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I think this is the "missing link" in the new transportation ecosystem. Right now, alternative transport exists in a sort of grey zone where if you ride on roa

I think this is the "missing link" in the new transportation ecosystem. Right now, alternative transport exists in a sort of grey zone where if you ride on roads drivers are angry about how you're taking their space, and if you ride on sidewalks people are angry about how you're taking their space. mopeds look enough like a motorbike and are already accepted enough that a high enough concentration of them could go a long way towards taking back the road as a true multi-use space, rather than a car exclusive space that other users sometimes get to encroach onto. mopeds and bicycles and jump scooters can all coexist in the same space happily. mopeds and cars can coexist happily.

martythemaniak 8y ago
As a visitor, I would say one under-appreciated aspect of Dutch bikes lanes is that they're not really bike lanes. Practically, 95% or more of the vehicles on there are bicycles, yeah, but the other 5% are all sorts of wonderfully wacky vehicles, some motorized (mostly electric) some not. It seems to work like this: Are you in big, heavy and fast vehicle? Go in Road Type 1 (cars, trucks, motorcycles) Are you vehicle-less, or is your vehicle very slow or non-motorized? Go in Road Type 2 (pedestrians, strollers, wheelchairs, etc) Are something else? Go in Road type 3 (bicycles, mopeds, electric bikes, electric skateboards, non-car people movers etc etc). In North America, rather than building Road Type 3, we fight viciously over how to sort a galaxy of vehicles into Road Types 1 and 2. Even when a 3rd road type is built, they are frequently designated for some exclusive type of vehicle - ie, places where non-pedelec e-bikes or electric skateboards are not allowed in bike lanes.
- ghaff 8y ago
  Amsterdam's actually banning scooters from bike lanes as I understand it. [1] Which seems reasonable. When I was there recently, there were certainly some vehicles using the bike lanes that didn't seem to belong. [1] https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/a3nng4/amsterdam-is-enacting-a-scooter-ban-cyclists-ebikes https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/a3nng4/amsterdam-...
- icebraining 8y ago
  This will actually change, mopeds will be banned from bike paths in Amsterdam: https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2018/06/mopeds-may-be-banned-from-amsterdam-bike-lanes-next-january/ https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2018/06/mopeds-may-be-banned-f...
- lylecubed 8y ago
  I agree with you about the 3 types of roads and especially that most of the USA don't build Road Type 3 enough (fully separated lanes, please!). But, which kind of vehicle goes on which road type has more to do with speed than size.
- micheljansen 8y ago
  Nice observation. I live in the Netherlands and the fastest growing “type 3” vehicle is not the moped but the electric bicycle. All the benefits of a bicycle with the increased range of a moped.
- tomatotomato37 8y ago
  Why delegate motorcycles to the same category as cars? The lighter ones solve the horrendous density problem of cars just as well as other forms of transport, yet are also able to keep up the with regular cars on the motorway.
  - bunderbunder 8y ago
    Because a motorcycle moving at 40+kph in what is, in effect, an extension of the sidewalk is a terrifying prospect, and a motorcycle going at 15kph just to be in the bike lane would defeat the purpose of owning a motorcycle instead of something less expensive.
