9 ms·

In most verticals marketers will have a set of ads for different demographics: say gay, suburban, latino, black, Spanish-speaking, etc. Each of those campaigns

In most verticals marketers will have a set of ads for different demographics: say gay, suburban, latino, black, Spanish-speaking, etc. Each of those campaigns will have different creative: for example, a real estate ad targeted to latinos will have an image showing a smiling latino couple. I can understand why the marketer would not want to show this creative to white, black, or asians -- given that they're targeting creative for a different group of people. This sort of practice seems fairly benign -- it's not about denying housing, but about targeting creative for different subgroups. As a gay person, I see this all over the web. Smiling happy gay people buying cars or real estate or whatever. I imagine that behind each of these ads straight people have been de-selected for seeing this ad. But that doesn't mean these advertisers hate straight people or would deny a straight customer. It just means that for that specific ad and creative they were targeting gay people.

dibstern 8y ago
The problem is total exclusion, not targeting for sub-groups by campaign. If they wanted to target sub-groups by campaign, they could offer a service to advertise differently to different subgroups. But that’s not at all what’s happening - this is an exclusion of some subgroups, where the only feasible reason for their exclusion is their demographic, rather than the good/service being sold or the type of advertisement.
throwawaymath 8y ago
What you're describing makes sense, but would it not also be possible with inclusion-based targeting instead of exclusion-based targeting?
- nostromo 8y ago
  Is there a difference?
  - throwawaymath 8y ago
    I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding is that inclusionary targeting is legal whereas exclusionary targeting is not, and exclusionary targeting is what's happening. Inclusionary targeting uses logic of the form, "This user corresponds to subgroup A; load content specialized for subgroup A." Exclusionary targeting is of the form, "This user corresponds to subgroup A; do not load any content for this user." If you'd like to target a specific demographic you can do so using either inclusionary or exclusionary targeting. Only one of those systems also allows you to explicitly exclude one or more groups rather than just target a subset of groups. Your example seems to be a very charitable interpretation of how exclusionary targeting could be used. There's (probably) nothing wrong with it if it's used that way. But you could just as easily use the system you described to prevent a variety of protected demographics from being able to see the advertisement whatsoever.
    - scarface74 8y ago
      It’s not even that deep or complicated. You can target however you want to except when it comes to housing. They can’t claim ignorance. When I use to run ads as a landlord in the paper, the paper had specific guidelines in their real estate section and would deny any ad that broke the guideline. https://www.ajc.com/visitor_agreement_mobile_old/ https://www.ajc.com/visitor_agreement_mobile_old/ Equal Housing Opportunity. Any real estate advertising on this website is subject to the Fair Housing Act, which makes it illegal to advertise "any preference limitation or discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, handicap, familial status or national origin, or an intention to make any such preference, limitation or discrimination." Georgia state law also forbids discrimination based on these factors, except that it forbids discrimination based on "disability" rather than "handicap." Familial status includes children under the age of 18 living with parents or legal custodians; pregnant women and people securing custody of children under 18. To complain of discrimination call the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development at 800-669-9777.
      - CydeWeys 8y ago
        Anyone who's ever even looked for a roommate on Craigslist has seen all this information, too. I'm actually kind of flabbergasted that Craigslist handles it correctly and Facebook does not, just given how much more competent Facebook seems based on contrasting the look of the two sites.
sofaofthedamned 8y ago
Upvoted. I'm not saying there isn't an issue (my spidey sense says there is) but taking an advert in isolation doesn't prove anything.
Kenji 8y ago
> As a gay person, I see this all over the web. Smiling happy gay people buying cars or real estate or whatever. Good lord. Does that mean that so many advertisers track your activities so thoroughly that they figured out you're gay?
- chickenfries 8y ago
  In the case of Facebook, you either put this in your profile, or the kinds of pages and events that you like and interact with will give this away. Not saying that it's not creepy, just that with the way we use the internet these days, it's not an epic feat for an advertiser to figure this out given the amount of data we put out there.
  - danmg 8y ago
    Actually in this case it's pretty easy. If you're gay and use dating apps, and didn't opt out of application usage history in your settings, the presence of those apps in your history will flag you as having that interest to advertisers. The google analytics get resold/repackaged, either directly or indirectly through data brokers, to Facebook. Facebook suddenly starts displaying ads for expensive mens' underwear.
    - ryanwaggoner 8y ago
      Really? Google Analytics repackages and sells user data to third party data brokers?
    - rootusrootus 8y ago
      Ha, I get ads on FB for expensive men's underwear. Their algorithms clearly have room for improvement.
- imron 8y ago
  > Does that mean that so many advertisers track your activities so thoroughly that they figured out you're gay? There was a thing a few years back where Target was able to determine if someone was pregnant based on their purchasing habits [0]. Facebook, Google and others gather and track orders of magnitude more information than Target could ever dream of can certainly figure out if you are gay, straight, and anything else. 0: https://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/19/magazine/shopping-habits.html https://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/19/magazine/shopping-habits....
skywhopper 8y ago
You're missing the point, though, which is not that the advertisers can target the models in the ads, but so they can choose _not_ to show ads to "undesireable" people, like people with kids, or of a certain ethnicity or religion. This sort of practice is an extremely pervasive problem that has led to enormous amounts of systemic inequality.
- dennisgorelik 8y ago
  What is the problem with not showing rental ads to people with kids? If landlord does not want to rent out to people with kids - I (as a parent with kids) do NOT want to see that ad. How forcing landlord to advertise to categories they do not want to serve -- would help to anybody?
  - cup 8y ago
    Is this a serious question? Are you really that insulated?
  - trashcan 8y ago
    The problem is that it is illegal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Housing_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Housing_Act You can't choose to rent based on familial status.
    - cabaalis 8y ago
      I understand and agree that it's wrong. On a purely theoretical level, I think the question is philosophical. They're not turning these people away, just not trying to draw them in. This happens elsewhere in society, right or wrong. Examples: gay bars, "black" churches, biker establishments.
      - scarface74 8y ago
        It’s is specifically illegal to advertise real estate based on such criteria. https://nationalfairhousing.org/responsibleadvertising/ https://nationalfairhousing.org/responsibleadvertising/
craigzucchini 8y ago
I think the bigger problem, that you haven't addressed here, is the ongoing prevalence of the word "creative" used as a noun.
- ThrustVectoring 8y ago
  "creative" used as a noun is perfectly standard inside the advertising industry.
  - brennebeck 8y ago
    While true, I’ll admit to chuckling a bit.
scarface74 8y ago
There are specific laws about how you can advertise real estate for sale or rent. Every real estate agent and landlord knows the rules. https://www.thebalance.com/fair-housing-act-violation-1798892 https://www.thebalance.com/fair-housing-act-violation-179889...
jypepin 8y ago
That is an interesting point, kind of on the edge I guess. If Facebook really wanted to do the right thing while allowing this kind of multi-targeting, they should then build something such as segments in the same campaign. You want to target only a specific group that, under the law, can't be targeted/avoided? Fine, but then you have to create at least 3 segments on this ad to target at least 3 different groups, to prove that you are not discriminating. A segment would be a version of the ad (design, copy, etc) + targeted group. edit: my point here is that it should be Facebook's responsibility to make it difficult for publisher to post illegal ads, not the other way around.

