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I think that the public and the courts are correctly recognizing that the excuse that a human never sees something doesn't exempt an organization of the regulat

I think that the public and the courts are correctly recognizing that the excuse that a human never sees something doesn't exempt an organization of the regulatory burden borne by companies where the work is done proportionally more by humans. If Facebook, Google, et. al want to run advertising companies they have to properly conduct themselves in the current regulatory environment, if their competitive advantage really just boils down to the fact that they are ignoring the rules then there should be a market correction based on them being subject to actual enforcement. (This is separate from how anyone feels about the actual rules, I think it is reasonable to say that everyone should agree that if there are rules they should be universally applied.)

nv-vn 8y ago
>I think it is reasonable to say that everyone should agree that if there are rules they should be universally applied What happens if the rules are bad rules? E.g. if it's illegal for Facebook to allow advertisements for marijuana dispensaries on a federal level? Clearly that's not something we'd want to see universally applied.
- maratd 8y ago
  What exactly is your argument? That if there's a bad law on the books, we shouldn't have laws?
  - nv-vn 8y ago
    My argument is just that not all laws are good, and following the law does not equate to doing the right thing.
    - MBCook 8y ago
      And they’re free to take that position and face the consequences.
    - rocqua 8y ago
      Whilst that is totally correct morally, law enforcement must be very careful about applying that. There is a trade-off between having a stable and predictable set of laws (i.e. strict enforcement) and having room for judgement calls when the letter of the law is unfair (i.e. discretion in enforcement). I understand when regulators decide to side with strict enforcement when a companies only advantage comes from not following the rules. Especially when it is disputed the rules shouldn't be there.
  - emilfihlman 8y ago
    Or perhaps that if the law is bad, we should engage in civil disobedience.
    - rland 8y ago
      Giant multinational corporations are squarely last in the "queue of parties that ought to commit civil disobedience."
      - nv-vn 8y ago
        Only if you start with the assumption that everything to do with them is evil. At the end of the day, they still employ and support thousands of people. There certainly are many cases in which they do the wrong thing, but their power for good should also be embraced.
      - schrodinger 8y ago
        I agree in this case, but I’d disagree if it were Apple refusing to unlock iPhones for authorities, so I’m not sure I can agree this is universal.
    - xxpor 8y ago
      Yes, Facebook should commit civil disobedience by explicitly allowing housing ads to not be shown to black people. Great plan.
- JamisonM 8y ago
  I think that if it were the consensus view of Americans that dispensaries should not be permitted to advertise then such a regulation is ok. I think that if corporation wants to engage in a form of civil disobedience then that act should be recognized and treated by the authorities appropriately, not treated like it is not happening in the first place. The point of an act of civil disobedience is that it has consequences that you are willing to withstand to serve the greater good, just getting away with something is not the same thing.
stale2002 8y ago
> , if their competitive advantage really just boils down to the fact that they are ignoring the rules then there should be a market correction based on them being subject to actual enforcement. I highly doubt that the majority of advertising business for Facebook and Google comes solely from discriminatory housing ads.
- JamisonM 8y ago
  I also doubt that it is a majority of their business, but I think it would be interesting to find out just how much of their revenue is represented by discriminatory advertising across many domains (housing, hiring, for example), political advertising that may be dubious or illegal, and outright solicitation for scams. And then to think about how their revenue would fall and their costs increase if they are obligated to make a sincere effort to eliminate these items from their portfolio.
vt_throwaway123 8y ago
The problem here is that this is the exact opposite of what's going on - the competitive advantage of many smaller companies these days is that they are not even close to being compliant with regulations but platforms often tolerate them because they are not responsible for counterparty compliance. If you do however put that onus on the platforms, then it's entirely predictable that platforms will cut ties with small businesses. This is more or less what happened with GDPR - lots of small ad-tech players became large liabilities for others in the value chain, leading to more consolidation in the industry. Outside of technology, it's common for certain types of services or tools not to be made aware to small-time customers. The technology industry at large and the large tech companies in particular have so far bucked this trend in a way that created a huge amount of value for the world at large, but this doesn't have to be this way.
- google_censors 8y ago
  The real problem here is that Facebook is operating in an area where it doesn't have a license and didn't bother to follow the laws that 2 million US real estate agents learned as part of the basic licensing. The onus has been on the platforms for years, but they've all been happy to take real estate ads because its lucrative despite the rules they have to follow. What makes Facebook so special in all of this, when small newspapers and one-person real estate shops have been able to follow these rules for decades?
- JamisonM 8y ago
  In this case who are the smaller companies you are referring to specifically? If the small companies in question are gaining competitive advantage through non-compliance that makes them viable enterprises then it is good and correct that they should be forced to change their business model and compete with the same rules as everyone else, right? I don't understand what you are saying with this: "Outside of technology, it's common for certain types of services or tools not to be made aware to small-time customers. The technology industry at large and the large tech companies in particular have so far bucked this trend in a way that created a huge amount of value for the world at large.."

