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The political concerns are real. It's too cynical to say that YC just cares about money, though. There would be better ways to create an incubator than to do it

The political concerns are real. It's too cynical to say that YC just cares about money, though. There would be better ways to create an incubator than to do it like this, if that were the case. One obvious question that hasn't been raised is: "Why not base it in Taiwan?" It's still "China" (for some definition of China), you can still get access to the talent that you want (you just have to try a little harder), and you could still get access to the market you're targeting. It's not going to be easy, but it would better address the political and humanitarian issues raised.

tanilama 8y ago
> and you could still get access to the market you're targeting. This is not true. Taiwanese investment in China is considered 'external'. And Taiwan's talent reserve is no way to be considered as on par against mainland China. But that is not the point either, I think YC just wants an entity in China, not for the talents, but for the market. Under the risk of being downvoted, I have to say China has created some world class startups in the past decade, only second to US.
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago
  China has startups, they are definitely many high in quality, but they aren’t really world class in terms of talent used (almost completely Chinese) and markets targeted (ditto). China will have trouble getting its tech companies to compete abroad when they have closed off their own market so much. Likewise, until China embraces immigration rather than emigration, talent is unlikely to flock to China in any significant numbers.
  - tanilama 8y ago
    Worldclass valuation maybe? Might be more controversial to say, but when it comes to internet, there is China and the rest of world, those are 2 disconnected system, quite literally. So I don't think YC China is priortized to create companies for the whole world, probably just companies that would operate mainly in China, built and run by the locals.
    - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
      Yes, word class valuations for sure. There are many meanings of world class, but one of the popular ones is of global scope.
  - tomtang0514 8y ago
    That's not 100% true. Amazon and (previously) ebay operate in china without problem but don't get a chance facing alibaba. Microsoft also do things fine. Uber was also there. The market that's really closed off are mostly limited to companies that don't support censorship. Also speaking of world class, have you heard of DJI?
    - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
      I did work for MS China for almost 10 years, and Microsoft does sell shrink wrap software in China, but they don't really do services there, they've tried and even though they are on the government's good side, it just never worked out for them. Microsoft is a good example of my claim. Not trying to move the goalpost, but DJI is more of a hardware company, it isn't really an internet one. Any company that can operate outside of a services model will do just fine in China, since they are just shipping product for export.
      - tomtang0514 8y ago
        How is MS a perfect example of your claim? It's proves even US company without much friction operating in China might not succeed. It had nothing to do with China closing off the market. Except the one really banned (google & fb etc), others just don't have a competitive product suitable for chinese market. Also aren't we talking about tech company? Not internet company alone? Or do you consider a market closed off if no foreign internet service company is doing well? In that standard US is also closed off because I can't think of a single successful non US internet company here.
        seanmcdirmid 8y ago
        China's internet market is closed off, not its hardware product one, so Intel still sells a lot of CPUs in China, while DJI sells plenty of drones outside of China and Xiaomi and Huawei even sell phones abroad like Apple can sell phones in China. If you count those as success and proof China is open, then that is definitely your prerogative. But take the typical YC startup business models, most of those aren't going to be in those safe categories.
  - est 8y ago
    The only country had world-class Internet products are US companies.
  - baybal2 8y ago
    >Likewise, until China embraces immigration rather than emigration, talent is unlikely to flock to China in any significant numbers. Isn't it the case already? In our company, the preference to host an overseas talent always goes to China's office for simplicity of immigration process. Secondary to that, I have to admit, is the significantly reduced chance of hostile talent poaching. What was the reason you left China? BTW. Ever crosses paths with Shanghai Bill of Slashdot fame?
    - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
      1. There are almost as many foreigners in Tokyo as there is in China. 2. Most of us left because of the really really bad pollution. You can’t have kids breathing that. 3. I was based in Beijing, not Shanghai.
- kaptain 8y ago
  This assumes that your talent pool is only local. If Chinese (i.e. 大陆) parents would be willing to send their kids all over the world for a university education, do you think it would be a big deal that a Shanghai team moved to Taiwan?
Leary 8y ago
Taiwan was land that was forcibly colonized by the Han Chinese. The original inhabitants are Austronesian people [1] I think a better move would be to move YC China to Vancouver, given the high density of rich Chinese expats in Vancouver, and its status of being in a liberal, western democracy. [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwanese_indigenous_peoples https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwanese_indigenous_peoples [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_Canada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_Canada
- tcmb 8y ago
  Isn't Canada also land that was forcibly colonized, by the French and British?
  - tmoneymoney 8y ago
    Lol
  - Leary 8y ago
    That is whataboutism
    - yladiz 8y ago
      It's not, because you mention directly that YC China should move to Vancouver, and the commenter said that the same issue you have with Taiwan happened in Canada.
    - bena 8y ago
      His point is that there is basically no country on the planet that does not have some history of conquest attached to it. Railing against it just because it's recent is just kind of arguing to a particular status quo. What makes the Chinese takeover of Taiwan any more or less legitimate than the PRC takeover of the mainland?
      - Leary 8y ago
        Okay, I give approval for YC China to be in China.
omeid2 8y ago
> It's too cynical to say that YC just cares about money, though. YC is not a NFP, it is a VC firm. It does indeed just care about money. Thinking otherwise is naive. Sure, YC wouldn't feed babies to lions to make money, but short of direct-- and that is the key word-- contribution to inhuman acts, everything else is fair game for Venture Capitalism.
bnomb3 8y ago
> "Why not base it in Taiwan?" It's still "China" (for some definition of China), you can still get access to the talent that you want (you just have to try a little harder), and you could still get access to the market you're targeting. Native Chinese here. I don't think this is the case. It's not even close to ideal to base in Taiwan given the political environment between the straits nowadays. The policies are very unfriendly. Recruitment and market delivery is even more complicated than between foreign countries actually.
