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This has some ideas that are similar to what happens in Germany. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codetermination_in_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codeter

This has some ideas that are similar to what happens in Germany. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codetermination_in_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codetermination_in_Germany Worker representation at the board level is good for companies as well because it can encourage pay restraint when the company really can't afford a pay rise. A board of very rich people telling you the company can't afford a pay rise for you is very different from some of your fellow workers saying the company can't afford a pay rise. The German law goes a lot further than this law does though since it applies to all companies with over 500 employees. Considering Germany is an economic powerhouse this law probably isn't harming the economy.

maxxxxx 8y ago
A Betriebsrat is certainly a very good tool to keep some balance in the power structures of a company. And German companies have done very well with this structure.
jakoblorz 8y ago
"On the assumption that the primary goal of employers is to maximise profits in the interests of shareholders, codetermination can reorient the company's goals in the interests of workers. A better balance may be struck so that the company interests are not so one sided. For unions, codetermination is part of democratising the economy. It is also a way for workers to better the terms and conditions of their contracts in an orderly and regulated way." [1] This is a 100% match to the remarks made in the article. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codetermination_in_Germany#Interests_of_workers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codetermination_in_Germany#Int...
afterburner 8y ago
As good a place as any to remind people German workers have 30 vacation days on average (in addition to 10 public holidays). Somehow the work gets done!
- pimeys 8y ago
  And it's quite common to work 40 hours a week, sometimes even less. And get things done...
  - rdlecler1 8y ago
    Very different cultures, education systems, and housing costs. I doubt you could make an isolated change and get the same result.
    - maym86 8y ago
      Of course not but let's start somewhere. Make gradual socitital changes in all the areas needed starting with this bill. Education and housing reform would also be worthwhile.
    - dhakker 8y ago
      You make a fine argument against isolated and incremental change. I agree. We should aim for nothing less than paradigm shift.
  - afterburner 8y ago
    I believe 35 was standard in France for a while.
- MarkMc 8y ago
  And that Germans work the least out of all OECD countries, working 1288 hours per year vs US citizens 1789 hours and OECD average of 1763 hours. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time#Average_annual_hours_actually_worked_per_worker https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time#Average_annual_...
  - Loic 8y ago
    Note that it is because Germany has the highest percent of part-time jobs, especially poor jobs or the mother in a family. The system is built in a way that it is hard to have two real full-time jobs in a family. It works pretty well in the former East Germany but in the former West, the standard is that after 4PM schools etc. are closed. This has improved in the last years, but not to the point to easily have two full time jobs. This my experience from living 5 years in the former East and afterwards moving to the West (already 7 years).
- extralego 8y ago
  But the money doesn’t pile as high. That’s the problem. There’s nothing here that Marx didn’t articulate ~150 yrs ago.
- adventured 8y ago
  What does that scenario look like if Germany no longer gets to free ride on the Euro at the expense of Spain, Portugal, Greece, Italy? They get to use an artificially cheap currency (cheap for them) to drive the largest trade imbalances on earth. They're plundering the Eurozone and EU, just look at the trade surplus they have in their own economic region ($180b trade surplus just with the EU alone). Were they using their own currency, their exports would suffer immensely. How long can that destabilizing arrangement continue? Not much longer, judging by several of their fellow Eurozone nations. Even with all of that, their median household net worth is still lower than the US.
  - pjc50 8y ago
    What do the internal US trade balances between e.g. California and the rest look like?
    - toast_coder 8y ago
      California exports to the the rest of us mostly. Lots of food, high end manufacturing, services, and they have a huge slice of the asia-us trade logistics.
      - pjc50 8y ago
        So ... why does nobody care about trade deficits in the dollarzone? Why isn't this seen as "plundering"?
        WillPostForFood 8y ago
        Largely shared debt burden via the federal govt?
        toast_coder 8y ago
        Exactly.
  - 8y ago
rmc 8y ago
> Considering Germany is an economic powerhouse this law probably isn't harming the economy. Not only a good economy, but it still has industrial output. There are plenty of big German car companies. It's not just "services". Plenty of politicians want to "bring back those blue collar jobs"
