7 ms·

I find it funny how YC is focusing only on places where the majority of the world won’t or can’t easily work (US visa policy is atrocious and getting worse ever

by ulfw 8y ago

I find it funny how YC is focusing only on places where the majority of the world won’t or can’t easily work (US visa policy is atrocious and getting worse every year + raising xenophobia in recent times) and China isn’t an easy country to navigate if you don’t speak Mandarin, let alone succeed in as a foreigner (for a variety of reasons). Asia and Europe are big places as are Canada and Australia. Time to think broader than just US+China!

seanmcdirmid 8y ago
Mandarin isn't strictly necessary to live in China. Plenty of my laowai colleagues only knew a few words and got along just fine in a tier one Beijing, which admittedly is a bit behind Shanghai and Shenzhen. The only thing that really drove us out was the pollution (a huge problem in Beijing that is supposedly finally getting better). Given the US visa policy, as bad as it is, still attracts far more many foreigners than China, at least. More than most countries actually even by per capita measures.
- telltruth 8y ago
  > Mandarin isn't strictly necessary to live in China Basic question: what do you do in China for browsing, emails and maps? I suppose Google doesn't work there and all the local services would be in Mandarin, no? When I travel I use Google search, emails, maps extensively but I have no clue what would I do in China. Also FB and Twitter also likely won't be accessible. So how do I even keep touch with folks outside China, especially if I don't know Mandarin?
  - lhl 8y ago
    For a long while shadowsocks/shadowsocksr (the latter being more actively developed) has been preferred way to bypass the GFW although what works is constantly changing. This was an interesting write up passed a couple years ago where a dev tries out various methods for bypass on a China trip: http://blog.zorinaq.com/my-experience-with-the-great-firewall-of-china/ http://blog.zorinaq.com/my-experience-with-the-great-firewal...
  - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
    Many foreigners have VPNs, but many do not. They aren't the easiest thing to set up, and they often close shop a few weeks after you pay a yearly subscription fee. Email: I use outlook.com, but I shut my gmail account long before gmail was blocked. I'm weird. maps: Apple Maps on an iphone works well enough. Not sure if gmaps on Android works or not. Many Google services still work even if a few are blocked. Browsing: many websites work in China, but I also had full internet access at work for when I needed it, so Facebooking family was easy enough, I just didn't use it at night when I was at home...I didn't miss it. Its definitely isolating, but not incredibly so. If you are addicted to social media, this can even help you become unaddicted, weird therapy for sure :)
    - avcdsuia 8y ago
      For crying out loud, even using github based services like 'go get' or homebrew without proxies is a real pain in the arse, stop defending your 'it's not that bad' view cos it is.
      - dang 8y ago
        Please don't cross into flamewar mode. We're trying to avoid that here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - telltruth 8y ago
      Is VPN legal? What are English options for maps with transit available without vpn?
      - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
        Apple maps works perfectly fine in China. I’m not sure what it’s like for android users. It includes transit, at least for Beijing, see https://www.apple.com/ios/feature-availability/ https://www.apple.com/ios/feature-availability/. I always took a taxi though so that wasn’t very important to me, so I used mostly the didi dache app.
  - teekno 8y ago
    I'm moving to China in a week for graduate school and have been asking myself many of these questions :) In past trips to China, VPN services--specially Express VPN--allowed me to easily bypass the Great Firewall. That unlocks Twitter, FB, Google services, etc. That being said, many services don't have a great experience in China. For example, Google Maps doesn't offer public transit or driving instructions. In these cases, using the chinese-based app (Du Maps) is just far better.
  - Jommi 8y ago
    VPN or V2RAY etc. Fix that issue. It's still excruciatingly slow tho.
  - gpetukhov 8y ago
    I spent a couple hours setting up an OpenVPN server on AWS EC2 nano instance so it's going to be completely free for the first year. Speed is not great but enough to watch HD youtube videos, etc. I know have unrestricted internet on both my phone and macbook. Follow this tutorial: https://www.comparitech.com/blog/vpn-privacy/how-to-make-your-own-free-vpn-using-amazon-web-services/#gref https://www.comparitech.com/blog/vpn-privacy/how-to-make-you...
  - davidzweig 8y ago
    Some options: >> ExpressVPN worked well on windows, although flakey for me on Android. >> Set up ShadowSocks on a server outside China. >> Buy a SIM card in Hong Kong, they apparently maintain their unrestricted internet access even in the mainland.
  - qiqing 8y ago