- dionian 8y ago
  well, ROC and PRC are for all intents and purposes foreign to each other... if not hostile
- Kagerjay 8y ago
  Adding onto this, in China you also have to deal with the Great Firewall as well The apps used in Taiwan and China are significantly different. In China, its anything owned by tencent, baidu, or alibaba. The app market in Taiwan uses mostly English offerings (google, facebook, instagram) with a combination of Asianic/Non-china based apps including Line, which is similar to Whatsapp or Wechat.
  - devy 8y ago
    > Adding onto this, in China you also have to deal with the Great Firewall as well Not you don't. For most of the Chinese entrepreneurs create startups inside China - their local market is big enough to not to have to worry about internationalization. The big three you named there, Tencent, Alibaba, Baidu, didn't worry about that at all for many years sine their establishments. > In China, its anything owned by tencent, baidu, or alibaba. There are certain truth to it, but there are exceptions too. I.E. Douyin/Tik Tok(social vlogging) and Pinduoduo (e-commerce) have been immensely popular and successful in recent years and weren't owned (or significantly owned) by the big three.
- kaptain 8y ago
  I agree with you. But I'm not suggesting that people develop business based on the location of YCombinator. YCombinator accepts applicants from all over the world who want to focus on specific issues that their home markets exhibit. Just the other day someone was promoting FinTech for South America. In my OP I said it would be work. It would be more of a challenge for Mainland Chinese applicants to launch their businesses while not being in the Mainland, but if that was their biggest problem then they're prepped for success!
yzh 8y ago
Some of my Taiwanese friends would choose to base their companies at either silicon valley or mainland China, while a lot of my bay area Chinese friends (and friends who received US grad school education) would choose to base their companies in mainland China. Taiwan doesn't really have the ideal startup environment.
maxkwallace 8y ago
Taiwan is not "China" for reasonable and informed definitions of China. Independent of that, to the best of my understanding: (1) The talent pools in Taiwan and China are different (2) The markets in Taiwan and China are very different Right now the Chinese market is more important than the Chinese talent pool, but both are important. Basing an accelerator in Taiwan would be good for Taiwan, but it would not meaningfully engage with the Chinese market or talent pool. It's too late in the game for that. Even if YC's ultimately goal were political and humanitarian it would still be more effective to base the accelerator in China and use the additional leverage gained from being in China to better pursue those goals. Disclosure: I am an American currently living in Taiwan. (edits: grammar)
- nailer 8y ago
  > Taiwan is not "China" for reasonable and informed definitions of China. Taiwan is literally the Republic of China. The leadership is descended from the same people who overcame the Japanese. Pretending the Communist Party has a monopoly on the word 'China' is uninformed and unreasonable. Off topic, a better compromise would have been Hong Kong, inside the PRC with some degree of democracy, though less than originally promised in 1997.
  - qihqi 8y ago
    You are not wrong that Taiwan is part of China according to official definition (from both PRC and Taiwanese gov). However, "Taiwan is literally the Republic of China." is disingenuous considering that their government is not the one that sits in the United Nations.
    - nailer 8y ago
      Taiwan's official name is the Republic of China. How is that disingenuous? They're not at the UN because the PRC is bigger than them and has nukes.
      - chaostheory 8y ago
uRreading2slow 8y ago
> it would better address the political and humanitarian issues raised. That wouldn't make it "better", not doing so makes it completely unacceptable.
b_b 8y ago
I don't think it's too cynical given this move at this point. They have willingly entered into a market where corporations are sponsored for their loyalty to the state, which has done horrendous humanitarian crimes, without which they could have succeeded economically just as well. Seems to me any semblance of a soul has been lost here in favor of pure VC profits.
- PaulHoule 8y ago
  See https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2018/china https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2018/china China gets a score of 14/100 as opposed to Taiwan https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2018/taiwan https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2018/taiwan which gets 93/100. In my mind we should "Look for the Freedom label" and use this as a somewhat objective measure if we want to have free trade with free people.
  - Leary 8y ago
    Freedom house is a US government funded agency that gives better press to countries allied to the US. A better index is the Democracy Index by the Economist [1]. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index
- bjlorenzen 8y ago
  China's actions seem horrendous from our perspective, but at least they are only operating within their own borders. How do you feel about the decades of war and destruction wreaked worldwide by our own government, including the bombing of schoolchildren just this week?
  - b_b 8y ago
    This is some serious whataboutism. Our government may have done horrible things, but that doesn't justify China's in any way either.
- europeanperson 8y ago
  If they were against doing business in countries that have "done horrendous humanitarian crimes", they wouldn't have done business in the U.S.
yumraj 8y ago
I don't think it is too cynical to say that YC just cares about money, as it is not too cynical to say that all VCs and Wall St. financial firms just care about money - unless the VCs charter has some other purpose like social good clearly defined. Moreover, here, it would have been OK if the political climate in China was improving, but it's not. In fact with Xi getting supreme power, it's worsening. So, with that in mind this does not send the proper message. Having said that, YC is a private business, and from where I stand this is not PG/SL's YC, and I have no business projecting my ethics and morality on YC. But, anyone supporting YC in here, should also not be critical of Google or any other company when they do business in China, nor should they be surprised when they hear of atrocities in Tibet, Uighur, Chinese police state etc.
- d2161 8y ago
  As a Canadian looking from the side lines, I have to add that the US isn't doing much better with Donald Trump. I definitely feel that the US is the instigator for the current political cooldown.
echevil 8y ago
> "Why not base it in Taiwan?" Because the startups are simply not there. Why doesn’t US YC base in Puerto Rico
sama 8y ago
It's definitely an area where we will have to tread carefully, and the concerns are for sure real. It was important to us to find an extremely ethically aligned leader. However, I think it's easy to fall into a trap of assuming that everything about China (or any other culture) is worse just because it's different. My experience in China, and talking to Chinese people about their experiences in China, has been very different than what I assumed it would be.