- orf 8y ago
  > Plenty of politicians want to "bring back those blue collar jobs" Do they really, or is that a soundbite they can use to appeal to their demographic?
  - prolikewh0a 8y ago
    Just a soundbyte to sucker in low educated voters who get all of their political ideas from mainstream media.
  - wpietri 8y ago
    And also to excuse giveaways to companies, of course. Who executives will of course give big donations.
    - extralego 8y ago
      Precisely why politicians showing active commitment to not doing this might deserve a chance. http://dsausa.org http://dsausa.org
      - gt_ 8y ago
        Interesting. The homepage exclaims: ”We believe that working people should run both the economy and society democratically to meet human needs, not to make profits for a few. ” Sounds pretty similar to the thinking behind the German setup.
      - foota 8y ago
        There's a large gap between socialism and not taking what are essentially bribes.
baybal2 8y ago
>Considering Germany is an economic powerhouse this law probably isn't harming the economy. Germany is economically successful. But here is few things for you to know about it: 1. the industry taxed near to the limit. 2. Welfare is not cheap by any means. 3. Germany is an ageing country, and the amount of welfare payouts will go even further. I not fan of idea that a company can be public, nor the form of relationships in between its owners and management that evolved in the USA: 1. I find the idea that a man owning a single share of the company can sue the management to death for doing virtually anything. 2. The subsequent dominance of extreme CYA attitudes that American managers are famous for. 3. The fact that company ownership became an extremely bureaucratised thing. I'm a big believer that a business must have an owner. My own experience working in public companies: an omnipresent atmosphere of "ownerlessness" and people not minding "leaving things broken" for reasons that they are not paid to fix them. Without a clear "boss" around, work tend descend into being a Brownian motion. And all of that gets progressively worse closer to C-suite offices, if the company is of type that changed few generations of management. Words of my father: "a collective ownership of business is like life in family where a woman has 10 husbands, all trying to make love to her at the same time."
- prolikewh0a 8y ago
  >1. the industry taxed near to the limit. 2. Welfare is not cheap by any means. 3. Germany is an ageing country, and the amount of welfare payouts will go even further. Want to explain to me how this is even a bad thing? It sounds like the Germans have solidarity for their fellow people/workers and realize everyone should be provided the basics for a peace of mind and overall better workers that can rest and enjoy life outside of work. American capitalism doesn't have to happen everywhere. It's a system that provides for the few instead of the many, unlike Germany that provides for the many instead of the few
  - baybal2 8y ago
    >Want to explain to me how this is even a bad thing? I believe Germany can do even better if they can find ways to reduce the ratio of people in workforce to welfare recipients. Don't forget, we talk about that in the context of EU. Germany is carrying half of EU on its shoulders. >it sounds like the Germans have solidarity for their fellow people/workers and realize everyone should be provided the basics for a peace of mind Doing just "basics for a peace of mind" is doable with not much less, but nevertheless less money. The few developer countries in Asia can show how to do that well. My main criticism is that Germany's welfare is more expensive that that of other countries because not only direct payouts are moderately high, but welfare paid infrastructure and services are taking quite a lot too: lifts for pedestrian overpasses in the middle of nowhere, free transit ticket for people with minimal and non-mobility hampering disabilities, access to free housing (depending on a state) for people with income that qualifies as high in countries just across the border... and on and on Big issue with all extensive welfare systems in the West is that in them, needs of people in need are not being known by people who are entrusted with administering welfare to them. I can easily pull out many example of welfare states where people in need live miserably. When the welfare does not benefit to the person in need, what's use of it? In that case it just becomes wasted money. With all my militant atheism, I can give high mark to welfare administrators in the gulf region. Zakat distribution by mosques is very straightforward, addressing needs of people in need in the most straightforward way. >and overall better workers that can rest and enjoy life outside of work. I believe a professionals can enjoy life even more if they simply get higher salaries. In that context, I believe that German labour councils serve a good role, making people understand that "they can't milk a dead cow." It is very good when both sides can come to terms knowing how much money they can extract from the business before it kicks the bucket.
ChrisLomont 8y ago
