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These ebikes that are designed to look like motorcycles are a bane and shouldn't be allowed to be driven without a license and insurance. In the Toronto area w

These ebikes that are designed to look like motorcycles are a bane and shouldn't be allowed to be driven without a license and insurance. In the Toronto area we often see these bombing around, riders acting like they are motorcycles but having no training or understanding of safe practices, not wearing proper safety equipment, and several of the privately owned ones have been modified to increase their speed significantly. I have no issue with the tech, I think it could be a great green solution, but the policies and regulations around it need to get caught up before people are seriously injured.

singularity2001 8y ago
additionally/alternatively close one road after another for cars and make it exclusively pedestrian/cycling ground.
- evgen 8y ago
  And keep everything that is not powered exclusively by muscles out of those areas.
coldtea 8y ago
>not wearing proper safety equipment, Well, that's their problem. Also take a look at how 3 billion people ride their motorcycles and mopeds (often 3-5 at a time) in e.g. China, India, Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam, etc. and the complains against ebikes are absolutely nullified...
- kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
  Take a look at the chaos in their streets and the associated fatalities.
- sandworm101 8y ago
  >> Well, that's their problem. I don;t live in Cambodia. When people here get hurt in my neighborhood they block traffic, are taken to hospital and are treated by teams of government-paid professionals. Then if they have severe head injuries that medical treatment may continue for many decades. We insist on helmets, as we insist on things like brakes and seatbelts, because we know that individual injuries quickly become everyone's problem.
- catherd 8y ago
  I live in China and walked by one of those e-bike food delivery guys the other day. He was casually sitting on the sidewalk with his gear halfway taken off (I guess on break). Most of the skin on the front of his knee was completely, all the way down to the muscle and kneecap, gone. Looked like it was a few days old. If you look at the road mortality statistics for those countries you'll see that safety equipment and regulations are absolutely necessary if you want to avoid lots of pain and suffering, and externalities. It's just those places simply can't afford them and deal with it in ways more advanced economies aren't prepared to accept.
- toomanybeersies 8y ago
  Riding a motorbike in Vietnam is a completely different experience to riding a motorbike in a western country. People are actually aware of motorbikes, since it's the primary method of transport. Also, traffic moves a lot slower, you're usually riding at only 20-30 km/h in town in Vietnam. I felt much safer riding a motorbike in Vietnam than in New Zealand. Upon saying that, the road injury and fatality statistics for the countries you mentioned are shocking. Vietnam is 2.5x higher than the USA for road fatalities per 100,000 per year, and the USA itself is shockingly high for a developed country, they're double Australia's rate.
  - agumonkey 8y ago
    I wonder if the AI gang will set up labs in Asian countries. It seems to be the forefront of massive multi-agent free floating shared space mobility.. So much ML training.
  - r00fus 8y ago
    I wonder if per-capita is a misleading measure here. Clearly density (i.e. people or vehicles per sq. mi ) is more predictive of your accident rates.
    - baq 8y ago
      The standard measure is per million miles or kilometers driven.
  - coldtea 8y ago
    >Upon saying that, the road injury and fatality statistics for the countries you mentioned are shocking. Vietnam is 2.5x higher than the USA for road fatalities per 100,000 per year Just 2.5x doesn't sound shocking to me -- and probably the most of the difference is not even caused by driving patterns. E.g. the road conditions in Vietnam vs the US, and the vehicle conditions there (breaks, mechanical faults, age, etc.) compared to the US...
- EpicEng 8y ago
  >Well, that's their problem. You could say the same of seatbelts, yet their use is enforced by law because automobile fatalaties were a major public health problem. Society has an interest in protecting those who don't protect themselves.
  - coldtea 8y ago
    >You could say the same of seatbelts, yet their use is enforced by law because automobile fatalaties were a major public health problem. Was it because of that, or merely because the government just likes to overreach and regulate?
    - EpicEng 8y ago
      It was because of that, I promise.
cjensen 8y ago
The article says they can go 30mph. The law in most US states says that speed makes it a motorcycle. In your home province of Ontario, it also makes it a motorcycle. [1] In California, for example, that means helmet is required and the operator must have driver's license that includes motorcycle operation. This is why most ebikes sold in the US are limited to 20mph. So yeah, I don't get it. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws
- sandworm101 8y ago
  Cops never enforce these rules, at least not pre-accident. Pulling over a scooter, checking the license, and then checking the specifics of the vehicle, takes time. They have bigger fish to fry (speeding/parking tickets). In my area we have color-coded stickers on our license plates so that cops can see whether your insurance is still valid. It isn't a perfect system, but a special license plate for non-motorcycle things might make their job easier. Everyone without the special plate would need a motorcycle license. What really gets me angry is dealerships selling scooters, even full motorcycles, to people without appropriate licenses. You don't need a license to own a car/truck/motorcycle, only to use it. They know what they are doing when they sell a 250cc scooter to someone without a license.
  - sokoloff 8y ago
    Given that you don’t need a license to own one, why would you be upset that a business sells them without checking for a license?
    - sandworm101 8y ago
      Because kids are buying bikes and riding them without licenses. They either get hurt or cause injury, which is a bigger financial deal given they won't have insurance coverage. During the first months of summer, cops also regularly pull over sportbikes because they know so many (most?) aren't properly licensed. Just as I would be liable for handing my keys to an unlicensed rider, businesses should not allow purchasers to drive away without a license.
walshemj 8y ago
The "mopeds" are actually gas scooters and presumably in the USA you need a licence and training for those and they have to stay on the road. Though personally I would prefer a proper modern Vespa
NikolaNovak 8y ago
Agreed; I have been driving for 20 years, motorcycle rider for 10 (and have owned anything from 50cc scooter which was my favourite, through 400cc supermoto to 750cc adventure/touring), enjoy bicycles - but the e-scooters / electric mopeds in Toronto, Canada are absolutely horrendous. They follow no particular rules of traffic - one second they are a vehicle occupying middle of a lane and blocking other vehicles. Next second they are a bicycle scooching to the right of the lane. Then they are pedestrian, crossing the street over a pedestrian crossing when all the rest of the traffic has come to a stop. All throughout they are drunkenly weaving in and out with no predictability or order. They have no training, no safety equipment, no licensing, no enforcement, no accountability, and no care. In the meantime everybody else around them is trying very very very hard not to be part of a fatal accident. So like the poster, I have no problem with technology. I have huge problems with lack of regulation and enforcement, and/or the users of such vehicles. They are fairly explicitly advertised as tool to avoid regulation, insurance, rules and safety, for their own personal selfish convenience; and again, explicitly designed to mislead - they are designed to look like a motorized scooter [why not make them look like an eBike that they are?], but with semi-functional pedals so they can claim they are a bicycle. Get these punks off my lawn! :-) [and let the hate and downvote begin!:]
- Haydos585x2 8y ago
  There's a few people around me that ride them around and I feel the same way as you. I very very rarely ride my motorbike wihtout at least kevlar leggings and a kevlar jacket but I see these inexperienced riders riding through the streets and footpaths at 40km/h with a bicycle helmet on and a kid on the back, sometimes with a helmet, sometimes without. It's dumb. It's also unfortunate that it's going to take ~10 people to die/permanent disability before anything is done about it. I think you're right about the design of the bikes too. The ones I see are definitely designed to look and function like a moped/motorcycle.
- kough 8y ago
  Every single one of these complaints can and is frequently made about bicyclists as well. Maybe the problem is the increased number of people using bikes of any sort without training rather than anything specific about the fact that they're motorized.