nv-vn 8y ago

>I think it is reasonable to say that everyone should agree that if there are rules they should be universally applied What happens if the rules are bad rules? E.g. if it's illegal for Facebook to allow advertisements for marijuana dispensaries on a federal level? Clearly that's not something we'd want to see universally applied.

maratd 8y ago
What exactly is your argument? That if there's a bad law on the books, we shouldn't have laws?
- nv-vn 8y ago
  My argument is just that not all laws are good, and following the law does not equate to doing the right thing.
  - MBCook 8y ago
    And they’re free to take that position and face the consequences.
  - rocqua 8y ago
    Whilst that is totally correct morally, law enforcement must be very careful about applying that. There is a trade-off between having a stable and predictable set of laws (i.e. strict enforcement) and having room for judgement calls when the letter of the law is unfair (i.e. discretion in enforcement). I understand when regulators decide to side with strict enforcement when a companies only advantage comes from not following the rules. Especially when it is disputed the rules shouldn't be there.
- emilfihlman 8y ago
  Or perhaps that if the law is bad, we should engage in civil disobedience.
  - rland 8y ago
    Giant multinational corporations are squarely last in the "queue of parties that ought to commit civil disobedience."
    - nv-vn 8y ago
      Only if you start with the assumption that everything to do with them is evil. At the end of the day, they still employ and support thousands of people. There certainly are many cases in which they do the wrong thing, but their power for good should also be embraced.
    - schrodinger 8y ago
      I agree in this case, but I’d disagree if it were Apple refusing to unlock iPhones for authorities, so I’m not sure I can agree this is universal.
  - xxpor 8y ago
    Yes, Facebook should commit civil disobedience by explicitly allowing housing ads to not be shown to black people. Great plan.
JamisonM 8y ago
I think that if it were the consensus view of Americans that dispensaries should not be permitted to advertise then such a regulation is ok. I think that if corporation wants to engage in a form of civil disobedience then that act should be recognized and treated by the authorities appropriately, not treated like it is not happening in the first place. The point of an act of civil disobedience is that it has consequences that you are willing to withstand to serve the greater good, just getting away with something is not the same thing.

stale2002 8y ago

> , if their competitive advantage really just boils down to the fact that they are ignoring the rules then there should be a market correction based on them being subject to actual enforcement. I highly doubt that the majority of advertising business for Facebook and Google comes solely from discriminatory housing ads.

JamisonM 8y ago
I also doubt that it is a majority of their business, but I think it would be interesting to find out just how much of their revenue is represented by discriminatory advertising across many domains (housing, hiring, for example), political advertising that may be dubious or illegal, and outright solicitation for scams. And then to think about how their revenue would fall and their costs increase if they are obligated to make a sincere effort to eliminate these items from their portfolio.

vt_throwaway123 8y ago

The problem here is that this is the exact opposite of what's going on - the competitive advantage of many smaller companies these days is that they are not even close to being compliant with regulations but platforms often tolerate them because they are not responsible for counterparty compliance. If you do however put that onus on the platforms, then it's entirely predictable that platforms will cut ties with small businesses. This is more or less what happened with GDPR - lots of small ad-tech players became large liabilities for others in the value chain, leading to more consolidation in the industry. Outside of technology, it's common for certain types of services or tools not to be made aware to small-time customers. The technology industry at large and the large tech companies in particular have so far bucked this trend in a way that created a huge amount of value for the world at large, but this doesn't have to be this way.

google_censors 8y ago
The real problem here is that Facebook is operating in an area where it doesn't have a license and didn't bother to follow the laws that 2 million US real estate agents learned as part of the basic licensing. The onus has been on the platforms for years, but they've all been happy to take real estate ads because its lucrative despite the rules they have to follow. What makes Facebook so special in all of this, when small newspapers and one-person real estate shops have been able to follow these rules for decades?
JamisonM 8y ago
In this case who are the smaller companies you are referring to specifically? If the small companies in question are gaining competitive advantage through non-compliance that makes them viable enterprises then it is good and correct that they should be forced to change their business model and compete with the same rules as everyone else, right? I don't understand what you are saying with this: "Outside of technology, it's common for certain types of services or tools not to be made aware to small-time customers. The technology industry at large and the large tech companies in particular have so far bucked this trend in a way that created a huge amount of value for the world at large.."