>Considering Germany is an economic powerhouse this law probably isn't harming the economy US median household annual disposable PPP income is around $34,000. German median household annual disposable PPP income is around $25,000. Note PPP means adjusted for cost of living, so that is not hiding the difference. There is likely some differences in household makeup, etc., but it seems unlikely that any demographic difference is going to make up for Germans having ~25% less disposable income. So somehow the US system is generating significantly more disposable income for its people. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income
- jamroom 8y ago
  Being median income I have a feeling that the US median is "pulled up" significantly by the top .01% of earners in the US - I have a feeling they account for a far larger amount than the top .01% of German earners. Also - this does not take into account additional costs such as healthcare that will pull down the US amount.
  - ummonk 8y ago
    That's not how the median works though. You're thinking of mean.
  - cal5k 8y ago
    I’d have to dig into the numbers, but the wealthiest Americans get their income via capital gains and dividends, which I’m not sure would be included in those figures.
  - sacheendra 8y ago
    I think you are mistaking median for mean. Mean gets pulled up, median doesn't. It's literally what the guy at 50% mark has.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - penpaul 8y ago
LanceH 8y ago
You've chosen one data point. This may support your claim, or it may be that they are a powerhouse and thus able to afford worker representation as a luxury.
- extralego 8y ago
  OK. I cannot help but be curious how you would differentiate the US. Please elaborate. From your, presumably different view, what would you prescribe? Allow taking advantage of workers until those in power find enough wealth, and only then give workers a voice?
- seandougall 8y ago
  Surely the U.S. isn't exactly an economic underdog, though?
  - hermitdev 8y ago
    Nope. Still #1 in GDP. From 2017 [1], top 10 economies: 1. US - $19.42T GDP (25% of world GDP) 2. China - $11.8T GDP 3. Japan - $4.84T GDP 4. Germany - $3.42T GDP 5. UK - $2.5T GDP 6. India - $2.45T GDP 7. France - $2.42T GDP 8. Brazil - $2.14T GDP 9. Italy - $1.81T GDP 10. Canada - $1.6T GDP Personally, the one that shocked me is Italy, what with the all you see about the country's debt problems, but I hear a lot of that is due to corruption and tax evasion. [1] https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/022415/worlds-top-10-economies.asp https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/022415/world...
    - pimmen 8y ago
      But Italy’s GDP per capita is way behind Northern Europe, which doesn’t have a debt problem. The Nordic countries have a combined GDP of about 1.5 trillion with about half of Italy’s population.
- wjnc 8y ago
  Rhineland model extends to for example the Netherlands as well. Scandinavian model likewise stresses a more diverse outlook on CSR and corporate stakeholders as well. The French model is a theme on its own - more like the other two than Anglo-American, though a lot more state-centric and mired in eternal strife with unions, where the other two are more about cooperation between the different factors of production.
Eridrus 8y ago
> Considering Germany is an economic powerhouse Having seen piles of headlines about stagnant wage growth in Germany, I had to look up some stats, and found these links: https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/wage-growth https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/wage-growth https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/wage-growth https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/wage-growth Except for 2009/10 being particularly bad in the US, wage growth seems much stronger in the US. And when I look at tech salaries in the EU, I'm not sure I want that. Or at least that attitude to compensation.
- jamesmcm 8y ago
  > And when I look at tech salaries in the EU, I'm not sure I want that. Or at least that attitude to compensation. This the same everywhere outside the US though. Salaries are much lower as the skill ceiling tends to be much lower and there is more skilled labour available. The US just has a huge amount of investment, a small skilled labour force and a more meritocratic outlook in general (bear in mind, even just 50 years ago, being a manager or not would depend on your family and school in the UK for example, and you wouldn't even eat with your subordinates). I don't think worker representation would change much there, the Americans already have it so good.
  - Eridrus 8y ago
    I think looking at relative growth numbers is illustrative. Germany should have an easier time hitting high percentage growth than the US, starting from a lower total, but they don't. Though the rest of the continent is doing even worse. But anyway, it makes arguments of "look how well Germany is doing" not very compelling to me. I don't hate the idea of codetermination tbh, but I do have lots of questions about how it would work in practice. At the very least you have to ask whether contractors get a vote, which gets you into a question if incentive and which workers are more or less aligned with a company.