singularity2001 8y ago

additionally/alternatively close one road after another for cars and make it exclusively pedestrian/cycling ground.

evgen 8y ago
And keep everything that is not powered exclusively by muscles out of those areas.

coldtea 8y ago

>not wearing proper safety equipment, Well, that's their problem. Also take a look at how 3 billion people ride their motorcycles and mopeds (often 3-5 at a time) in e.g. China, India, Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam, etc. and the complains against ebikes are absolutely nullified...

kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
Take a look at the chaos in their streets and the associated fatalities.
sandworm101 8y ago
>> Well, that's their problem. I don;t live in Cambodia. When people here get hurt in my neighborhood they block traffic, are taken to hospital and are treated by teams of government-paid professionals. Then if they have severe head injuries that medical treatment may continue for many decades. We insist on helmets, as we insist on things like brakes and seatbelts, because we know that individual injuries quickly become everyone's problem.
catherd 8y ago
I live in China and walked by one of those e-bike food delivery guys the other day. He was casually sitting on the sidewalk with his gear halfway taken off (I guess on break). Most of the skin on the front of his knee was completely, all the way down to the muscle and kneecap, gone. Looked like it was a few days old. If you look at the road mortality statistics for those countries you'll see that safety equipment and regulations are absolutely necessary if you want to avoid lots of pain and suffering, and externalities. It's just those places simply can't afford them and deal with it in ways more advanced economies aren't prepared to accept.
toomanybeersies 8y ago
Riding a motorbike in Vietnam is a completely different experience to riding a motorbike in a western country. People are actually aware of motorbikes, since it's the primary method of transport. Also, traffic moves a lot slower, you're usually riding at only 20-30 km/h in town in Vietnam. I felt much safer riding a motorbike in Vietnam than in New Zealand. Upon saying that, the road injury and fatality statistics for the countries you mentioned are shocking. Vietnam is 2.5x higher than the USA for road fatalities per 100,000 per year, and the USA itself is shockingly high for a developed country, they're double Australia's rate.
- agumonkey 8y ago
  I wonder if the AI gang will set up labs in Asian countries. It seems to be the forefront of massive multi-agent free floating shared space mobility.. So much ML training.
- r00fus 8y ago
  I wonder if per-capita is a misleading measure here. Clearly density (i.e. people or vehicles per sq. mi ) is more predictive of your accident rates.
  - baq 8y ago
    The standard measure is per million miles or kilometers driven.
- coldtea 8y ago
  >Upon saying that, the road injury and fatality statistics for the countries you mentioned are shocking. Vietnam is 2.5x higher than the USA for road fatalities per 100,000 per year Just 2.5x doesn't sound shocking to me -- and probably the most of the difference is not even caused by driving patterns. E.g. the road conditions in Vietnam vs the US, and the vehicle conditions there (breaks, mechanical faults, age, etc.) compared to the US...
EpicEng 8y ago
>Well, that's their problem. You could say the same of seatbelts, yet their use is enforced by law because automobile fatalaties were a major public health problem. Society has an interest in protecting those who don't protect themselves.
- coldtea 8y ago
  >You could say the same of seatbelts, yet their use is enforced by law because automobile fatalaties were a major public health problem. Was it because of that, or merely because the government just likes to overreach and regulate?
  - EpicEng 8y ago
    It was because of that, I promise.

