13 ms·

Facebook and Google want China, but China doesn’t want them

41 points by williswee 8y ago

est 8y ago
Of course China want Google and Facebook, but only the "obedient and compliant" Google and Facebook.
- zarriak 8y ago
  No they don't. Time and time again have chosen the local competition.
  - fx32s 8y ago
    Easy to say if there is none
  - est 8y ago
    It's not a foreign/local problem, it's a service good/bad problem.
    - sanxiyn 8y ago
      For most people in South Korea, Naver search is better than Google search. I have no reason to doubt that for most people in China, Baidu search is better than Google search.
      - raarts 8y ago
        Apparently, a lot of users are commenting on Weibo about their deep untrust of Baidu -- and how they can’t wait for Google to come back to China [1]. Also Baidu seems to favor its own products for search engine rankings [2]. Further searching reveals reports that Baidu is significantly behind Google in AI, and that usability takes the backseat vs money. I would like to see a more thorough comparison between the two. [1] https://qz.com/593120/chinese-citizens-are-boycotting-search-engine-baidu-and-praying-for-google-to-come-back/ https://qz.com/593120/chinese-citizens-are-boycotting-search... [2] https://magichoth.com/20-top-differences-between-google-and-baidu-seo/ https://magichoth.com/20-top-differences-between-google-and-...
        Markoff 8y ago
        i would not call tens of thousands a lot in country with at least half billion internet users plus by my experience living years in China, Chinese are very brave when it confess to statements but actions are entirely different thing once they realize consequences, so even most of those few tens of thousands can't be taken seriously as was stated by other commenter, baidu it's superior for Chinese search, same as manner it's for Korean, giggle can't get right non Latin character languages
  - sonnyblarney 8y ago
    "No they don't. Time and time again have chosen the local competition." Then why don't we just give the Chinese unfettered access to Google and 'see what they want' ...
- sanxiyn 8y ago
  No, China does not want Google just like South Korea does not want Google. Everybody uses Naver here. China and South Korea do not want Google because local alternatives are superior.
  - drawnwren 8y ago
    If that were true, they wouldn't feel the need to ban Google. Naver is a completely different problem than China.
    - sanxiyn 8y ago
      China doesn't ban Google, China bans websites that do not comply with its law. Chinese law compliant Google was up in China from 2006 to 2009. As soon as Google is compliant, China will unblock Google.
  - nitwit005 8y ago
    Google had a decent hunk of the market share when it was there, and it seems to be totally dominant in Taiwan. I'd note there were articles about people griping about it being blocked at the time: https://qz.com/239810/frustrated-chinese-web-users-bemoan-baidu-and-pine-for-the-days-of-google/ https://qz.com/239810/frustrated-chinese-web-users-bemoan-ba...
    - sanxiyn 8y ago
      > Google had a decent hunk of the market share when it was there Which was less than 30%.
      - nitwit005 8y ago
        Proving what? You essentially claimed no one was interested in it because there were better alternatives. You're providing evidence against your own claim here.
  - sonnyblarney 8y ago
    Ok then, let China have access to regular Google and Facebook and then everyone can make up their own minds, how about that? Because my bet is that there are 100's of millions of Chinese who wouldn't mind access to Facebook or Google.
- Bendingo 8y ago
  > Of course I must be naive and/or thick because I can't think why China would want them. Google/Facebook are used to sell things and spy on users. China surely has plenty of other ways of doing both.
  - est 8y ago
    > Google/Facebook are used to sell things and spy on users. Easy, China want to use Google/Facebook to spy foreign targets. Google withdraw from China exactly because of this.
newnewpdro 8y ago
If you were China, would you want these American companies having such visibility into and influence over your people's lives? Just look at how FB was abused in the last election, of course China doesn't want a third party running the show.
marco_salvatori 8y ago
My suspicion is that its very unlikely that Google and FB are going to be able to establish the government relationships that would allow them to operate successfully in China.Google collects massive amounts of citizen data and it has close relations with the US military / security institutions. The combination means Google will never be a trusted operator in China. Facebook is in a worse position. In addition to being a data collection platform with US government connections, it is a communications platform not under the direct control of China, located in the US.And these US communications platforms have a history now of being associated with movements of anti-government dissent around the world. More generally, I dont see how US tech companies are going to be able to have it both ways -- be both willing partners in US government policy and also non threatening to Chinese sovereignty.