maxxxxx 8y ago

A Betriebsrat is certainly a very good tool to keep some balance in the power structures of a company. And German companies have done very well with this structure.

jakoblorz 8y ago

"On the assumption that the primary goal of employers is to maximise profits in the interests of shareholders, codetermination can reorient the company's goals in the interests of workers. A better balance may be struck so that the company interests are not so one sided. For unions, codetermination is part of democratising the economy. It is also a way for workers to better the terms and conditions of their contracts in an orderly and regulated way." [1] This is a 100% match to the remarks made in the article. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codetermination_in_Germany#Interests_of_workers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codetermination_in_Germany#Int...

afterburner 8y ago

As good a place as any to remind people German workers have 30 vacation days on average (in addition to 10 public holidays). Somehow the work gets done!

pimeys 8y ago
And it's quite common to work 40 hours a week, sometimes even less. And get things done...
- rdlecler1 8y ago
  Very different cultures, education systems, and housing costs. I doubt you could make an isolated change and get the same result.
  - maym86 8y ago
    Of course not but let's start somewhere. Make gradual socitital changes in all the areas needed starting with this bill. Education and housing reform would also be worthwhile.
  - dhakker 8y ago
    You make a fine argument against isolated and incremental change. I agree. We should aim for nothing less than paradigm shift.
- afterburner 8y ago
  I believe 35 was standard in France for a while.
MarkMc 8y ago
And that Germans work the least out of all OECD countries, working 1288 hours per year vs US citizens 1789 hours and OECD average of 1763 hours. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time#Average_annual_hours_actually_worked_per_worker https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time#Average_annual_...
- Loic 8y ago
  Note that it is because Germany has the highest percent of part-time jobs, especially poor jobs or the mother in a family. The system is built in a way that it is hard to have two real full-time jobs in a family. It works pretty well in the former East Germany but in the former West, the standard is that after 4PM schools etc. are closed. This has improved in the last years, but not to the point to easily have two full time jobs. This my experience from living 5 years in the former East and afterwards moving to the West (already 7 years).
extralego 8y ago
But the money doesn’t pile as high. That’s the problem. There’s nothing here that Marx didn’t articulate ~150 yrs ago.
adventured 8y ago
What does that scenario look like if Germany no longer gets to free ride on the Euro at the expense of Spain, Portugal, Greece, Italy? They get to use an artificially cheap currency (cheap for them) to drive the largest trade imbalances on earth. They're plundering the Eurozone and EU, just look at the trade surplus they have in their own economic region ($180b trade surplus just with the EU alone). Were they using their own currency, their exports would suffer immensely. How long can that destabilizing arrangement continue? Not much longer, judging by several of their fellow Eurozone nations. Even with all of that, their median household net worth is still lower than the US.
- pjc50 8y ago
  What do the internal US trade balances between e.g. California and the rest look like?
  - toast_coder 8y ago
    California exports to the the rest of us mostly. Lots of food, high end manufacturing, services, and they have a huge slice of the asia-us trade logistics.
    - pjc50 8y ago
      So ... why does nobody care about trade deficits in the dollarzone? Why isn't this seen as "plundering"?
      - WillPostForFood 8y ago
        Largely shared debt burden via the federal govt?
        toast_coder 8y ago
        Exactly.
- 8y ago

rmc 8y ago

> Considering Germany is an economic powerhouse this law probably isn't harming the economy. Not only a good economy, but it still has industrial output. There are plenty of big German car companies. It's not just "services". Plenty of politicians want to "bring back those blue collar jobs"

