20 ms·

Apparently in Ancient Rome, the ceremony of opening of the bridge consisted of placing the Engineers and Architects who built it to be under the bridge and marc

by dreen 8y ago

Apparently in Ancient Rome, the ceremony of opening of the bridge consisted of placing the Engineers and Architects who built it to be under the bridge and marching an army Legion over the bridge. Today we have courts and laws to deal with this but every story like this is a reminder of responsibility put into Civil Engineers. But also it serves as a reminder that any Engineering discipline, including Software, has to have accountability and ethics standards. edit: I'm not blaming anyone for this tragic accident. The cause will be found eventually. What I mean is it's important to remember how your work may impact lives, regardless of what that work is.

ra 8y ago
Let's not jump to conclusions. The only facts we know are that the bridge collapsed and a bunch of people died. Let's not turn the conversation to "blame the engineer". Accountability and ethics are the yardstick everyone is measured by.
- jnxx 8y ago
  Blame, no. But going into the cause is more than warranted. Seemed like an Italian academic called it an "failure of engineering" two years ago, and another construction of the same engineer was reported to have collapsed in earlier years.
onetimemanytime 8y ago
Apparently this was built in the 1960's. Not sure if lack of maintenance is to blame or original design.
- cptskippy 8y ago
  The average lifespan of a bridge is about 70 years.
  - gokhan 8y ago
    And requires no maintenance?
    - cptskippy 8y ago
      They definitely require routine maintenance and inspection. The Nondestructive Testing article I linked to in another comment said "significant environmental damage requiring repair typically occurs before the average bridge reaches mid-life."
  - SamUK96 8y ago
    It would be very interesting to know how bridge metrics (length, load specification, etc.) relate the longevity. Of course, some bridges last for centuries, but some last for decades. This is an order of magnitude!
    - Piskvorrr 8y ago
      Spoiler: they don't, yet they do, Theseus' ship-style. For all the centuries-old bridges still in use around here, there's only a few bits and pieces left from the original, the rest has been replaced multiple times over as a part of maintenance. The difference here is probably maintainability: for a stone arch design, you can prop it up for safety, replace a few stones, and voila, like new. For a cable-stayed and/or concrete design...not really. In other words, the bridges that have "lasted for centuries" have hot-swappable parts ;)
  - arethuza 8y ago
    Isn't that just a function of when most highway construction took place in Europe and the US?
    - cptskippy 8y ago
      Lifespan, not age. Most bridges where built after 1945 with a life expectancy between 70-75 years. https://www.nde-ed.org/AboutNDT/SelectedApplications/Bridge_Inspection/Bridge_Inspection.htm https://www.nde-ed.org/AboutNDT/SelectedApplications/Bridge_...
- arethuza 8y ago
  The Kingston Bridge in Glasow, which opened in 1970, has had to have a huge amount of work done over the years - there were problems with both the original design, the actual construction and the face it was carrying far more traffic than expected: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingston_Bridge,_Glasgow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingston_Bridge,_Glasgow
  - jnxx 8y ago
    Edinburgh's Forth Road Bridge was also partially closed in 2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forth_Road_Bridge#Structural_issues https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forth_Road_Bridge#Structural_i...
- lultimouomo 8y ago
  Before the fall there was already a lot of talk about the constant, excessive maintenance and repairs needed by the bridge; there was discussion if the best way to go forward was a major overhaul or just demolition (of course such talk could have gone on for years or decades before anything was made). In the '80s the support structures were already reinforced and apparently it took years of filling the subsidences in the asphalt surface for it to stabilize and provide a level surface for the cars. I'm not a structural engineer and I am in no position to judge, but there definitely was the suspicion that the design of the bridge was flawed, even before today.