    Get a SIM card from Project Fi (by Google), which auto-VPN's for you, and you can use everything (FB, Twitter, etc.) you're used to using. Bring a Chromebook and use your phone to provide Internet for your Chromebook. Install Didi so you can hail a ride. Install WeChat and some of the mini apps so that you can order Starbucks without waiting in line. Since you probably don't have a Chinese bank account, find a local (possibly even a hotel concierge) who is willing to take cash from you and send you some RMB into your WeChat account so you can pay vendors, including restaurant bills, train tickets, farmer's markets, and the guy on the street corner selling oranges. Pretty straight forward.
- fhe 8y ago
  to live in China, one could get by with little to no mandarin; but to do business in China, mandarin is a must.
  - natch 8y ago
    Considering that there are over 300 million, yes million, people in China who do not speak Mandarin, I'd say yes one could get by. I'd even venture to say many of these 300 million people also do business in China. But yeah, I know what you meant.
    - stevechu 8y ago
      If you mean that these 300 million do not have Chinese as the first language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_China then it would be correct. But every kid growing up in China has to learn Chinese in school (plus TV etc).
      - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
        I’ve run into old people in China who don’t speak a word of mandarin, especially in Tibetan areas. They get the kids to translate for them.
      - natch 8y ago
        Wrong. A lot of people grew up before this started. And no, I removed the Mandarin-as-an-additional-language people from the number already. (Mandarin 1st + Mandarin as a 2nd or 3rd languages speakers) = 1.1 billion. Population of China, 1.4 billion. 1.4 billion minus 1.1 billion is 300 million.
    - tanilama 8y ago
      > Considering that there are over 300 million, yes million, people in China who do not speak Mandarin I don't think your numbers are right. Tibet has 4 million population. Xinjiang has 20 million, among which 50% are Han. Those are only 2 provinces where I can think of that doesn't require Mandarin to get by in certain area. The rest of China, at least, could understand Mandarin without problems.
- yzh 8y ago
  I think compared to pollution, political situation and education is more concerned.
fsloth 8y ago
1. It's not about empowering everyone on the planet, it's about creating companies which become billion dollar unicorns 2. The probability of Unicornism is directly related to the size of the market you can access. US is the biggest single market on the planet. 3. Accessibility of markets: While EU is the second largest single market [0] US companies have entered european markets just fine. On the other hand, to operate in china, it's best to be a chinese company. Hence, to fund growth on a global scale going native in china is an obvious move. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)&mobileaction=toggle_view_desktop#Lists https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_countries...
- Cthulhu_ 8y ago
  > US is the biggest single market on the planet. By which measure? China has nearly five times as many inhabitants, the biggest economic growth over the past three decades of any country, and out-produces the US by over nine thousand. If it's not yet the biggest market on the planet yet, it soon will be.
  - jacobush 8y ago
    It will be, sure, but it's not there. Also the markets are very different - the Chinese government is much more likely to take an active role in the governing of large companies.
  - ekianjo 8y ago
    China may become richer but it will have to deal with the effects of a very fast aging population as well which will impede its economy as well.
  - zavi 8y ago
    By monetary measure.
- Gwaih1r 8y ago
  Are you sure nominal GDP is the right metric to be using to compare market size? By adjusted (PPP) GDP it's China, EU and then the US. Those billions can go a lot further in China and the EU than they can in the US. https://www.thebalance.com/world-s-largest-economy-3306044 https://www.thebalance.com/world-s-largest-economy-3306044
echevil 8y ago
It’s not hard to understand if you just take a look at stats in the past few years on where recent startups are founded, and where VC money goes. Language barrier is not an issue for YC - they can just hire mandarin speakers like Lu Qi. I’m sure YC China would get mostly Chinese employees.
tanilama 8y ago
It should be easy to see, China and US are where money are. There is advantage to have a local branch there. YC is a venture capital, don't pretend it is something else.
yzh 8y ago
I think YC China would mainly help local tech talents to launch startups with a focus on China's markets first. If you look at how many tech startups are located in Beijing (some of them are tier-one companies: Tusimple, uisee, bytedance, mobvoi, megvii, just to name a few), you would know that they have made the right choice.
sama 8y ago
We fund startups all around the world! In the rare cases where a founder is unable to get a US visa for the duration of our program, we are open to doing something remote. We offer a lot of help figuring out the US visa system, which is in my opinion extremely sub-optimal. I believe talent is equally distributed in the world, and the US should want as many talented founders to come create businesses here as possible. China is an especially interesting market to us given the quality of companies and entrepreneurs we see there.

