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This thread has too much argument for the sake of arguing. People are trying to debate whether or not a nature vs. development dichotomy exists in the abstract.

by as301 8y ago

This thread has too much argument for the sake of arguing. People are trying to debate whether or not a nature vs. development dichotomy exists in the abstract. Of course it doesn't, but why don't we talk about the particulars of this situation instead of turning the comment section into a high school debate class? The article clearly states that it will be very difficult to balance conservation of primate habitats with expansion of palm oil harvesting. Given that information, and the fact that the continent is desparately in need of economic development, I think the environmental losses are justifiable if they lead to better livelihoods for Africans.

sitkack 8y ago
I was with you until > I think the environmental losses are justifiable if they lead to better livelihoods for Africans I have been to Borneo, I have seen the future and it is bleak. The guy running the Palm Oil Plantation has a car, AC in his house and a big screen tv. The ground is poisoned forever (after less than 20 years of growing palm oil) and ultimately the topsoil of Borneo will wash away into the leaving a lifeless desolate bump sticking out of the ocean. Nothing abstract about that.
- adrian_mrd 8y ago
  Sounds like a horrible future for Borneons. But, it's obvious why many farmers turn to palm oil. It is a very effective cash crop (hence the big screen TV - possibly a Curved 100" OLED screen for "that guy" running the Palm Oil plantation ;) and the demand is there worldwide. Farming is often a very tough existence, so palm oil is very alluring for many who would otherwise face relative or absolute poverty.
beat 8y ago
This opens up another question... will expanding the palm oil plantations result in "better livelihoods for Africans" in the affected areas? This isn't as simple as just more GDP, more money. Historically, plantations have led to a lot of disruption, dislocation, and habitat/environmental destruction for the people already living there, and whatever "jobs" are created tend to be low-paying, unfulfilling unskilled farm labor. So it's not necessarily a win for the people living there, although it may be a huge win for the plantation owners. It could be a big loss for everyone else. (For examples from American history, see the Trail of Tears and Southern plantation culture, particularly the Second Migration that came with the rise of the cotton plantations in the 19th century.)

by as301 8y ago

sitkack 8y ago

I was with you until > I think the environmental losses are justifiable if they lead to better livelihoods for Africans I have been to Borneo, I have seen the future and it is bleak. The guy running the Palm Oil Plantation has a car, AC in his house and a big screen tv. The ground is poisoned forever (after less than 20 years of growing palm oil) and ultimately the topsoil of Borneo will wash away into the leaving a lifeless desolate bump sticking out of the ocean. Nothing abstract about that.

adrian_mrd 8y ago
Sounds like a horrible future for Borneons. But, it's obvious why many farmers turn to palm oil. It is a very effective cash crop (hence the big screen TV - possibly a Curved 100" OLED screen for "that guy" running the Palm Oil plantation ;) and the demand is there worldwide. Farming is often a very tough existence, so palm oil is very alluring for many who would otherwise face relative or absolute poverty.

beat 8y ago

This opens up another question... will expanding the palm oil plantations result in "better livelihoods for Africans" in the affected areas? This isn't as simple as just more GDP, more money. Historically, plantations have led to a lot of disruption, dislocation, and habitat/environmental destruction for the people already living there, and whatever "jobs" are created tend to be low-paying, unfulfilling unskilled farm labor. So it's not necessarily a win for the people living there, although it may be a huge win for the plantation owners. It could be a big loss for everyone else. (For examples from American history, see the Trail of Tears and Southern plantation culture, particularly the Second Migration that came with the rise of the cotton plantations in the 19th century.)