- jakobegger 8y ago
  Having a moped race past you with 50km/h on a bike lane is a pretty terrifying experience and I'd much prefer that they use roads. Bike lanes are too narrow for motorised vehicles, and some ebikes are pushing the limits as well (eg. Urban Arrow bikes don't make me feel very safe on narrow bike lanes either)
  - kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
    Sensible places ban all motor vehicles from sidewalks and bike paths. They belong in the road with other low speed ICE powered scooters and mopeds.
    - CalRobert 8y ago
      A bike with a small electric motor is no problem in a bike path, and allows people who have mobility issues, just don't like sweating up a hill on the way to work, etc. to still cycle instead of drive. A low powered moped doesn't belong in the road in most places.
  - jessaustin 8y ago
    That's true but some motorized gadgets are pretty slow. One time, due to a stoplight, I crossed an intersection at the same time as a guy on some sort of skateboard with an engine. My acceleration on my bicycle was much better than his, and I left him far behind. Several blocks later (this was a road with few stoplights), I heard his noisy approach from behind and enjoyed his triumphant smile at having finally overtaken me. Apparently his motor had a bit more power once it got totally revved up... The point is, he was a menace to anyone on the (thankfully deserted) sidewalk, and would have been something of hazard in the street.
    - teachrdan 8y ago
      I would hazard that the limiting factor for the skateboarder wasn't the motor but the fact that if he accelerated as quickly as the motor would allow he'd fly off of it. Electric motors are notoriously torque-y. (which many users enjoy)
josefresco 8y ago
Drivers and pedestrians are angry because some bikers want to be treated as cars AND ALSO sometimes pedestrians. Drivers don't want to kill anyone, and pedestrians don't want to be maimed.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- notatoad 8y ago
  >Drivers don't want to kill anyone this is not universally true. in the rare case they do (i know a guy who was intentionally run down), and in the common case they just don't care, assuming that any cyclist-involved collision is the cyclists fault for being on the road. your attitude here - to immediately call out cyclists specifically, just because i dared to suggest that non-car, non-pedestrian traffic deserves a safe space to travel in - is exactly the problem. The roads are not the private domain of the automobile, and as long as people treat them like they are, some traffic will be forced to seek refuge on the sidewalk.
- freehunter 8y ago
  Well bikers are angry because they don't want to be treated as cars OR as pedestrians, but those are the only two classifications much of the US has. Many people on a bike are unable to even maintain 25mph for a slow city road, let alone 45mph or 55mph, so treating them like cars is ridiculous. But they do commonly go over 3mph, which is the speed of your average pedestrian. Bikers want to be treated like bikers. Unfortunately that classification doesn't really exist in the US so it becomes situational.
  - u801e 8y ago
    Is a cyclist going 15 mph in a 25 mph zone much worse than a truck going 55 mph in a 65 mph zone?
    - jstanley 8y ago
      The difference is that trucks are slow and heavy, and bicycles are slow and light. People are afraid of crashing their car into a truck. A bicycle is just a little annoyance in the road that you squeeze past as quickly as possible. They're not at all comparable.