by ulfw 8y ago

seanmcdirmid 8y ago

Mandarin isn't strictly necessary to live in China. Plenty of my laowai colleagues only knew a few words and got along just fine in a tier one Beijing, which admittedly is a bit behind Shanghai and Shenzhen. The only thing that really drove us out was the pollution (a huge problem in Beijing that is supposedly finally getting better). Given the US visa policy, as bad as it is, still attracts far more many foreigners than China, at least. More than most countries actually even by per capita measures.

telltruth 8y ago
> Mandarin isn't strictly necessary to live in China Basic question: what do you do in China for browsing, emails and maps? I suppose Google doesn't work there and all the local services would be in Mandarin, no? When I travel I use Google search, emails, maps extensively but I have no clue what would I do in China. Also FB and Twitter also likely won't be accessible. So how do I even keep touch with folks outside China, especially if I don't know Mandarin?
- lhl 8y ago
  For a long while shadowsocks/shadowsocksr (the latter being more actively developed) has been preferred way to bypass the GFW although what works is constantly changing. This was an interesting write up passed a couple years ago where a dev tries out various methods for bypass on a China trip: http://blog.zorinaq.com/my-experience-with-the-great-firewall-of-china/ http://blog.zorinaq.com/my-experience-with-the-great-firewal...
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago
  Many foreigners have VPNs, but many do not. They aren't the easiest thing to set up, and they often close shop a few weeks after you pay a yearly subscription fee. Email: I use outlook.com, but I shut my gmail account long before gmail was blocked. I'm weird. maps: Apple Maps on an iphone works well enough. Not sure if gmaps on Android works or not. Many Google services still work even if a few are blocked. Browsing: many websites work in China, but I also had full internet access at work for when I needed it, so Facebooking family was easy enough, I just didn't use it at night when I was at home...I didn't miss it. Its definitely isolating, but not incredibly so. If you are addicted to social media, this can even help you become unaddicted, weird therapy for sure :)
  - avcdsuia 8y ago
    For crying out loud, even using github based services like 'go get' or homebrew without proxies is a real pain in the arse, stop defending your 'it's not that bad' view cos it is.
    - dang 8y ago
      Please don't cross into flamewar mode. We're trying to avoid that here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - telltruth 8y ago
    Is VPN legal? What are English options for maps with transit available without vpn?
    - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
      Apple maps works perfectly fine in China. I’m not sure what it’s like for android users. It includes transit, at least for Beijing, see https://www.apple.com/ios/feature-availability/ https://www.apple.com/ios/feature-availability/. I always took a taxi though so that wasn’t very important to me, so I used mostly the didi dache app.
- teekno 8y ago
  I'm moving to China in a week for graduate school and have been asking myself many of these questions :) In past trips to China, VPN services--specially Express VPN--allowed me to easily bypass the Great Firewall. That unlocks Twitter, FB, Google services, etc. That being said, many services don't have a great experience in China. For example, Google Maps doesn't offer public transit or driving instructions. In these cases, using the chinese-based app (Du Maps) is just far better.
- Jommi 8y ago
  VPN or V2RAY etc. Fix that issue. It's still excruciatingly slow tho.
- gpetukhov 8y ago
  I spent a couple hours setting up an OpenVPN server on AWS EC2 nano instance so it's going to be completely free for the first year. Speed is not great but enough to watch HD youtube videos, etc. I know have unrestricted internet on both my phone and macbook. Follow this tutorial: https://www.comparitech.com/blog/vpn-privacy/how-to-make-your-own-free-vpn-using-amazon-web-services/#gref https://www.comparitech.com/blog/vpn-privacy/how-to-make-you...
- davidzweig 8y ago
  Some options: >> ExpressVPN worked well on windows, although flakey for me on Android. >> Set up ShadowSocks on a server outside China. >> Buy a SIM card in Hong Kong, they apparently maintain their unrestricted internet access even in the mainland.
- qiqing 8y ago
  Get a SIM card from Project Fi (by Google), which auto-VPN's for you, and you can use everything (FB, Twitter, etc.) you're used to using. Bring a Chromebook and use your phone to provide Internet for your Chromebook. Install Didi so you can hail a ride. Install WeChat and some of the mini apps so that you can order Starbucks without waiting in line. Since you probably don't have a Chinese bank account, find a local (possibly even a hotel concierge) who is willing to take cash from you and send you some RMB into your WeChat account so you can pay vendors, including restaurant bills, train tickets, farmer's markets, and the guy on the street corner selling oranges. Pretty straight forward.
fhe 8y ago
to live in China, one could get by with little to no mandarin; but to do business in China, mandarin is a must.
- natch 8y ago
  Considering that there are over 300 million, yes million, people in China who do not speak Mandarin, I'd say yes one could get by. I'd even venture to say many of these 300 million people also do business in China. But yeah, I know what you meant.
  - stevechu 8y ago
    If you mean that these 300 million do not have Chinese as the first language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_China then it would be correct. But every kid growing up in China has to learn Chinese in school (plus TV etc).
    - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
      I’ve run into old people in China who don’t speak a word of mandarin, especially in Tibetan areas. They get the kids to translate for them.
    - natch 8y ago
      Wrong. A lot of people grew up before this started. And no, I removed the Mandarin-as-an-additional-language people from the number already. (Mandarin 1st + Mandarin as a 2nd or 3rd languages speakers) = 1.1 billion. Population of China, 1.4 billion. 1.4 billion minus 1.1 billion is 300 million.
  - tanilama 8y ago
    > Considering that there are over 300 million, yes million, people in China who do not speak Mandarin I don't think your numbers are right. Tibet has 4 million population. Xinjiang has 20 million, among which 50% are Han. Those are only 2 provinces where I can think of that doesn't require Mandarin to get by in certain area. The rest of China, at least, could understand Mandarin without problems.
yzh 8y ago
I think compared to pollution, political situation and education is more concerned.