tanilama 8y ago

> and you could still get access to the market you're targeting. This is not true. Taiwanese investment in China is considered 'external'. And Taiwan's talent reserve is no way to be considered as on par against mainland China. But that is not the point either, I think YC just wants an entity in China, not for the talents, but for the market. Under the risk of being downvoted, I have to say China has created some world class startups in the past decade, only second to US.

seanmcdirmid 8y ago
China has startups, they are definitely many high in quality, but they aren’t really world class in terms of talent used (almost completely Chinese) and markets targeted (ditto). China will have trouble getting its tech companies to compete abroad when they have closed off their own market so much. Likewise, until China embraces immigration rather than emigration, talent is unlikely to flock to China in any significant numbers.
- tanilama 8y ago
  Worldclass valuation maybe? Might be more controversial to say, but when it comes to internet, there is China and the rest of world, those are 2 disconnected system, quite literally. So I don't think YC China is priortized to create companies for the whole world, probably just companies that would operate mainly in China, built and run by the locals.
  - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
    Yes, word class valuations for sure. There are many meanings of world class, but one of the popular ones is of global scope.
- tomtang0514 8y ago
  That's not 100% true. Amazon and (previously) ebay operate in china without problem but don't get a chance facing alibaba. Microsoft also do things fine. Uber was also there. The market that's really closed off are mostly limited to companies that don't support censorship. Also speaking of world class, have you heard of DJI?
  - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
    I did work for MS China for almost 10 years, and Microsoft does sell shrink wrap software in China, but they don't really do services there, they've tried and even though they are on the government's good side, it just never worked out for them. Microsoft is a good example of my claim. Not trying to move the goalpost, but DJI is more of a hardware company, it isn't really an internet one. Any company that can operate outside of a services model will do just fine in China, since they are just shipping product for export.
    - tomtang0514 8y ago
      How is MS a perfect example of your claim? It's proves even US company without much friction operating in China might not succeed. It had nothing to do with China closing off the market. Except the one really banned (google & fb etc), others just don't have a competitive product suitable for chinese market. Also aren't we talking about tech company? Not internet company alone? Or do you consider a market closed off if no foreign internet service company is doing well? In that standard US is also closed off because I can't think of a single successful non US internet company here.
      - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
        China's internet market is closed off, not its hardware product one, so Intel still sells a lot of CPUs in China, while DJI sells plenty of drones outside of China and Xiaomi and Huawei even sell phones abroad like Apple can sell phones in China. If you count those as success and proof China is open, then that is definitely your prerogative. But take the typical YC startup business models, most of those aren't going to be in those safe categories.
- est 8y ago
  The only country had world-class Internet products are US companies.
- baybal2 8y ago
  >Likewise, until China embraces immigration rather than emigration, talent is unlikely to flock to China in any significant numbers. Isn't it the case already? In our company, the preference to host an overseas talent always goes to China's office for simplicity of immigration process. Secondary to that, I have to admit, is the significantly reduced chance of hostile talent poaching. What was the reason you left China? BTW. Ever crosses paths with Shanghai Bill of Slashdot fame?
  - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
    1. There are almost as many foreigners in Tokyo as there is in China. 2. Most of us left because of the really really bad pollution. You can’t have kids breathing that. 3. I was based in Beijing, not Shanghai.
kaptain 8y ago
This assumes that your talent pool is only local. If Chinese (i.e. 大陆) parents would be willing to send their kids all over the world for a university education, do you think it would be a big deal that a Shanghai team moved to Taiwan?