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago
  I don't see how Chinese tech companies are going to be able to have it both ways either if they ever actually want to leave China. This is one market (the world) vs. another market (China), and they are increasingly becoming separated at the Internet level. Also, if China decides the only way it can keep competing is by blocking their competition, then the rest of the world will just wag their finger at them when they complain about export markets for their cultural products. If the Chinese government were smart, they would find a way to let Facebook and Google in while maintaining control over censorship AND keeping its anointed tech companies with majority market shares.
  - sanxiyn 8y ago
    Tik Tok (developed by Chinese company Toutiao) seems to be doing fine globally. In general, I don't see any backlash against apps and services developed in China.
    - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
      Wechat has tried many tines and can’t even get much traction in HK. Most of the countries neighboring China, even Vietnam, Cambodia, and Myanmar, are firmly in Facebook/google’s sphere. Which countries is tiktok popular in?
lalos 8y ago
Facebook and Google want that 1 billion of possible users to comply with the thirst of the stock market that has been accustomed to user growth metrics as a signal for sustainable tech company. They have already expanded on where they can and you can smell the desperation. Specially with projects like Free Basics, Internet.org, Aquila, Loon and Skybender which are not charity, they just want more users with internet to adopt there platforms to keep with the growth metrics. It's going to be an interesting next 10 years for Google and Facebook.
- gt_ 8y ago
  Right. For whatever reason, I don’t think many people realize how this will work. These companies don’t have mechanisms through which to be rational about hardline growth ceilings. Or, we could say they have developed immunities to them. The contemporary corporation is an evolved social structure that specializes emotion and undermines perception. Google has plenty going for it: no shortage of funding, the shoe-in for hosting the first self-driving car deployments. but none of it matters because there’s nobody in charge of where to draw the line. The behaviors of these firms will increasingly baffle their spectators.
malandrew 8y ago
The best thing both of them can do (and every other tech giant that is not Chinese) is to put up a moat around China and contain all the competing Chinese tech companies to only China. This means putting extra effort into every country that borders China and every country with whom China has a strong economic relationship. This isn't too different to how Facebook conquered universities where it was #2 to some other social network. Instead of trying to replace the social network at that university (A) with Facebook, it focused on all the universities (B, C, D, etc.) around that university (A) so that there would be a strong social network composed of the secondary universities (B, C, D, etc.) and that would lead students at the first university (A) to join Facebook when they made friends with students at the secondary universities (B, C, D, etc.).
andromedavision 8y ago
This is the type thing that makes me support President Trump. The Chinese have very unfair business practices and they require a strong President to deal with them.
- natch 8y ago
  The leap to the suggestion that Trump is a strong president is where you lost me. Otherwise I agree with you that the US needs a strong response to China.
  - andromedavision 8y ago
    Why'd I lose you? There is a case to be made for Trump being the only US president to stand up to China in any meaningful way. He was able to do what everyone was afraid to do (impose tariffs regardless of any threats from China) and that takes strength. You don't have to like him as a person, but you cannot claim he's not doing a fantastic job.
    - pimmen 8y ago
      In that one area alone I would agree stuff are happening, but he imposed tariffs on the EU citing WTO rules reserved for war too, and the responses has hurt local US businesses. That’s an absolutely terrible job.
      - andromedavision 8y ago
        Haven't followed the EU trade tariffs lately but as I gathered last I checked, this was a temporary thing and he got what he wanted which was better trade terms from the EU to America. I don't see why this was a bad thing; some short term/temporary discomfort for better deals in the long run.
        pimmen 8y ago
        This is a still ongoing affair, and the trade terms are still not finished. The only thing he’s accomplished is an image of the US as unpredictable and dishonest since they had no legal standing. The EU will remember this the next time the trade agreements are up for renogitation.