dibstern 8y ago

The problem is total exclusion, not targeting for sub-groups by campaign. If they wanted to target sub-groups by campaign, they could offer a service to advertise differently to different subgroups. But that’s not at all what’s happening - this is an exclusion of some subgroups, where the only feasible reason for their exclusion is their demographic, rather than the good/service being sold or the type of advertisement.

throwawaymath 8y ago

What you're describing makes sense, but would it not also be possible with inclusion-based targeting instead of exclusion-based targeting?

nostromo 8y ago
Is there a difference?
- throwawaymath 8y ago
  I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding is that inclusionary targeting is legal whereas exclusionary targeting is not, and exclusionary targeting is what's happening. Inclusionary targeting uses logic of the form, "This user corresponds to subgroup A; load content specialized for subgroup A." Exclusionary targeting is of the form, "This user corresponds to subgroup A; do not load any content for this user." If you'd like to target a specific demographic you can do so using either inclusionary or exclusionary targeting. Only one of those systems also allows you to explicitly exclude one or more groups rather than just target a subset of groups. Your example seems to be a very charitable interpretation of how exclusionary targeting could be used. There's (probably) nothing wrong with it if it's used that way. But you could just as easily use the system you described to prevent a variety of protected demographics from being able to see the advertisement whatsoever.
  - scarface74 8y ago
    It’s not even that deep or complicated. You can target however you want to except when it comes to housing. They can’t claim ignorance. When I use to run ads as a landlord in the paper, the paper had specific guidelines in their real estate section and would deny any ad that broke the guideline. https://www.ajc.com/visitor_agreement_mobile_old/ https://www.ajc.com/visitor_agreement_mobile_old/ Equal Housing Opportunity. Any real estate advertising on this website is subject to the Fair Housing Act, which makes it illegal to advertise "any preference limitation or discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, handicap, familial status or national origin, or an intention to make any such preference, limitation or discrimination." Georgia state law also forbids discrimination based on these factors, except that it forbids discrimination based on "disability" rather than "handicap." Familial status includes children under the age of 18 living with parents or legal custodians; pregnant women and people securing custody of children under 18. To complain of discrimination call the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development at 800-669-9777.
    - CydeWeys 8y ago
      Anyone who's ever even looked for a roommate on Craigslist has seen all this information, too. I'm actually kind of flabbergasted that Craigslist handles it correctly and Facebook does not, just given how much more competent Facebook seems based on contrasting the look of the two sites.