Leary 8y ago

Taiwan was land that was forcibly colonized by the Han Chinese. The original inhabitants are Austronesian people [1] I think a better move would be to move YC China to Vancouver, given the high density of rich Chinese expats in Vancouver, and its status of being in a liberal, western democracy. [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwanese_indigenous_peoples https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwanese_indigenous_peoples [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_Canada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_Canada

tcmb 8y ago
Isn't Canada also land that was forcibly colonized, by the French and British?
- tmoneymoney 8y ago
  Lol
- Leary 8y ago
  That is whataboutism
  - yladiz 8y ago
    It's not, because you mention directly that YC China should move to Vancouver, and the commenter said that the same issue you have with Taiwan happened in Canada.
  - bena 8y ago
    His point is that there is basically no country on the planet that does not have some history of conquest attached to it. Railing against it just because it's recent is just kind of arguing to a particular status quo. What makes the Chinese takeover of Taiwan any more or less legitimate than the PRC takeover of the mainland?
    - Leary 8y ago
      Okay, I give approval for YC China to be in China.

omeid2 8y ago

> It's too cynical to say that YC just cares about money, though. YC is not a NFP, it is a VC firm. It does indeed just care about money. Thinking otherwise is naive. Sure, YC wouldn't feed babies to lions to make money, but short of direct-- and that is the key word-- contribution to inhuman acts, everything else is fair game for Venture Capitalism.

bnomb3 8y ago

> "Why not base it in Taiwan?" It's still "China" (for some definition of China), you can still get access to the talent that you want (you just have to try a little harder), and you could still get access to the market you're targeting. Native Chinese here. I don't think this is the case. It's not even close to ideal to base in Taiwan given the political environment between the straits nowadays. The policies are very unfriendly. Recruitment and market delivery is even more complicated than between foreign countries actually.

dionian 8y ago
well, ROC and PRC are for all intents and purposes foreign to each other... if not hostile
Kagerjay 8y ago
Adding onto this, in China you also have to deal with the Great Firewall as well The apps used in Taiwan and China are significantly different. In China, its anything owned by tencent, baidu, or alibaba. The app market in Taiwan uses mostly English offerings (google, facebook, instagram) with a combination of Asianic/Non-china based apps including Line, which is similar to Whatsapp or Wechat.
- devy 8y ago
  > Adding onto this, in China you also have to deal with the Great Firewall as well Not you don't. For most of the Chinese entrepreneurs create startups inside China - their local market is big enough to not to have to worry about internationalization. The big three you named there, Tencent, Alibaba, Baidu, didn't worry about that at all for many years sine their establishments. > In China, its anything owned by tencent, baidu, or alibaba. There are certain truth to it, but there are exceptions too. I.E. Douyin/Tik Tok(social vlogging) and Pinduoduo (e-commerce) have been immensely popular and successful in recent years and weren't owned (or significantly owned) by the big three.
kaptain 8y ago
I agree with you. But I'm not suggesting that people develop business based on the location of YCombinator. YCombinator accepts applicants from all over the world who want to focus on specific issues that their home markets exhibit. Just the other day someone was promoting FinTech for South America. In my OP I said it would be work. It would be more of a challenge for Mainland Chinese applicants to launch their businesses while not being in the Mainland, but if that was their biggest problem then they're prepped for success!

