4 ms·

I'm looking back through this ... so .. did he ever tell her to stop? Forget about who is the man and who is the woman in this and think about just two people.

I'm looking back through this ... so .. did he ever tell her to stop? Forget about who is the man and who is the woman in this and think about just two people. The partner, who is your student yes, but they still accept all your flirtations, sleep in the same bed with you, cuddle with you, and either don't show any signs they're uncomfortable or you're just really not socially aware and don't real them. They graduated and then sue you for the entire, what was in your mind, "relationship." She probably loved this guy. She probably thought he loved her, or at least felt something for her. I dunno. Are we going to now require contracts before going into any relationship that might involve a power dynamic?

lainga 8y ago
Under the aegis of #metoo, he had to give explicit consent.
horsawlarway 8y ago
Right from the article: ---- “She put my hands onto her breasts, and was pressing herself — her buttocks — onto my crotch,” he said. “She was kissing me, kissing my hands, kissing my torso.” That evening, a similar scene played out again, he said. He confronted her the next morning, he said. “I said, look, what happened yesterday was not O.K. You’re my adviser,” ----
- IshKebab 8y ago
  Not the strongest "no". But on the other hand how many of the #metoo women said no? I think the implication is that they don't have the option.
  - justwalt 8y ago
    Not the strongest no? I don’t think it left any room for doubt.
  - RangerScience 8y ago
    I would agree. Part of why it's risky ground to try to be in some kind of romantic/sexual relationship while there is a institutional power dynamic between two people is the risk that the one in less power cannot say "No", and/or that saying "no" will be detrimental to their well-being.
  - deadmetheny 8y ago
    sounds like victim blaming but OK
  - dhimes 8y ago
    Why the heck is this being downvoted? That is the big problem: When someone has power over you you don't have the option to say "no." That's the entire goddamn point.
    - UncleMeat 8y ago
      Because "it would have been different if you'd said 'no' more clearly" is a horribly common refrain that should be removed from our vocabulary. A weak no is still no and we should never criticize somebody for having a hard time saying no forcefully. Affirmative and enthusiastic consent.
  - camel_Snake 8y ago
    And this is why enthusiastic consent is a thing. You shouldn't be looking for a 'no' to stop, you should be looking for a 'yes!' to continue.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
cryptonector 8y ago
When there is a significant power differential, can the victim effectively say no? Can they say no at all? It is pretty clear that some victims can't bring themselves to or don't think they can, and that some offenders understand that and depend on it to get away with their offenses. I have no idea if that is what happened here, naturally, so I won't comment on that. > Are we going to now require contracts before going into any relationship that might involve a power dynamic? In many enterprises (universities included) there is a blanket prohibition on sexual relationships between persons whose organizational power differs. In those cases the answer to your question is "no, you're not allowed to engage in such a relationship at all, contract or no contract". Consent isn't always sufficient. It is very important to forbid sexual relationships between professors and their students, for otherwise a) professors are arguably taking advantage of their students with whom they engage in sex (even if the students don't think so), and b) other students are put at a (real or perceived) disadvantage and/or encouraged to do the same to get similar (real or perceived) benefits to those who are already engaging in sexual relationships with their professors. Similarly, it is important that managers not have sexual relationships with the people they manage. This applies to military organizations as well, not just private enterprise, and it should apply to civilian government organizations. People who find themselves wanting to be in such relationships have choices besides violating applicable regulations: don't do it, move elsewhere in the organization (e.g., switch classes) or quit it altogether in order to be free to engage in a relationship with the other person. Many people actually make those choices, often happily. This has not been a controversial position in decades. There are controversies in this topic area, such as how Title IX should be interpreted and enforced, but regulation of power-asymmetrical relationships is not controversial.
klipt 8y ago
> Are we going to now require contracts before going into any relationship that might involve a power dynamic? I don't think such a contract would be enforceable. It's better to avoid relationships with people you have power over entirely, because they may feel forced to comply to avoid you wielding power over them in revenge.
- beat 8y ago
  It's already in a contract before the relationship ever starts - namely, the university/company's sexual harassment policy, most of which prohibit relationships like this one, for exactly this reason. And such contractual bindings are becoming more widespread, because to not explicitly ban power-differential relationships in the workplace (including teacher-student) opens the organization to lawsuits.
wsy 8y ago
As professor, you can't have a sexual relationship with your students. It is taboo, exactly because of the huge power asymmetry. Like teacher-pupil, therapist-patient, etc. Of course, each individually case could be a healthy relationship, but there are too many dangers, so society has established a boundary. Surprise, this applies to female professors, too.
- dhimes 8y ago
  AFAIK it is not yet forbidden by all colleges. It is kind of a recent transformation, partially as a result of the movement.
  - djsumdog 8y ago
    I went to school in 2000 - 2004 and students would say that if you got in a relationship with a professor or TA, they were required to transfer you to another class. My math professor said, "Show me in the handbook where it says that." He then corrected me that, at least at our university, there were no explicit policies on teacher/student relationships. That professor said that every year, they got a big e-mail from the president reminding them of the sexual harassment policy. If it's a company, yes they can have a policy that says "don't date across pay grades or you get fired." And some people fall in love and they take that risk and when the company finds out, they move them to different departments. .. Or they get fired; so they have to find new jobs. Hopefully it was worth it. Private schools could probably do the same thing. In the public service space, it gets considerably harder to write these types of policies.