sofaofthedamned 8y ago

Upvoted. I'm not saying there isn't an issue (my spidey sense says there is) but taking an advert in isolation doesn't prove anything.

Kenji 8y ago

> As a gay person, I see this all over the web. Smiling happy gay people buying cars or real estate or whatever. Good lord. Does that mean that so many advertisers track your activities so thoroughly that they figured out you're gay?

chickenfries 8y ago
In the case of Facebook, you either put this in your profile, or the kinds of pages and events that you like and interact with will give this away. Not saying that it's not creepy, just that with the way we use the internet these days, it's not an epic feat for an advertiser to figure this out given the amount of data we put out there.
- danmg 8y ago
  Actually in this case it's pretty easy. If you're gay and use dating apps, and didn't opt out of application usage history in your settings, the presence of those apps in your history will flag you as having that interest to advertisers. The google analytics get resold/repackaged, either directly or indirectly through data brokers, to Facebook. Facebook suddenly starts displaying ads for expensive mens' underwear.
  - ryanwaggoner 8y ago
    Really? Google Analytics repackages and sells user data to third party data brokers?
  - rootusrootus 8y ago
    Ha, I get ads on FB for expensive men's underwear. Their algorithms clearly have room for improvement.
imron 8y ago
> Does that mean that so many advertisers track your activities so thoroughly that they figured out you're gay? There was a thing a few years back where Target was able to determine if someone was pregnant based on their purchasing habits [0]. Facebook, Google and others gather and track orders of magnitude more information than Target could ever dream of can certainly figure out if you are gay, straight, and anything else. 0: https://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/19/magazine/shopping-habits.html https://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/19/magazine/shopping-habits....

skywhopper 8y ago

You're missing the point, though, which is not that the advertisers can target the models in the ads, but so they can choose _not_ to show ads to "undesireable" people, like people with kids, or of a certain ethnicity or religion. This sort of practice is an extremely pervasive problem that has led to enormous amounts of systemic inequality.

dennisgorelik 8y ago
What is the problem with not showing rental ads to people with kids? If landlord does not want to rent out to people with kids - I (as a parent with kids) do NOT want to see that ad. How forcing landlord to advertise to categories they do not want to serve -- would help to anybody?
- cup 8y ago
  Is this a serious question? Are you really that insulated?
- trashcan 8y ago
  The problem is that it is illegal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Housing_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Housing_Act You can't choose to rent based on familial status.
  - cabaalis 8y ago
    I understand and agree that it's wrong. On a purely theoretical level, I think the question is philosophical. They're not turning these people away, just not trying to draw them in. This happens elsewhere in society, right or wrong. Examples: gay bars, "black" churches, biker establishments.
    - scarface74 8y ago
      It’s is specifically illegal to advertise real estate based on such criteria. https://nationalfairhousing.org/responsibleadvertising/ https://nationalfairhousing.org/responsibleadvertising/

craigzucchini 8y ago

I think the bigger problem, that you haven't addressed here, is the ongoing prevalence of the word "creative" used as a noun.

ThrustVectoring 8y ago
"creative" used as a noun is perfectly standard inside the advertising industry.
- brennebeck 8y ago
  While true, I’ll admit to chuckling a bit.

scarface74 8y ago

There are specific laws about how you can advertise real estate for sale or rent. Every real estate agent and landlord knows the rules. https://www.thebalance.com/fair-housing-act-violation-1798892 https://www.thebalance.com/fair-housing-act-violation-179889...

jypepin 8y ago

That is an interesting point, kind of on the edge I guess. If Facebook really wanted to do the right thing while allowing this kind of multi-targeting, they should then build something such as segments in the same campaign. You want to target only a specific group that, under the law, can't be targeted/avoided? Fine, but then you have to create at least 3 segments on this ad to target at least 3 different groups, to prove that you are not discriminating. A segment would be a version of the ad (design, copy, etc) + targeted group. edit: my point here is that it should be Facebook's responsibility to make it difficult for publisher to post illegal ads, not the other way around.