8 ms·

I was asked once (and in a 15 year career, only once) in an interview "How much do you need, and how much do you want?". This question was almost devastating t

I was asked once (and in a 15 year career, only once) in an interview "How much do you need, and how much do you want?". This question was almost devastating to my otherwise composed and in-the-moment mindset because it was so shockingly frank and signaled a sense of authenticity coming directly from the owner I had never seen before interviewing for tech jobs. I gave them both. He in turn gave me something in the middle, but much closer to the 'want' than I expected. What was more unexpected was how quickly I gave him numbers-they weren't just random numbers, it was a range that I had decided for myself would be the moonshot salary and "thanks but I'll pass" salary floor. It was definitely a first being asked such a critical question in such a tactical way-I appreciated it for what it was. That job lasted for four years until acquisition. We all walked away happy with the accomplishments made, that owner and I are still great friends to this day.

klenwell 8y ago
That's interesting. I could see it having the same effect on me. Glad it worked out for you.
mcgwiz 8y ago
Interesting, but I think how much you need is none of their business at the beginning of your relationship. How much you need depends largely on your healthcare needs, child or adult care needs including educational and developmental needs, current level of debt, etc. There's also a lot of subjectivity involved - do you need to travel across the country to visit your parents? Do you need to take a $1000 webinar to refresh/expand your skills? Do you need gigabit connectivity? Do you need a fuel efficient car? How would he have responded to one of these replies? "I need x dollars annually. That's also how much I want." "How much I need is a personal question that I don't feel comfortable answering. How much I want is ..." Or even, "How much effort do you want me to put into my work? How much effort do you need me to put into my work?"
- komali2 8y ago
  Oh, I hadn't considered that interpretation of "need." I thought of "need" as being "the low floor below which I wouldn't accept an offer," which has nothing to do with how much I "need." I need so much less than I make to stay alive lol, cause I been there before.
- jnovek 8y ago
  "How much effort do you want me to put into my work?" I would hope that a candidate with that sort of response when handed an olive branch would have been screened out of the hiring process at an earlier stage than salary negotiation.
  - marricks 8y ago
    It's very easy to see how the want vs need question could be yet another ploy. For a small company I could be inclined to believe the owner asking the question, but could I ask them if they're living within their wants or needs? I think skepticism can be warranted...
- TheCoelacanth 8y ago
  There is also zero chance that I will accept an offer for the amount I need because there are plenty of people who are willing to pay me more than that.
BurningFrog 8y ago
I've had several very frank salary discussions with people I work for based on mutual trust. It doesn't always happen, but it's perfectly possible.
- throwaway929394 8y ago
  I am afraid that this whole "mutual trust" aspect is missing in the OP and some of the comments. As a person who hires more than quite a few people, I definitely do not like to hire people with the mindset "The company is out to screw me, and I absolutely will stick for the absolute best for myself". If the mindset is established "the company is out to screw me", I actually do not want that person, regardless of how hot they are or how low a pay they want to accept (at that point, it is not about the pay). That spirit of mutual trust has served me well and I believe has served the people I have hired well.
  - 1000units 8y ago
    This is an embarrassing comment. You were wise to use a throwaway. Not a single talented engineer would ever knowingly work for someone who thought expecting and negotiating for fair market compensation is an attitude problem.
    - tomp 8y ago
      I would.
      - 1000units 8y ago
        Self-abnegation can work for people who don't have to worry about their family or retirement.
    - DannyBee 8y ago
      You still don't get it here, and elsewhere. The parent you complain about is completely correct. As they said, if your goal is to view all of this as a completely adversarial relationship, with no reason to do so given to you by me, i probably don't want you. I want people who stop to understand the perspective and situations of other people rather than just assume them. If i'm adversarial, fine, i have no problem with you being the same. But you shouldn't assume it. Interestingly, most talented engineers i know in fact operate the same way. They try to understand the perspective of the other person first (in a meeting, in a negotiation, etc) instead of assuming what it is. Your framing of this viewpoint as an attitude problem does not look great. It's not an attitude problem, it's a way of operating problem. You want to hire people who don't just say "well this other team that isn't doing what i want, so they are clearly stupid, etc". You want to hire the person who says "hey, i wonder why team x feels differently when we both probably want success", and tries to understand their perspective and how they can work together towards some goal. That is what the most talented engineers do.
jnovek 8y ago
The variation of this that I usually ask is, "What salary do you need to maintain a comfortable cost of living and what do you consider a fair salary given your experience and the job requirements?" Depending on my flexibility in the hiring process I may give them a realistic estimate of my budget as well. I want to set the stage for the best information symmetry I can (given the circumstances). This makes salary negotiations closer to a collaborative game than a competitive one. I've even told candidates that their ask is unrealistically low for their experience level. Salary negotiation is the first moment in a trust-based relationship. To me it's very odd that we start that trust-based relationship with a very high-stakes competitive problem that relies heavily on information asymmetry.
- sneak 8y ago
  This is absolutely terrible advice.
- 1000units 8y ago
  It has nothing to do with trust. They just vetted your abilities and decided you can make them money. Now you're fighting for your cut. This also has nothing to do with how much you "need". I need a cabin and an axe. I want half of what I'm bringing to the table, and that's what matters to both of us.
  - DannyBee 8y ago
    What you said is "I don't trust you so i'm instead going to assume you are out to get me and screw me as hard as i let you". That has everything to do with trust.
    - 1000units 8y ago
      A twenty-two year old straight out of school might think you're his friend. I know, and you know, we aren't friends. Don't ask me what I need. That's none of your business. I don't need anything. Tell me what I'm worth to you, then pick a respectful cut. I already have a good idea about the right number, and I'll fight for it, because I've already made people a lot of money. They weren't friends either, but we've sure as hell shaken hands with genuine shit-eating grins on our faces because we're capable professionals, and we didn't pretend. That's the recipe for success.
draw_down 8y ago
If I got that question I’m not sure I’d say it was “frank”. Sure, it’s asking me to be honest, but that isn’t the same thing. Maybe just me, but I don’t think asking the same question in a different way should be expected to elicit a different answer. My bottom number would be whatever it would normally be and the top number would be a bit higher.