lainga 8y ago

Under the aegis of #metoo, he had to give explicit consent.

horsawlarway 8y ago

Right from the article: ---- “She put my hands onto her breasts, and was pressing herself — her buttocks — onto my crotch,” he said. “She was kissing me, kissing my hands, kissing my torso.” That evening, a similar scene played out again, he said. He confronted her the next morning, he said. “I said, look, what happened yesterday was not O.K. You’re my adviser,” ----

IshKebab 8y ago
Not the strongest "no". But on the other hand how many of the #metoo women said no? I think the implication is that they don't have the option.
- justwalt 8y ago
  Not the strongest no? I don’t think it left any room for doubt.
- RangerScience 8y ago
  I would agree. Part of why it's risky ground to try to be in some kind of romantic/sexual relationship while there is a institutional power dynamic between two people is the risk that the one in less power cannot say "No", and/or that saying "no" will be detrimental to their well-being.
- deadmetheny 8y ago
  sounds like victim blaming but OK
- dhimes 8y ago
  Why the heck is this being downvoted? That is the big problem: When someone has power over you you don't have the option to say "no." That's the entire goddamn point.
  - UncleMeat 8y ago
    Because "it would have been different if you'd said 'no' more clearly" is a horribly common refrain that should be removed from our vocabulary. A weak no is still no and we should never criticize somebody for having a hard time saying no forcefully. Affirmative and enthusiastic consent.
- camel_Snake 8y ago
  And this is why enthusiastic consent is a thing. You shouldn't be looking for a 'no' to stop, you should be looking for a 'yes!' to continue.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

cryptonector 8y ago

When there is a significant power differential, can the victim effectively say no? Can they say no at all? It is pretty clear that some victims can't bring themselves to or don't think they can, and that some offenders understand that and depend on it to get away with their offenses. I have no idea if that is what happened here, naturally, so I won't comment on that. > Are we going to now require contracts before going into any relationship that might involve a power dynamic? In many enterprises (universities included) there is a blanket prohibition on sexual relationships between persons whose organizational power differs. In those cases the answer to your question is "no, you're not allowed to engage in such a relationship at all, contract or no contract". Consent isn't always sufficient. It is very important to forbid sexual relationships between professors and their students, for otherwise a) professors are arguably taking advantage of their students with whom they engage in sex (even if the students don't think so), and b) other students are put at a (real or perceived) disadvantage and/or encouraged to do the same to get similar (real or perceived) benefits to those who are already engaging in sexual relationships with their professors. Similarly, it is important that managers not have sexual relationships with the people they manage. This applies to military organizations as well, not just private enterprise, and it should apply to civilian government organizations. People who find themselves wanting to be in such relationships have choices besides violating applicable regulations: don't do it, move elsewhere in the organization (e.g., switch classes) or quit it altogether in order to be free to engage in a relationship with the other person. Many people actually make those choices, often happily. This has not been a controversial position in decades. There are controversies in this topic area, such as how Title IX should be interpreted and enforced, but regulation of power-asymmetrical relationships is not controversial.

klipt 8y ago

> Are we going to now require contracts before going into any relationship that might involve a power dynamic? I don't think such a contract would be enforceable. It's better to avoid relationships with people you have power over entirely, because they may feel forced to comply to avoid you wielding power over them in revenge.

beat 8y ago
It's already in a contract before the relationship ever starts - namely, the university/company's sexual harassment policy, most of which prohibit relationships like this one, for exactly this reason. And such contractual bindings are becoming more widespread, because to not explicitly ban power-differential relationships in the workplace (including teacher-student) opens the organization to lawsuits.

wsy 8y ago

As professor, you can't have a sexual relationship with your students. It is taboo, exactly because of the huge power asymmetry. Like teacher-pupil, therapist-patient, etc. Of course, each individually case could be a healthy relationship, but there are too many dangers, so society has established a boundary. Surprise, this applies to female professors, too.

dhimes 8y ago
AFAIK it is not yet forbidden by all colleges. It is kind of a recent transformation, partially as a result of the movement.
- djsumdog 8y ago
  I went to school in 2000 - 2004 and students would say that if you got in a relationship with a professor or TA, they were required to transfer you to another class. My math professor said, "Show me in the handbook where it says that." He then corrected me that, at least at our university, there were no explicit policies on teacher/student relationships. That professor said that every year, they got a big e-mail from the president reminding them of the sexual harassment policy. If it's a company, yes they can have a policy that says "don't date across pay grades or you get fired." And some people fall in love and they take that risk and when the company finds out, they move them to different departments. .. Or they get fired; so they have to find new jobs. Hopefully it was worth it. Private schools could probably do the same thing. In the public service space, it gets considerably harder to write these types of policies.