yzh 8y ago

Some of my Taiwanese friends would choose to base their companies at either silicon valley or mainland China, while a lot of my bay area Chinese friends (and friends who received US grad school education) would choose to base their companies in mainland China. Taiwan doesn't really have the ideal startup environment.

maxkwallace 8y ago

Taiwan is not "China" for reasonable and informed definitions of China. Independent of that, to the best of my understanding: (1) The talent pools in Taiwan and China are different (2) The markets in Taiwan and China are very different Right now the Chinese market is more important than the Chinese talent pool, but both are important. Basing an accelerator in Taiwan would be good for Taiwan, but it would not meaningfully engage with the Chinese market or talent pool. It's too late in the game for that. Even if YC's ultimately goal were political and humanitarian it would still be more effective to base the accelerator in China and use the additional leverage gained from being in China to better pursue those goals. Disclosure: I am an American currently living in Taiwan. (edits: grammar)

nailer 8y ago
> Taiwan is not "China" for reasonable and informed definitions of China. Taiwan is literally the Republic of China. The leadership is descended from the same people who overcame the Japanese. Pretending the Communist Party has a monopoly on the word 'China' is uninformed and unreasonable. Off topic, a better compromise would have been Hong Kong, inside the PRC with some degree of democracy, though less than originally promised in 1997.
- qihqi 8y ago
  You are not wrong that Taiwan is part of China according to official definition (from both PRC and Taiwanese gov). However, "Taiwan is literally the Republic of China." is disingenuous considering that their government is not the one that sits in the United Nations.
  - nailer 8y ago
    Taiwan's official name is the Republic of China. How is that disingenuous? They're not at the UN because the PRC is bigger than them and has nukes.
    - chaostheory 8y ago

uRreading2slow 8y ago

> it would better address the political and humanitarian issues raised. That wouldn't make it "better", not doing so makes it completely unacceptable.

b_b 8y ago

I don't think it's too cynical given this move at this point. They have willingly entered into a market where corporations are sponsored for their loyalty to the state, which has done horrendous humanitarian crimes, without which they could have succeeded economically just as well. Seems to me any semblance of a soul has been lost here in favor of pure VC profits.

PaulHoule 8y ago
See https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2018/china https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2018/china China gets a score of 14/100 as opposed to Taiwan https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2018/taiwan https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2018/taiwan which gets 93/100. In my mind we should "Look for the Freedom label" and use this as a somewhat objective measure if we want to have free trade with free people.
- Leary 8y ago
  Freedom house is a US government funded agency that gives better press to countries allied to the US. A better index is the Democracy Index by the Economist [1]. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index
bjlorenzen 8y ago
China's actions seem horrendous from our perspective, but at least they are only operating within their own borders. How do you feel about the decades of war and destruction wreaked worldwide by our own government, including the bombing of schoolchildren just this week?
- b_b 8y ago
  This is some serious whataboutism. Our government may have done horrible things, but that doesn't justify China's in any way either.
europeanperson 8y ago
If they were against doing business in countries that have "done horrendous humanitarian crimes", they wouldn't have done business in the U.S.

yumraj 8y ago

I don't think it is too cynical to say that YC just cares about money, as it is not too cynical to say that all VCs and Wall St. financial firms just care about money - unless the VCs charter has some other purpose like social good clearly defined. Moreover, here, it would have been OK if the political climate in China was improving, but it's not. In fact with Xi getting supreme power, it's worsening. So, with that in mind this does not send the proper message. Having said that, YC is a private business, and from where I stand this is not PG/SL's YC, and I have no business projecting my ethics and morality on YC. But, anyone supporting YC in here, should also not be critical of Google or any other company when they do business in China, nor should they be surprised when they hear of atrocities in Tibet, Uighur, Chinese police state etc.

d2161 8y ago
As a Canadian looking from the side lines, I have to add that the US isn't doing much better with Donald Trump. I definitely feel that the US is the instigator for the current political cooldown.

echevil 8y ago

> "Why not base it in Taiwan?" Because the startups are simply not there. Why doesn’t US YC base in Puerto Rico

sama 8y ago

It's definitely an area where we will have to tread carefully, and the concerns are for sure real. It was important to us to find an extremely ethically aligned leader. However, I think it's easy to fall into a trap of assuming that everything about China (or any other culture) is worse just because it's different. My experience in China, and talking to Chinese people about their experiences in China, has been very different than what I assumed it would be.