  - jaclaz 8y ago
    >I'm not a structural engineer and I am in no position to judge, but there definitely was the suspicion that the design of the bridge was flawed, even before today. The bridge was - at the time - a bleeding edge of concrete technology, designed by the greatest expert in concrete (and pre-compression) in Italy (and probably in the world), Riccardo Morandi. He designed also the Maracaibo Bridge: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Rafael_Urdaneta_Bridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Rafael_Urdaneta_Bridge Allow me to doubt that the design had structural flaws, though it is true that at the time some aspects of long span pre-stressed concrete structures were not yet fully undestood, namely creep and shrinkage: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creep_and_shrinkage_of_concrete https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creep_and_shrinkage_of_concret... Which have definitely increased the need for maintenance, shortening the expected working life of similar structures. However from the little it can be seen from the photos that have been posted here and there, it seems like the initial point of failure was not the bridge (meaning the deck) but rather the pier, causing the two adjoining spans to collapse.
    - practice9 8y ago
      Experts do make mistakes sometimes
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
- HelloNurse 8y ago
  According to news reports, likely immediate causes include lightning striking one of the pillars, wind and overload. It seems quite certain that the bridge was somewhat decrepit, and some media report that consolidation work was in progress.
  - jnxx 8y ago
    How can lightning cause a bridge to collapse?
24gttghh 8y ago
I don't see why one would jump to blaming the engineers from the 1960's instead of the very government bureaucracy that was responsible for funding the maintenance and oversight of the bridge for over five decades. I do wonder if it is possible the "violent downburst" in the article could have created enough force on the bridge to push it past it's load-rating though. edit: I should add that it could very well be the fault of an engineer from 50 years ago (poor design, implementation), but this just happened today and it will take a while for people to figure out what really happened, and without any other data my first inclination is to think "poor maintenance" as that is what Occam's Razor (simple: lack of maintenance is very common these days, at least in the US: prepare to be afraid of many bridges you drive over[0]) and then there's the whole downburst thing that seems vaguely plausible for now. edit2: "The U.S. has 614,387 bridges, almost four in 10 of which are 50 years or older. 56,007 — 9.1% — of the nation’s bridges were structurally deficient in 2016, and on average there were 188 million trips across a structurally deficient bridge each day. While the number of bridges that are in such poor condition as to be considered structurally deficient is decreasing, the average age of America’s bridges keeps going up and many of the nation’s bridges are approaching the end of their design life. The most recent estimate puts the nation’s backlog of bridge rehabilitation needs at $123 billion."[1] [0]https://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/americas-grades/ https://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/americas-grades/ [1]https://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/cat-item/bridges/ https://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/cat-item/bridges/
- simtel20 8y ago
  I don't perceive any blame in the comment you are responding to, only observations relating to the history of bridges and the responsibility that comes with it. What did you feel was assigning blame when you read it?
  - wastedhours 8y ago
    Whether or not it was intended, the entire comment implies exactly that - particularly with the call to the responsibility, ethics and standards of the civil engineers. For example, if someone dies in a car crash, it's a little out of context for you to focus on the responsibility and ethics of the car designer over and above the circumstances of the crash. Usually the latter focus is for when there's concern about said ethics and responsibilities.
agumonkey 8y ago
I understand the idea but there's a threshold of diminishing returns when putting too much pressure on a position. Lots of doctors work with lawyers in mind, and will refuse tasks because of risk. Other fields have similar subpar performance due to high responsibility stress. We need to increase quality but not at the expense of people working.
- acomjean 8y ago
  As a former civil engineer, at least in the US you need a license from the state to stamp a design before anyone will build it, so accountability is built into the process. Its actually stressful and the pay isn't that great. I did mostly landfill design which is a little different, but slope stability and retention pond calculations were always checked and double checked. Though there is always ongoing maintenance which would be the owner responsibility.
  - agumonkey 8y ago
    Sure, there's always a level of responsibility but at one point it becomes unfair and counter productive.
mabbo 8y ago
Engineers in Canada wear "iron" rings that are meant to be representative of this responsibility[0]. While not actually true, most of the time people talk about it they claim the rings were originally made from a failed beam of the first Quebec Bridge[1], improperly engineered. My wife has three pieces of jewelry- engagement ring, wedding ring, iron ring. She doesn't tell me which one she loves best. [0]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Ring https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Ring [1]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_Bridge https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_Bridge
- Insanity 8y ago
  That's actually a really cool tradition imo. Never heard about it until now. Thanks for that!
