4 ms·

Agree 100%. The original article assumes you're going to go through the entire interview process before discussing a number? What happens if the delta between

Agree 100%. The original article assumes you're going to go through the entire interview process before discussing a number? What happens if the delta between you and the hiring company isn't just a few thousand, but multiple tens of thousands? Will negotiating ever bridge that gap? More often than not it will never happen, and everyone has wasted their time...yours especially. In the current US job market, and let's say everywhere except the FAANG companies for reasons of this discussion, we're in a extreme situation where employers need people but aren't willing to move salaries upward to get it. patio11 had it right when he said "The explosive growth of the tech sector keeps average age down and depresses average wages. Compared to industries which existed in materially the same form in 1970, we have a stupidly compressed experience spectrum: 5+ years rounds to "senior." This is not a joke." We're stalemated before we even finish answering the phone call or email from the recruiter. Knowing your jump number is the gatekeeper.

ummonk 8y ago
It's not just the FAANG companies; it's a lot of startups and unicorns that compete with FAANG for talent (though generally Amazon pays less than the rest so it is more like FANG) as well. But it's certainly true that in the broader US job market, everyone is complaining about a shortage in job-seekers, but refusing to raise wages to attract the employees they so desperately need. In fact, last time I checked, wages went up by less than inflation, year over year. There seems to be some sort of reverse unionization where employers are keeping wages sticky and unwilling to raise wages even when doing so is necessary.
- scarface74 8y ago
  All the money in the world is not going to help the immediate problem of finding developers on the high end if the pool is smaller than the demand. In the long run, the pool should increase if the salary is higher, but it will still take time to enlarge the pool. It also doesn’t help that the US is becoming very unfriendly to immigration that would enlarge the pool.
mdorazio 8y ago
> we're in a extreme situation where employers need people but aren't willing to move salaries upward to get it This line nails it and is true for so many companies now it's painful. Just a few weeks ago I was trying to help a hiring manager fix his candidate pipeline for qualified people and when I dug in, his target salary was the same as it was in 2010. I think the fundamental problem is that outside of tech, companies are completely unwilling to potentially sacrifice corporate profits to raise wages. Instead, they'll explore every possible alternative from outsourcing to "contract-to-hire" (spoiler: they'll never hire) to underpaid H1B to piling more responsibilities onto fewer people before even considering bumping pay up. The second chart in [1] summarizes the situation nicely. [1] https://www.wealthdaily.com/articles/the-real-culprit/6276 https://www.wealthdaily.com/articles/the-real-culprit/6276
- scarface74 8y ago
  they'll explore every possible alternative from outsourcing to "contract-to-hire" (spoiler: they'll never hire) What’s wrong with contract to hire or straight contract? I’ve always made more on contract jobs - even taking into account unpaid time off - than I could have made with the same skillset as a fulltime employee. It helps that I don’t care about health benefits. I get those through my wife’s very stable government job.
  - joezydeco 8y ago
    You answered your own question here. It’s all about benefits.
    - scarface74 8y ago
      Health benefits is just another expense that you should calculate into your required hourly rate if you need it. We aren’t talking about exploited (not being sarcastic) relatively low paid employees. It’s no different than calculating your self employment taxes and factoring in unpaid time off when taking your required hourly rate into account. I paid insurance out of pocket during my first contracting gig via CORBA - that was before I was married. Most contractors I know either buy through the ACA exchanges or through thier contracting company.
JimDabell 8y ago
This also struck me as suffering from severe valley myopia. > What happens if the delta between you and the hiring company isn't just a few thousand, but multiple tens of thousands? Will negotiating ever bridge that gap? More often than not it will never happen, and everyone has wasted their time...yours especially. This has happened to me on a few occasions. The bottom line is that there's a wide range of a) what companies are able to pay and b) what people will work for. The end result is that without any malfeasance by either party, there are vacancies and candidates that are hopelessly mismatched with each other in terms of salary even though they are a match in terms of job description. I've had to cut a few conversations short as they were – not entirely unreasonably – trying to hire at ~50% of what I was already earning at the time. If I waited until the end of the interview process before discussing salary ranges, I'd be wasting an awful lot of my time and theirs. By all means, get them to blink first if you want. But unless you want to waste a lot of time, don't wait until the last minute before discussing salary.

ummonk 8y ago

It's not just the FAANG companies; it's a lot of startups and unicorns that compete with FAANG for talent (though generally Amazon pays less than the rest so it is more like FANG) as well. But it's certainly true that in the broader US job market, everyone is complaining about a shortage in job-seekers, but refusing to raise wages to attract the employees they so desperately need. In fact, last time I checked, wages went up by less than inflation, year over year. There seems to be some sort of reverse unionization where employers are keeping wages sticky and unwilling to raise wages even when doing so is necessary.

scarface74 8y ago
All the money in the world is not going to help the immediate problem of finding developers on the high end if the pool is smaller than the demand. In the long run, the pool should increase if the salary is higher, but it will still take time to enlarge the pool. It also doesn’t help that the US is becoming very unfriendly to immigration that would enlarge the pool.

mdorazio 8y ago

> we're in a extreme situation where employers need people but aren't willing to move salaries upward to get it This line nails it and is true for so many companies now it's painful. Just a few weeks ago I was trying to help a hiring manager fix his candidate pipeline for qualified people and when I dug in, his target salary was the same as it was in 2010. I think the fundamental problem is that outside of tech, companies are completely unwilling to potentially sacrifice corporate profits to raise wages. Instead, they'll explore every possible alternative from outsourcing to "contract-to-hire" (spoiler: they'll never hire) to underpaid H1B to piling more responsibilities onto fewer people before even considering bumping pay up. The second chart in [1] summarizes the situation nicely. [1] https://www.wealthdaily.com/articles/the-real-culprit/6276 https://www.wealthdaily.com/articles/the-real-culprit/6276

scarface74 8y ago
they'll explore every possible alternative from outsourcing to "contract-to-hire" (spoiler: they'll never hire) What’s wrong with contract to hire or straight contract? I’ve always made more on contract jobs - even taking into account unpaid time off - than I could have made with the same skillset as a fulltime employee. It helps that I don’t care about health benefits. I get those through my wife’s very stable government job.
- joezydeco 8y ago
  You answered your own question here. It’s all about benefits.
  - scarface74 8y ago
    Health benefits is just another expense that you should calculate into your required hourly rate if you need it. We aren’t talking about exploited (not being sarcastic) relatively low paid employees. It’s no different than calculating your self employment taxes and factoring in unpaid time off when taking your required hourly rate into account. I paid insurance out of pocket during my first contracting gig via CORBA - that was before I was married. Most contractors I know either buy through the ACA exchanges or through thier contracting company.

JimDabell 8y ago

This also struck me as suffering from severe valley myopia. > What happens if the delta between you and the hiring company isn't just a few thousand, but multiple tens of thousands? Will negotiating ever bridge that gap? More often than not it will never happen, and everyone has wasted their time...yours especially. This has happened to me on a few occasions. The bottom line is that there's a wide range of a) what companies are able to pay and b) what people will work for. The end result is that without any malfeasance by either party, there are vacancies and candidates that are hopelessly mismatched with each other in terms of salary even though they are a match in terms of job description. I've had to cut a few conversations short as they were – not entirely unreasonably – trying to hire at ~50% of what I was already earning at the time. If I waited until the end of the interview process before discussing salary ranges, I'd be wasting an awful lot of my time and theirs. By all means, get them to blink first if you want. But unless you want to waste a lot of time, don't wait until the last minute before discussing salary.