cjensen 8y ago

The article says they can go 30mph. The law in most US states says that speed makes it a motorcycle. In your home province of Ontario, it also makes it a motorcycle. [1] In California, for example, that means helmet is required and the operator must have driver's license that includes motorcycle operation. This is why most ebikes sold in the US are limited to 20mph. So yeah, I don't get it. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws

sandworm101 8y ago
Cops never enforce these rules, at least not pre-accident. Pulling over a scooter, checking the license, and then checking the specifics of the vehicle, takes time. They have bigger fish to fry (speeding/parking tickets). In my area we have color-coded stickers on our license plates so that cops can see whether your insurance is still valid. It isn't a perfect system, but a special license plate for non-motorcycle things might make their job easier. Everyone without the special plate would need a motorcycle license. What really gets me angry is dealerships selling scooters, even full motorcycles, to people without appropriate licenses. You don't need a license to own a car/truck/motorcycle, only to use it. They know what they are doing when they sell a 250cc scooter to someone without a license.
- sokoloff 8y ago
  Given that you don’t need a license to own one, why would you be upset that a business sells them without checking for a license?
  - sandworm101 8y ago
    Because kids are buying bikes and riding them without licenses. They either get hurt or cause injury, which is a bigger financial deal given they won't have insurance coverage. During the first months of summer, cops also regularly pull over sportbikes because they know so many (most?) aren't properly licensed. Just as I would be liable for handing my keys to an unlicensed rider, businesses should not allow purchasers to drive away without a license.

walshemj 8y ago

The "mopeds" are actually gas scooters and presumably in the USA you need a licence and training for those and they have to stay on the road. Though personally I would prefer a proper modern Vespa

NikolaNovak 8y ago

Agreed; I have been driving for 20 years, motorcycle rider for 10 (and have owned anything from 50cc scooter which was my favourite, through 400cc supermoto to 750cc adventure/touring), enjoy bicycles - but the e-scooters / electric mopeds in Toronto, Canada are absolutely horrendous. They follow no particular rules of traffic - one second they are a vehicle occupying middle of a lane and blocking other vehicles. Next second they are a bicycle scooching to the right of the lane. Then they are pedestrian, crossing the street over a pedestrian crossing when all the rest of the traffic has come to a stop. All throughout they are drunkenly weaving in and out with no predictability or order. They have no training, no safety equipment, no licensing, no enforcement, no accountability, and no care. In the meantime everybody else around them is trying very very very hard not to be part of a fatal accident. So like the poster, I have no problem with technology. I have huge problems with lack of regulation and enforcement, and/or the users of such vehicles. They are fairly explicitly advertised as tool to avoid regulation, insurance, rules and safety, for their own personal selfish convenience; and again, explicitly designed to mislead - they are designed to look like a motorized scooter [why not make them look like an eBike that they are?], but with semi-functional pedals so they can claim they are a bicycle. Get these punks off my lawn! :-) [and let the hate and downvote begin!:]

Haydos585x2 8y ago
There's a few people around me that ride them around and I feel the same way as you. I very very rarely ride my motorbike wihtout at least kevlar leggings and a kevlar jacket but I see these inexperienced riders riding through the streets and footpaths at 40km/h with a bicycle helmet on and a kid on the back, sometimes with a helmet, sometimes without. It's dumb. It's also unfortunate that it's going to take ~10 people to die/permanent disability before anything is done about it. I think you're right about the design of the bikes too. The ones I see are definitely designed to look and function like a moped/motorcycle.
kough 8y ago
Every single one of these complaints can and is frequently made about bicyclists as well. Maybe the problem is the increased number of people using bikes of any sort without training rather than anything specific about the fact that they're motorized.