orf 8y ago
> Plenty of politicians want to "bring back those blue collar jobs" Do they really, or is that a soundbite they can use to appeal to their demographic?
- prolikewh0a 8y ago
  Just a soundbyte to sucker in low educated voters who get all of their political ideas from mainstream media.
- wpietri 8y ago
  And also to excuse giveaways to companies, of course. Who executives will of course give big donations.
  - extralego 8y ago
    Precisely why politicians showing active commitment to not doing this might deserve a chance. http://dsausa.org http://dsausa.org
    - gt_ 8y ago
      Interesting. The homepage exclaims: ”We believe that working people should run both the economy and society democratically to meet human needs, not to make profits for a few. ” Sounds pretty similar to the thinking behind the German setup.
    - foota 8y ago
      There's a large gap between socialism and not taking what are essentially bribes.

baybal2 8y ago

>Considering Germany is an economic powerhouse this law probably isn't harming the economy. Germany is economically successful. But here is few things for you to know about it: 1. the industry taxed near to the limit. 2. Welfare is not cheap by any means. 3. Germany is an ageing country, and the amount of welfare payouts will go even further. I not fan of idea that a company can be public, nor the form of relationships in between its owners and management that evolved in the USA: 1. I find the idea that a man owning a single share of the company can sue the management to death for doing virtually anything. 2. The subsequent dominance of extreme CYA attitudes that American managers are famous for. 3. The fact that company ownership became an extremely bureaucratised thing. I'm a big believer that a business must have an owner. My own experience working in public companies: an omnipresent atmosphere of "ownerlessness" and people not minding "leaving things broken" for reasons that they are not paid to fix them. Without a clear "boss" around, work tend descend into being a Brownian motion. And all of that gets progressively worse closer to C-suite offices, if the company is of type that changed few generations of management. Words of my father: "a collective ownership of business is like life in family where a woman has 10 husbands, all trying to make love to her at the same time."

prolikewh0a 8y ago
>1. the industry taxed near to the limit. 2. Welfare is not cheap by any means. 3. Germany is an ageing country, and the amount of welfare payouts will go even further. Want to explain to me how this is even a bad thing? It sounds like the Germans have solidarity for their fellow people/workers and realize everyone should be provided the basics for a peace of mind and overall better workers that can rest and enjoy life outside of work. American capitalism doesn't have to happen everywhere. It's a system that provides for the few instead of the many, unlike Germany that provides for the many instead of the few
- baybal2 8y ago
  >Want to explain to me how this is even a bad thing? I believe Germany can do even better if they can find ways to reduce the ratio of people in workforce to welfare recipients. Don't forget, we talk about that in the context of EU. Germany is carrying half of EU on its shoulders. >it sounds like the Germans have solidarity for their fellow people/workers and realize everyone should be provided the basics for a peace of mind Doing just "basics for a peace of mind" is doable with not much less, but nevertheless less money. The few developer countries in Asia can show how to do that well. My main criticism is that Germany's welfare is more expensive that that of other countries because not only direct payouts are moderately high, but welfare paid infrastructure and services are taking quite a lot too: lifts for pedestrian overpasses in the middle of nowhere, free transit ticket for people with minimal and non-mobility hampering disabilities, access to free housing (depending on a state) for people with income that qualifies as high in countries just across the border... and on and on Big issue with all extensive welfare systems in the West is that in them, needs of people in need are not being known by people who are entrusted with administering welfare to them. I can easily pull out many example of welfare states where people in need live miserably. When the welfare does not benefit to the person in need, what's use of it? In that case it just becomes wasted money. With all my militant atheism, I can give high mark to welfare administrators in the gulf region. Zakat distribution by mosques is very straightforward, addressing needs of people in need in the most straightforward way. >and overall better workers that can rest and enjoy life outside of work. I believe a professionals can enjoy life even more if they simply get higher salaries. In that context, I believe that German labour councils serve a good role, making people understand that "they can't milk a dead cow." It is very good when both sides can come to terms knowing how much money they can extract from the business before it kicks the bucket.