martythemaniak 8y ago

As a visitor, I would say one under-appreciated aspect of Dutch bikes lanes is that they're not really bike lanes. Practically, 95% or more of the vehicles on there are bicycles, yeah, but the other 5% are all sorts of wonderfully wacky vehicles, some motorized (mostly electric) some not. It seems to work like this: Are you in big, heavy and fast vehicle? Go in Road Type 1 (cars, trucks, motorcycles) Are you vehicle-less, or is your vehicle very slow or non-motorized? Go in Road Type 2 (pedestrians, strollers, wheelchairs, etc) Are something else? Go in Road type 3 (bicycles, mopeds, electric bikes, electric skateboards, non-car people movers etc etc). In North America, rather than building Road Type 3, we fight viciously over how to sort a galaxy of vehicles into Road Types 1 and 2. Even when a 3rd road type is built, they are frequently designated for some exclusive type of vehicle - ie, places where non-pedelec e-bikes or electric skateboards are not allowed in bike lanes.

ghaff 8y ago
Amsterdam's actually banning scooters from bike lanes as I understand it. [1] Which seems reasonable. When I was there recently, there were certainly some vehicles using the bike lanes that didn't seem to belong. [1] https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/a3nng4/amsterdam-is-enacting-a-scooter-ban-cyclists-ebikes https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/a3nng4/amsterdam-...
icebraining 8y ago
This will actually change, mopeds will be banned from bike paths in Amsterdam: https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2018/06/mopeds-may-be-banned-from-amsterdam-bike-lanes-next-january/ https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2018/06/mopeds-may-be-banned-f...
lylecubed 8y ago
I agree with you about the 3 types of roads and especially that most of the USA don't build Road Type 3 enough (fully separated lanes, please!). But, which kind of vehicle goes on which road type has more to do with speed than size.
micheljansen 8y ago
Nice observation. I live in the Netherlands and the fastest growing “type 3” vehicle is not the moped but the electric bicycle. All the benefits of a bicycle with the increased range of a moped.
tomatotomato37 8y ago
Why delegate motorcycles to the same category as cars? The lighter ones solve the horrendous density problem of cars just as well as other forms of transport, yet are also able to keep up the with regular cars on the motorway.
- bunderbunder 8y ago
  Because a motorcycle moving at 40+kph in what is, in effect, an extension of the sidewalk is a terrifying prospect, and a motorcycle going at 15kph just to be in the bike lane would defeat the purpose of owning a motorcycle instead of something less expensive.
jakobegger 8y ago
Having a moped race past you with 50km/h on a bike lane is a pretty terrifying experience and I'd much prefer that they use roads. Bike lanes are too narrow for motorised vehicles, and some ebikes are pushing the limits as well (eg. Urban Arrow bikes don't make me feel very safe on narrow bike lanes either)
- kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
  Sensible places ban all motor vehicles from sidewalks and bike paths. They belong in the road with other low speed ICE powered scooters and mopeds.
  - CalRobert 8y ago
    A bike with a small electric motor is no problem in a bike path, and allows people who have mobility issues, just don't like sweating up a hill on the way to work, etc. to still cycle instead of drive. A low powered moped doesn't belong in the road in most places.
- jessaustin 8y ago
  That's true but some motorized gadgets are pretty slow. One time, due to a stoplight, I crossed an intersection at the same time as a guy on some sort of skateboard with an engine. My acceleration on my bicycle was much better than his, and I left him far behind. Several blocks later (this was a road with few stoplights), I heard his noisy approach from behind and enjoyed his triumphant smile at having finally overtaken me. Apparently his motor had a bit more power once it got totally revved up... The point is, he was a menace to anyone on the (thankfully deserted) sidewalk, and would have been something of hazard in the street.
  - teachrdan 8y ago
    I would hazard that the limiting factor for the skateboarder wasn't the motor but the fact that if he accelerated as quickly as the motor would allow he'd fly off of it. Electric motors are notoriously torque-y. (which many users enjoy)

josefresco 8y ago

Drivers and pedestrians are angry because some bikers want to be treated as cars AND ALSO sometimes pedestrians. Drivers don't want to kill anyone, and pedestrians don't want to be maimed.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
notatoad 8y ago
>Drivers don't want to kill anyone this is not universally true. in the rare case they do (i know a guy who was intentionally run down), and in the common case they just don't care, assuming that any cyclist-involved collision is the cyclists fault for being on the road. your attitude here - to immediately call out cyclists specifically, just because i dared to suggest that non-car, non-pedestrian traffic deserves a safe space to travel in - is exactly the problem. The roads are not the private domain of the automobile, and as long as people treat them like they are, some traffic will be forced to seek refuge on the sidewalk.
freehunter 8y ago
Well bikers are angry because they don't want to be treated as cars OR as pedestrians, but those are the only two classifications much of the US has. Many people on a bike are unable to even maintain 25mph for a slow city road, let alone 45mph or 55mph, so treating them like cars is ridiculous. But they do commonly go over 3mph, which is the speed of your average pedestrian. Bikers want to be treated like bikers. Unfortunately that classification doesn't really exist in the US so it becomes situational.
- u801e 8y ago
  Is a cyclist going 15 mph in a 25 mph zone much worse than a truck going 55 mph in a 65 mph zone?
  - jstanley 8y ago
    The difference is that trucks are slow and heavy, and bicycles are slow and light. People are afraid of crashing their car into a truck. A bicycle is just a little annoyance in the road that you squeeze past as quickly as possible. They're not at all comparable.