41 points by williswee 8y ago

est 8y ago

Of course China want Google and Facebook, but only the "obedient and compliant" Google and Facebook.

zarriak 8y ago
No they don't. Time and time again have chosen the local competition.
- fx32s 8y ago
  Easy to say if there is none
- est 8y ago
  It's not a foreign/local problem, it's a service good/bad problem.
  - sanxiyn 8y ago
    For most people in South Korea, Naver search is better than Google search. I have no reason to doubt that for most people in China, Baidu search is better than Google search.
    - raarts 8y ago
      Apparently, a lot of users are commenting on Weibo about their deep untrust of Baidu -- and how they can’t wait for Google to come back to China [1]. Also Baidu seems to favor its own products for search engine rankings [2]. Further searching reveals reports that Baidu is significantly behind Google in AI, and that usability takes the backseat vs money. I would like to see a more thorough comparison between the two. [1] https://qz.com/593120/chinese-citizens-are-boycotting-search-engine-baidu-and-praying-for-google-to-come-back/ https://qz.com/593120/chinese-citizens-are-boycotting-search... [2] https://magichoth.com/20-top-differences-between-google-and-baidu-seo/ https://magichoth.com/20-top-differences-between-google-and-...
      - Markoff 8y ago
        i would not call tens of thousands a lot in country with at least half billion internet users plus by my experience living years in China, Chinese are very brave when it confess to statements but actions are entirely different thing once they realize consequences, so even most of those few tens of thousands can't be taken seriously as was stated by other commenter, baidu it's superior for Chinese search, same as manner it's for Korean, giggle can't get right non Latin character languages
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  "No they don't. Time and time again have chosen the local competition." Then why don't we just give the Chinese unfettered access to Google and 'see what they want' ...
sanxiyn 8y ago
No, China does not want Google just like South Korea does not want Google. Everybody uses Naver here. China and South Korea do not want Google because local alternatives are superior.
- drawnwren 8y ago
  If that were true, they wouldn't feel the need to ban Google. Naver is a completely different problem than China.
  - sanxiyn 8y ago
    China doesn't ban Google, China bans websites that do not comply with its law. Chinese law compliant Google was up in China from 2006 to 2009. As soon as Google is compliant, China will unblock Google.
- nitwit005 8y ago
  Google had a decent hunk of the market share when it was there, and it seems to be totally dominant in Taiwan. I'd note there were articles about people griping about it being blocked at the time: https://qz.com/239810/frustrated-chinese-web-users-bemoan-baidu-and-pine-for-the-days-of-google/ https://qz.com/239810/frustrated-chinese-web-users-bemoan-ba...
  - sanxiyn 8y ago
    > Google had a decent hunk of the market share when it was there Which was less than 30%.
    - nitwit005 8y ago
      Proving what? You essentially claimed no one was interested in it because there were better alternatives. You're providing evidence against your own claim here.
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  Ok then, let China have access to regular Google and Facebook and then everyone can make up their own minds, how about that? Because my bet is that there are 100's of millions of Chinese who wouldn't mind access to Facebook or Google.
Bendingo 8y ago
> Of course I must be naive and/or thick because I can't think why China would want them. Google/Facebook are used to sell things and spy on users. China surely has plenty of other ways of doing both.
- est 8y ago
  > Google/Facebook are used to sell things and spy on users. Easy, China want to use Google/Facebook to spy foreign targets. Google withdraw from China exactly because of this.

newnewpdro 8y ago

If you were China, would you want these American companies having such visibility into and influence over your people's lives? Just look at how FB was abused in the last election, of course China doesn't want a third party running the show.

marco_salvatori 8y ago

My suspicion is that its very unlikely that Google and FB are going to be able to establish the government relationships that would allow them to operate successfully in China.Google collects massive amounts of citizen data and it has close relations with the US military / security institutions. The combination means Google will never be a trusted operator in China. Facebook is in a worse position. In addition to being a data collection platform with US government connections, it is a communications platform not under the direct control of China, located in the US.And these US communications platforms have a history now of being associated with movements of anti-government dissent around the world. More generally, I dont see how US tech companies are going to be able to have it both ways -- be both willing partners in US government policy and also non threatening to Chinese sovereignty.

