5 ms·

Genuinely curious - What is the current state / precedent for this type of situation in the US?

ransom1538 8y ago
US: Life sentence. If a judge orders you to unlock your laptop/phone and you don't -- it could be a life sentence. IMHO, they go around the constitution with "Contempt of court". https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/03/man-jailed-indefinitely-for-refusing-to-decrypt-hard-drives-loses-appeal/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/03/man-jailed-indef...
- LanceH 8y ago
  Unless you're a politician, then you can just "have no recollection."
  - mindslight 8y ago
    Politicians and plebs have the same exact ability there - in both cases what is already happening will just continue unimpeded. That's a principle called equal protection!
- adventured 8y ago
  You're dramatically over-simplifying by using one example to claim it's law. That is not the US law, that's one individual instance. In fact it's unsettled legal territory. The Supreme Court has yet to settle it, and they will very likely be the final word.
  - ransom1538 8y ago
    I re-read my comment, I didn't say "That is the US law".
    - ben509 8y ago
      Re-read the parent as well, because it also doesn't claim you did. You absurdly oversimplified the situation, which is the criticism, please address that.
  - emiliobumachar 8y ago
    That one precedent sets the most reasonable expectation of what U.S. law means in practice, unless and until overturned.
    - eric_the_read 8y ago
      Only in the 3rd Circuit; other jurisdictions aren't obliged to follow its precedent.
- peeters 8y ago
  Granted my source for this is The Newsroom, but IIRC contempt of court is a tool that can only be used coercively, and not punitively. In other words, if you refuse to give your password, you could be detained indefinitely for contempt. But if you forget your password, you should be released immediately. Obviously that's open to interpretation and abuse, I'm just saying contempt would only be correctly applied here if there was reason to believe a witness/suspect was withholding the information, not when they're not able to provide the information.
  - mirimir 8y ago
    Well, that ex cop in Philadelphia claims that he forgot his macOS FDE password, but he's still in jail.
  - gknoy 8y ago
    refuse to give your password: detained indefinitely forget your password: should be released immediately How could that possibly work? The court has no way of knowing whether someone is refusing to comply, versus being unable to because they don't know (or never knew) a secret. Because of this, it seems very likely that any claim of having forgotten (or having never known) something will be treated as contempt.
    - candiodari 8y ago
      Every system builds on the humans implementing it. So in other words, this system gives judges the power to imprison anyone indefinitely. These guys, for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal
- cryptonector 8y ago
  Contempt of court is not a life sentence. It ends the moment the defendant complies. Whereas a sentence for a "10 years in jail for not revealing password" charge would not be vacated when you decide to reveal the password.
  - crooked-v 8y ago
    What if the defendant has genuinely forgotten the password?
    - mirimir 8y ago
      That could be bad, if the court believes that they're lying.
ThrustVectoring 8y ago
Complicated. 5th amendment protections against self-incrimination prevents the court from using the fact that you can unlock your phone with a password you know from being used against you. Court opinion has been mixed as to whether you can have an obligation to reveal a password. Even then, the government requires a warrant to search the phone, and that requires a reasonable belief that they would find evidence on it. They can't just go fishing and make you help them. There's less protection for fingerprint based unlock mechanisms and the like. It's not "something you know", so they're free to compel you to provide it.
- oxplot 8y ago
  Interesting. Latest Android (pie) lets you "lock down" your phone using a quick shortcut which basically locks the phone, hides all notifications and will require your PIN to unlock it not your fingerprint. Wonder if that's related to the law you mentioned.

US: Life sentence. If a judge orders you to unlock your laptop/phone and you don't -- it could be a life sentence. IMHO, they go around the constitution with "Contempt of court". https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/03/man-jailed-indefinitely-for-refusing-to-decrypt-hard-drives-loses-appeal/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/03/man-jailed-indef...

LanceH 8y ago
Unless you're a politician, then you can just "have no recollection."
- mindslight 8y ago
  Politicians and plebs have the same exact ability there - in both cases what is already happening will just continue unimpeded. That's a principle called equal protection!
adventured 8y ago
You're dramatically over-simplifying by using one example to claim it's law. That is not the US law, that's one individual instance. In fact it's unsettled legal territory. The Supreme Court has yet to settle it, and they will very likely be the final word.
- ransom1538 8y ago
  I re-read my comment, I didn't say "That is the US law".
  - ben509 8y ago
    Re-read the parent as well, because it also doesn't claim you did. You absurdly oversimplified the situation, which is the criticism, please address that.
- emiliobumachar 8y ago
  That one precedent sets the most reasonable expectation of what U.S. law means in practice, unless and until overturned.
  - eric_the_read 8y ago
    Only in the 3rd Circuit; other jurisdictions aren't obliged to follow its precedent.
peeters 8y ago
Granted my source for this is The Newsroom, but IIRC contempt of court is a tool that can only be used coercively, and not punitively. In other words, if you refuse to give your password, you could be detained indefinitely for contempt. But if you forget your password, you should be released immediately. Obviously that's open to interpretation and abuse, I'm just saying contempt would only be correctly applied here if there was reason to believe a witness/suspect was withholding the information, not when they're not able to provide the information.
- mirimir 8y ago
  Well, that ex cop in Philadelphia claims that he forgot his macOS FDE password, but he's still in jail.
- gknoy 8y ago
  refuse to give your password: detained indefinitely forget your password: should be released immediately How could that possibly work? The court has no way of knowing whether someone is refusing to comply, versus being unable to because they don't know (or never knew) a secret. Because of this, it seems very likely that any claim of having forgotten (or having never known) something will be treated as contempt.
  - candiodari 8y ago
    Every system builds on the humans implementing it. So in other words, this system gives judges the power to imprison anyone indefinitely. These guys, for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal
cryptonector 8y ago
Contempt of court is not a life sentence. It ends the moment the defendant complies. Whereas a sentence for a "10 years in jail for not revealing password" charge would not be vacated when you decide to reveal the password.
- crooked-v 8y ago
  What if the defendant has genuinely forgotten the password?
  - mirimir 8y ago
    That could be bad, if the court believes that they're lying.

ThrustVectoring 8y ago

Complicated. 5th amendment protections against self-incrimination prevents the court from using the fact that you can unlock your phone with a password you know from being used against you. Court opinion has been mixed as to whether you can have an obligation to reveal a password. Even then, the government requires a warrant to search the phone, and that requires a reasonable belief that they would find evidence on it. They can't just go fishing and make you help them. There's less protection for fingerprint based unlock mechanisms and the like. It's not "something you know", so they're free to compel you to provide it.

oxplot 8y ago
Interesting. Latest Android (pie) lets you "lock down" your phone using a quick shortcut which basically locks the phone, hides all notifications and will require your PIN to unlock it not your fingerprint. Wonder if that's related to the law you mentioned.