fsloth 8y ago

1. It's not about empowering everyone on the planet, it's about creating companies which become billion dollar unicorns 2. The probability of Unicornism is directly related to the size of the market you can access. US is the biggest single market on the planet. 3. Accessibility of markets: While EU is the second largest single market [0] US companies have entered european markets just fine. On the other hand, to operate in china, it's best to be a chinese company. Hence, to fund growth on a global scale going native in china is an obvious move. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)&mobileaction=toggle_view_desktop#Lists https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_countries...

Cthulhu_ 8y ago
> US is the biggest single market on the planet. By which measure? China has nearly five times as many inhabitants, the biggest economic growth over the past three decades of any country, and out-produces the US by over nine thousand. If it's not yet the biggest market on the planet yet, it soon will be.
- jacobush 8y ago
  It will be, sure, but it's not there. Also the markets are very different - the Chinese government is much more likely to take an active role in the governing of large companies.
- ekianjo 8y ago
  China may become richer but it will have to deal with the effects of a very fast aging population as well which will impede its economy as well.
- zavi 8y ago
  By monetary measure.
Gwaih1r 8y ago
Are you sure nominal GDP is the right metric to be using to compare market size? By adjusted (PPP) GDP it's China, EU and then the US. Those billions can go a lot further in China and the EU than they can in the US. https://www.thebalance.com/world-s-largest-economy-3306044 https://www.thebalance.com/world-s-largest-economy-3306044

echevil 8y ago

It’s not hard to understand if you just take a look at stats in the past few years on where recent startups are founded, and where VC money goes. Language barrier is not an issue for YC - they can just hire mandarin speakers like Lu Qi. I’m sure YC China would get mostly Chinese employees.

tanilama 8y ago

It should be easy to see, China and US are where money are. There is advantage to have a local branch there. YC is a venture capital, don't pretend it is something else.

yzh 8y ago

I think YC China would mainly help local tech talents to launch startups with a focus on China's markets first. If you look at how many tech startups are located in Beijing (some of them are tier-one companies: Tusimple, uisee, bytedance, mobvoi, megvii, just to name a few), you would know that they have made the right choice.

sama 8y ago

We fund startups all around the world! In the rare cases where a founder is unable to get a US visa for the duration of our program, we are open to doing something remote. We offer a lot of help figuring out the US visa system, which is in my opinion extremely sub-optimal. I believe talent is equally distributed in the world, and the US should want as many talented founders to come create businesses here as possible. China is an especially interesting market to us given the quality of companies and entrepreneurs we see there.