ChrisLomont 8y ago

>Considering Germany is an economic powerhouse this law probably isn't harming the economy US median household annual disposable PPP income is around $34,000. German median household annual disposable PPP income is around $25,000. Note PPP means adjusted for cost of living, so that is not hiding the difference. There is likely some differences in household makeup, etc., but it seems unlikely that any demographic difference is going to make up for Germans having ~25% less disposable income. So somehow the US system is generating significantly more disposable income for its people. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income

jamroom 8y ago
Being median income I have a feeling that the US median is "pulled up" significantly by the top .01% of earners in the US - I have a feeling they account for a far larger amount than the top .01% of German earners. Also - this does not take into account additional costs such as healthcare that will pull down the US amount.
- ummonk 8y ago
  That's not how the median works though. You're thinking of mean.
- cal5k 8y ago
  I’d have to dig into the numbers, but the wealthiest Americans get their income via capital gains and dividends, which I’m not sure would be included in those figures.
- sacheendra 8y ago
  I think you are mistaking median for mean. Mean gets pulled up, median doesn't. It's literally what the guy at 50% mark has.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- penpaul 8y ago

LanceH 8y ago

You've chosen one data point. This may support your claim, or it may be that they are a powerhouse and thus able to afford worker representation as a luxury.

extralego 8y ago
OK. I cannot help but be curious how you would differentiate the US. Please elaborate. From your, presumably different view, what would you prescribe? Allow taking advantage of workers until those in power find enough wealth, and only then give workers a voice?
seandougall 8y ago
Surely the U.S. isn't exactly an economic underdog, though?
- hermitdev 8y ago
  Nope. Still #1 in GDP. From 2017 [1], top 10 economies: 1. US - $19.42T GDP (25% of world GDP) 2. China - $11.8T GDP 3. Japan - $4.84T GDP 4. Germany - $3.42T GDP 5. UK - $2.5T GDP 6. India - $2.45T GDP 7. France - $2.42T GDP 8. Brazil - $2.14T GDP 9. Italy - $1.81T GDP 10. Canada - $1.6T GDP Personally, the one that shocked me is Italy, what with the all you see about the country's debt problems, but I hear a lot of that is due to corruption and tax evasion. [1] https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/022415/worlds-top-10-economies.asp https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/022415/world...
  - pimmen 8y ago
    But Italy’s GDP per capita is way behind Northern Europe, which doesn’t have a debt problem. The Nordic countries have a combined GDP of about 1.5 trillion with about half of Italy’s population.
wjnc 8y ago
Rhineland model extends to for example the Netherlands as well. Scandinavian model likewise stresses a more diverse outlook on CSR and corporate stakeholders as well. The French model is a theme on its own - more like the other two than Anglo-American, though a lot more state-centric and mired in eternal strife with unions, where the other two are more about cooperation between the different factors of production.

Eridrus 8y ago

> Considering Germany is an economic powerhouse Having seen piles of headlines about stagnant wage growth in Germany, I had to look up some stats, and found these links: https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/wage-growth https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/wage-growth https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/wage-growth https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/wage-growth Except for 2009/10 being particularly bad in the US, wage growth seems much stronger in the US. And when I look at tech salaries in the EU, I'm not sure I want that. Or at least that attitude to compensation.

jamesmcm 8y ago
> And when I look at tech salaries in the EU, I'm not sure I want that. Or at least that attitude to compensation. This the same everywhere outside the US though. Salaries are much lower as the skill ceiling tends to be much lower and there is more skilled labour available. The US just has a huge amount of investment, a small skilled labour force and a more meritocratic outlook in general (bear in mind, even just 50 years ago, being a manager or not would depend on your family and school in the UK for example, and you wouldn't even eat with your subordinates). I don't think worker representation would change much there, the Americans already have it so good.
- Eridrus 8y ago
  I think looking at relative growth numbers is illustrative. Germany should have an easier time hitting high percentage growth than the US, starting from a lower total, but they don't. Though the rest of the continent is doing even worse. But anyway, it makes arguments of "look how well Germany is doing" not very compelling to me. I don't hate the idea of codetermination tbh, but I do have lots of questions about how it would work in practice. At the very least you have to ask whether contractors get a vote, which gets you into a question if incentive and which workers are more or less aligned with a company.