seanmcdirmid 8y ago
I don't see how Chinese tech companies are going to be able to have it both ways either if they ever actually want to leave China. This is one market (the world) vs. another market (China), and they are increasingly becoming separated at the Internet level. Also, if China decides the only way it can keep competing is by blocking their competition, then the rest of the world will just wag their finger at them when they complain about export markets for their cultural products. If the Chinese government were smart, they would find a way to let Facebook and Google in while maintaining control over censorship AND keeping its anointed tech companies with majority market shares.
- sanxiyn 8y ago
  Tik Tok (developed by Chinese company Toutiao) seems to be doing fine globally. In general, I don't see any backlash against apps and services developed in China.
  - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
    Wechat has tried many tines and can’t even get much traction in HK. Most of the countries neighboring China, even Vietnam, Cambodia, and Myanmar, are firmly in Facebook/google’s sphere. Which countries is tiktok popular in?

lalos 8y ago

Facebook and Google want that 1 billion of possible users to comply with the thirst of the stock market that has been accustomed to user growth metrics as a signal for sustainable tech company. They have already expanded on where they can and you can smell the desperation. Specially with projects like Free Basics, Internet.org, Aquila, Loon and Skybender which are not charity, they just want more users with internet to adopt there platforms to keep with the growth metrics. It's going to be an interesting next 10 years for Google and Facebook.

gt_ 8y ago
Right. For whatever reason, I don’t think many people realize how this will work. These companies don’t have mechanisms through which to be rational about hardline growth ceilings. Or, we could say they have developed immunities to them. The contemporary corporation is an evolved social structure that specializes emotion and undermines perception. Google has plenty going for it: no shortage of funding, the shoe-in for hosting the first self-driving car deployments. but none of it matters because there’s nobody in charge of where to draw the line. The behaviors of these firms will increasingly baffle their spectators.

malandrew 8y ago

The best thing both of them can do (and every other tech giant that is not Chinese) is to put up a moat around China and contain all the competing Chinese tech companies to only China. This means putting extra effort into every country that borders China and every country with whom China has a strong economic relationship. This isn't too different to how Facebook conquered universities where it was #2 to some other social network. Instead of trying to replace the social network at that university (A) with Facebook, it focused on all the universities (B, C, D, etc.) around that university (A) so that there would be a strong social network composed of the secondary universities (B, C, D, etc.) and that would lead students at the first university (A) to join Facebook when they made friends with students at the secondary universities (B, C, D, etc.).

andromedavision 8y ago

This is the type thing that makes me support President Trump. The Chinese have very unfair business practices and they require a strong President to deal with them.

natch 8y ago
The leap to the suggestion that Trump is a strong president is where you lost me. Otherwise I agree with you that the US needs a strong response to China.
- andromedavision 8y ago
  Why'd I lose you? There is a case to be made for Trump being the only US president to stand up to China in any meaningful way. He was able to do what everyone was afraid to do (impose tariffs regardless of any threats from China) and that takes strength. You don't have to like him as a person, but you cannot claim he's not doing a fantastic job.
  - pimmen 8y ago
    In that one area alone I would agree stuff are happening, but he imposed tariffs on the EU citing WTO rules reserved for war too, and the responses has hurt local US businesses. That’s an absolutely terrible job.
    - andromedavision 8y ago
      Haven't followed the EU trade tariffs lately but as I gathered last I checked, this was a temporary thing and he got what he wanted which was better trade terms from the EU to America. I don't see why this was a bad thing; some short term/temporary discomfort for better deals in the long run.
      - pimmen 8y ago
        This is a still ongoing affair, and the trade terms are still not finished. The only thing he’s accomplished is an image of the US as unpredictable and dishonest since they had no legal standing. The EU will remember this the next time the trade agreements are up for renogitation.