4 ms·

Unions seem like a good answer to increasing consolidation of businesses. Even in tech there has been wage/benefit reducing collusion/monopoly behavior. Why ar

by acover 8y ago

Unions seem like a good answer to increasing consolidation of businesses. Even in tech there has been wage/benefit reducing collusion/monopoly behavior. Why are people so anti-union? Would opt-in collective bargaining work better?

freehunter 8y ago
>Why are people so anti-union? Because big corporations hate unions, and big corporations run the US media and own most US politicians.
st26 8y ago
In the beginning unions were heroes & did great things. In the end they were doing fewer great things and more negative things. Many people alive today were not around to remember the beginning stage, they only read about it in history books, while they lived the end stage. It could be that simple.
- jimbokun 8y ago
  I think now that unions are disappearing and people in jobs that used to be unionized see their wages and benefits decrease, those people are slowly realizing unions are still doing heroic and great things for their members. Too many people just assumed workers financial situations would continue to improve without unions, which is not really turning out to be true.
hackeraccount 8y ago
Unions are good at providing collective benefits but not so good at individual ones. If you want a retirement package - something that everyone gets without regard to performance. Or vacation days. Unions are the way to go. If you want a raise... this is an unpolitic opinion but unions are not so good at that. They will try to give everyone a raise. This leaves almost everyone unhappy because almost everyone feels they're doing a good job and then slacker they work with is a layabout who should be happy they're not getting fired. And everyone intuitively understands that there's a limited pot of money for salaries - it's a zero sum game. In truth retirement benefits aren't really much different but they aren't viewed that way. Same with vacation.
mynegation 8y ago
Not one of the posters in this thread, but I can offer my perspective. I am not anti-union per se, if people want to bargain collectively - let them! The one and only aspect I do not like about the unions is that if I - as an individual - want to work for a unionized corporation, I am obligated to join the union. I understand why it is done this way, but this is something that I find as limiting my freedom. Disclaimer: apart from my student and TA years, I have never been in unionized industry/hired by a corporation for a unionized position, so I may not know the full reality.
- darpa_escapee 8y ago
  > but this is something that I find as limiting my freedom. What freedom do you see as being limited?
jonathankoren 8y ago
"Opt-in collective bargaining" sounds suspiciously like "right to work" laws. I don't think you meant it like that, but it sounds like that. In case someone isn't aware, a union shop, has a union that negotiates a contract with management. It sets wages, benefits, safety, all sorts of stuff. Most importantly, it negotiates for all workers at the shop. The reason why it negotiates for all workers (or more precisely all workers that qualify for union (e.g. all pilots, all janitors, all machinists, etc.) is that 1) it increases bargaining power, and 2) it simplifies things for the company. As a result, in a union shop, if you work there in a capacity that is union eligible, you're compelled to pay dues to union for the purposes of contract negotiating. (Dues for other purposes are not compelled.) Everyone benefits from the contract. Everyone pays to negotiate said contract. "Right to work" laws say that you can't be compelled to pay dues to negotiate contracts, and yet you still benefit from the contracts. It's a legal carve out for free riders, with the purpose to starve unions of money and thus negotiating power. This isn't a side effect of this policy, it's its purpose. That's why you find pro-management groups and politicians advocating for these laws, while denigrating unions.
s73v3r_ 8y ago
Decades of propaganda telling them that unions are responsible for all the ills of labor right now, instead of having the company own up to their own misgivings.
fbonetti 8y ago
> Even in tech there has been wage/benefit reducing collusion/monopoly behavior. > Why are people so anti-union? You realize that unions are cartels/monopolies on labor, right? You already recognize that monopolies distort markets, promote corruption and rent-seeking, and produce bad outcomes for society. Why would it be any different with unions?
- darpa_escapee 8y ago
  > unions are cartels/monopolies on labor They're no different than businesses that sell commodities other than labor.
- dasil003 8y ago
  By that logic every company is already a monopoly in its own labor and a union is just a second monopoly with equivalent bargaining power as a counter balance.

by acover 8y ago

freehunter 8y ago

>Why are people so anti-union? Because big corporations hate unions, and big corporations run the US media and own most US politicians.

st26 8y ago

In the beginning unions were heroes & did great things. In the end they were doing fewer great things and more negative things. Many people alive today were not around to remember the beginning stage, they only read about it in history books, while they lived the end stage. It could be that simple.

jimbokun 8y ago
I think now that unions are disappearing and people in jobs that used to be unionized see their wages and benefits decrease, those people are slowly realizing unions are still doing heroic and great things for their members. Too many people just assumed workers financial situations would continue to improve without unions, which is not really turning out to be true.

hackeraccount 8y ago

Unions are good at providing collective benefits but not so good at individual ones. If you want a retirement package - something that everyone gets without regard to performance. Or vacation days. Unions are the way to go. If you want a raise... this is an unpolitic opinion but unions are not so good at that. They will try to give everyone a raise. This leaves almost everyone unhappy because almost everyone feels they're doing a good job and then slacker they work with is a layabout who should be happy they're not getting fired. And everyone intuitively understands that there's a limited pot of money for salaries - it's a zero sum game. In truth retirement benefits aren't really much different but they aren't viewed that way. Same with vacation.

mynegation 8y ago

Not one of the posters in this thread, but I can offer my perspective. I am not anti-union per se, if people want to bargain collectively - let them! The one and only aspect I do not like about the unions is that if I - as an individual - want to work for a unionized corporation, I am obligated to join the union. I understand why it is done this way, but this is something that I find as limiting my freedom. Disclaimer: apart from my student and TA years, I have never been in unionized industry/hired by a corporation for a unionized position, so I may not know the full reality.

darpa_escapee 8y ago
> but this is something that I find as limiting my freedom. What freedom do you see as being limited?

jonathankoren 8y ago

"Opt-in collective bargaining" sounds suspiciously like "right to work" laws. I don't think you meant it like that, but it sounds like that. In case someone isn't aware, a union shop, has a union that negotiates a contract with management. It sets wages, benefits, safety, all sorts of stuff. Most importantly, it negotiates for all workers at the shop. The reason why it negotiates for all workers (or more precisely all workers that qualify for union (e.g. all pilots, all janitors, all machinists, etc.) is that 1) it increases bargaining power, and 2) it simplifies things for the company. As a result, in a union shop, if you work there in a capacity that is union eligible, you're compelled to pay dues to union for the purposes of contract negotiating. (Dues for other purposes are not compelled.) Everyone benefits from the contract. Everyone pays to negotiate said contract. "Right to work" laws say that you can't be compelled to pay dues to negotiate contracts, and yet you still benefit from the contracts. It's a legal carve out for free riders, with the purpose to starve unions of money and thus negotiating power. This isn't a side effect of this policy, it's its purpose. That's why you find pro-management groups and politicians advocating for these laws, while denigrating unions.

s73v3r_ 8y ago

Decades of propaganda telling them that unions are responsible for all the ills of labor right now, instead of having the company own up to their own misgivings.

fbonetti 8y ago

> Even in tech there has been wage/benefit reducing collusion/monopoly behavior. > Why are people so anti-union? You realize that unions are cartels/monopolies on labor, right? You already recognize that monopolies distort markets, promote corruption and rent-seeking, and produce bad outcomes for society. Why would it be any different with unions?

darpa_escapee 8y ago
> unions are cartels/monopolies on labor They're no different than businesses that sell commodities other than labor.
dasil003 8y ago
By that logic every company is already a monopoly in its own labor and a union is just a second monopoly with equivalent bargaining power as a counter balance.