaurant recently, asked for the bill and when it came it already had a 10% tip included in it and a big spiel about how the company wanted to treat their staff right and that if you wanted to opt out, you could... What cheek. Never going back there again and I've spread the word to my friends of mine. I'm UK based by and by. Keep that nonsense in the US.
• trocadero 8y ago
  Amazon Whole Foods delivery is the worst offender in this area. You finish your order and on the confirmation screen they add a tiny little line item for a preselected 10% tip. Suddenly your "free" delivery is now $15.
• maym86 8y ago
  In this scenario, especially in SF as a tech worker, you should feel guilty if you can afford to spare a dollar for someone on minimum wage for a tip but are reaching for the zero button. Having the iPad highlight your stingyness is not a problem with the technology.
  • plants 8y ago
    Couldn't agree more. Don't like tipping an extra dollar for a coffee once in a while? Make it at home. If you can't spare $15 a week to tip service employees when you're sporting a six-figure salary, shame on you. If you're a regular at a coffeeshop/fast casual place, another perk of tipping is that you quickly become known as a tipper and employees will come to like you. If you need a selfish reason to tip beyond having the employees like you, sometimes they'll even hook you up with free/discounted stuff. It's easy to just eat out one fewer time a week and redistribute the would-have-been-spent-anyway money as tips to service employees, regardless of how much you think they actually 'did' for you.
• throeuhway 8y ago
  Unfortunately tipping is how these employers are legally permitted to pay their employees Removing the tipping without increasing the pay is even more offensive and from my experience is a predominantly tech phenomenon (1) (1) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17612190 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17612190
• parliament32 8y ago
  My personal rules are: 1) If I pay before I get service (fast food, coffee shop counter, etc), there's no tip. The point of tipping is for service, I'm not pre-tipping you for service you haven't given me yet. 2) The vast majority of the time I tip 15%. It's extremely rare I see service that's outstandingly poor or outstandingly good. Most are just average.
• eivindga 8y ago
  Tipping should be banned completely. It's discriminatory, feeds into the black economy and is f annoying. Also, its linked to higher rates of corruption: https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/faculty-research/publications/here-tip-prosocial-gratuities-are-linked-corruption https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/faculty-research/publications/h...
• danjoc 8y ago
  How do you know who gets the tip? Panera used to refuse tips. Now I go in and I'm presented with tip amounts at the point of sale. Who get's that tip? The cashier? The person in back making my food? The person who comes by and busses my table? Or none of the above? Is Panera just pocketing what I'm willing to throw in extra? Maybe it is market research, they figure if I'm willing to tip 20% instead of 15%, then the should charge more for the sandwich?
• Sohcahtoa82 8y ago
  The worst is when I see this at a self-serve frozen yogurt shop. That one really blows my mind. I literally filled the cup with froyo and all the fixins myself. My entire interaction with the employee is placing it on their scale and giving them money. Why would I tip that?
• avastmick 8y ago
  I live in either NZ, the UK or China, depending on work. None of these have a tipping culture. It's the cultural and psychological aspects that are fascinating, particularly the comments that list proof that in the US, if outlets show real prices, i.e. those that the customer will actually pay, including tax and gratuities, people go elsewhere, to outlets that give a false sense of economy. Personally, I've found that when in the US I felt the food to be cheap, but when I pay the bill, the actual cost to be largely equivalent to other western countries. But, I still harbour the irrational feeling that the US is cheaper, even though the receipts I submit don't reflect this "feeling". Tipping (and non listed taxes) is the 99c cost point writ large. To me it seems, all other considerations (discomfort, worker's rights, fairness, etc.) are overwhelmed by the lower price ticket. Thoughts?