klenwell 8y ago

That's interesting. I could see it having the same effect on me. Glad it worked out for you.

mcgwiz 8y ago

Interesting, but I think how much you need is none of their business at the beginning of your relationship. How much you need depends largely on your healthcare needs, child or adult care needs including educational and developmental needs, current level of debt, etc. There's also a lot of subjectivity involved - do you need to travel across the country to visit your parents? Do you need to take a $1000 webinar to refresh/expand your skills? Do you need gigabit connectivity? Do you need a fuel efficient car? How would he have responded to one of these replies? "I need x dollars annually. That's also how much I want." "How much I need is a personal question that I don't feel comfortable answering. How much I want is ..." Or even, "How much effort do you want me to put into my work? How much effort do you need me to put into my work?"

komali2 8y ago
Oh, I hadn't considered that interpretation of "need." I thought of "need" as being "the low floor below which I wouldn't accept an offer," which has nothing to do with how much I "need." I need so much less than I make to stay alive lol, cause I been there before.
jnovek 8y ago
"How much effort do you want me to put into my work?" I would hope that a candidate with that sort of response when handed an olive branch would have been screened out of the hiring process at an earlier stage than salary negotiation.
- marricks 8y ago
  It's very easy to see how the want vs need question could be yet another ploy. For a small company I could be inclined to believe the owner asking the question, but could I ask them if they're living within their wants or needs? I think skepticism can be warranted...
TheCoelacanth 8y ago
There is also zero chance that I will accept an offer for the amount I need because there are plenty of people who are willing to pay me more than that.

BurningFrog 8y ago

I've had several very frank salary discussions with people I work for based on mutual trust. It doesn't always happen, but it's perfectly possible.

throwaway929394 8y ago
I am afraid that this whole "mutual trust" aspect is missing in the OP and some of the comments. As a person who hires more than quite a few people, I definitely do not like to hire people with the mindset "The company is out to screw me, and I absolutely will stick for the absolute best for myself". If the mindset is established "the company is out to screw me", I actually do not want that person, regardless of how hot they are or how low a pay they want to accept (at that point, it is not about the pay). That spirit of mutual trust has served me well and I believe has served the people I have hired well.
- 1000units 8y ago
  This is an embarrassing comment. You were wise to use a throwaway. Not a single talented engineer would ever knowingly work for someone who thought expecting and negotiating for fair market compensation is an attitude problem.
  - tomp 8y ago
    I would.
    - 1000units 8y ago
      Self-abnegation can work for people who don't have to worry about their family or retirement.
  - DannyBee 8y ago
    You still don't get it here, and elsewhere. The parent you complain about is completely correct. As they said, if your goal is to view all of this as a completely adversarial relationship, with no reason to do so given to you by me, i probably don't want you. I want people who stop to understand the perspective and situations of other people rather than just assume them. If i'm adversarial, fine, i have no problem with you being the same. But you shouldn't assume it. Interestingly, most talented engineers i know in fact operate the same way. They try to understand the perspective of the other person first (in a meeting, in a negotiation, etc) instead of assuming what it is. Your framing of this viewpoint as an attitude problem does not look great. It's not an attitude problem, it's a way of operating problem. You want to hire people who don't just say "well this other team that isn't doing what i want, so they are clearly stupid, etc". You want to hire the person who says "hey, i wonder why team x feels differently when we both probably want success", and tries to understand their perspective and how they can work together towards some goal. That is what the most talented engineers do.

jnovek 8y ago

The variation of this that I usually ask is, "What salary do you need to maintain a comfortable cost of living and what do you consider a fair salary given your experience and the job requirements?" Depending on my flexibility in the hiring process I may give them a realistic estimate of my budget as well. I want to set the stage for the best information symmetry I can (given the circumstances). This makes salary negotiations closer to a collaborative game than a competitive one. I've even told candidates that their ask is unrealistically low for their experience level. Salary negotiation is the first moment in a trust-based relationship. To me it's very odd that we start that trust-based relationship with a very high-stakes competitive problem that relies heavily on information asymmetry.

sneak 8y ago
This is absolutely terrible advice.
1000units 8y ago
It has nothing to do with trust. They just vetted your abilities and decided you can make them money. Now you're fighting for your cut. This also has nothing to do with how much you "need". I need a cabin and an axe. I want half of what I'm bringing to the table, and that's what matters to both of us.
- DannyBee 8y ago
  What you said is "I don't trust you so i'm instead going to assume you are out to get me and screw me as hard as i let you". That has everything to do with trust.
  - 1000units 8y ago
    A twenty-two year old straight out of school might think you're his friend. I know, and you know, we aren't friends. Don't ask me what I need. That's none of your business. I don't need anything. Tell me what I'm worth to you, then pick a respectful cut. I already have a good idea about the right number, and I'll fight for it, because I've already made people a lot of money. They weren't friends either, but we've sure as hell shaken hands with genuine shit-eating grins on our faces because we're capable professionals, and we didn't pretend. That's the recipe for success.

draw_down 8y ago

If I got that question I’m not sure I’d say it was “frank”. Sure, it’s asking me to be honest, but that isn’t the same thing. Maybe just me, but I don’t think asking the same question in a different way should be expected to elicit a different answer. My bottom number would be whatever it would normally be and the top number would be a bit higher.