  - PakG1 8y ago
    I had thought it was a North American thing, if not a worldwide thing. Canadian speaking. Goes to show that it's easy to assume the world is the same everywhere.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - 3rdAccount 8y ago
      American Universities with engineering departments have an Order of the Engineer ceremony and I recall some people got rings I think. It's been a few years though.
- tempVariable 8y ago
  As a cannuck, I can chuckle at the fact that one of our Ontario bridges lasted 42 days before it failed.[1] [1]https://globalnews.ca/news/2957484/design-improperly-tightened-bolts-named-as-factors-in-nipigon-bridge-failure/ https://globalnews.ca/news/2957484/design-improperly-tighten...
jaclaz 8y ago
Naah, this is folklore: https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/18558/were-roman-engineers-required-to-stand-beneath-their-bridges-as-they-were-tested https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/18558/were-roma... As a matter of fact if you have a legion marching on it, almost any bridge will collapse, there is a reason why, when soldiers cross bridges they are ordered to "break stride" in order to avoid possible issues with resonance of the structure. And of course, while placing architects and engineers under the bridge was "fair", the poor soldiers were innocent (and at the time among valuable resources to society) so their lives wouldn't have been deliberately risked. There are some (unconfirmed) reports about the architect standing below the bridge when the scaffolding/support was removed, however.
- moviuro 8y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angers_Bridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angers_Bridge : Soldiers create resonance on a brdige, making it collapse.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - mannykannot 8y ago
    There is actually little evidence here that a resonance excited by marching soldiers caused this bridge to fall. The article says that, as usual, the soldiers were instructed to break step when crossing. The article cites a powerful thunderstorm, the effect of strong gusts being 'caught' by the massed soldiers on the bridge, and corrosion of the cables at their anchorages, as likely causes. A survivor reported that the soldiers were stumbling around as if drunk, and could barely stand. There was some speculation that the motion of the bridge caused the soldiers to respond in a coordinated way that exacerbated the swaying, but lurching from side to side is hardly marching. Contrary to what the grandparent post says, few bridges are susceptible to being brought down by marching.
- baxtr 8y ago
  I think I’ve read something similar about the ex-dictator in Albania, who would place engineers into bunkers they've constructed and then fire on them to see if they hold EDIT: found a source, seems to be a true story https://www.balkanride.com/2017/03/07/albanias-concrete-bunkers-defences-against-an-enemy-that-never-came/ https://www.balkanride.com/2017/03/07/albanias-concrete-bunk...
lmm 8y ago
Much software does not have lives depending on it and it would be wasteful to treat it as though it did.
- Insanity 8y ago
  Software in cars, planes, other types of transportation. Medical software, military programs, the software used by civil engineers,.. There's probably lots of software where it could play part
  - InitialLastName 8y ago
    Not to mention the phone apps that keep users so addicted they can't look away to operate heavy machinery.
    - pluto9 8y ago
      If a crane falls over because the operator was playing Candy Crush, I think that can be placed squarely in the category of "user error".
    - jnxx 8y ago
      > Not to mention the phone apps that keep users so addicted they can't look away to operate heavy machinery. Or cars while they are crossing the roads. I see this daily.
      - InitialLastName 8y ago
        Oh, good point. Do you have any statistics handy on how many people are killed and maimed by inattentive pedestrians? It would be useful for contrasting with [0]. [0]: https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/Publication/812456 https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/Publication/8124...
  - xxxdarrenxxx 8y ago
    Indeed, few days ago big portion of medicine system was down. I only needed to get basic meds, and was fixed next day, but imagine someone with heavy depression/suicidal or psychotic/schizofrenic not getting meds. It's a double down, because people with these conditions get meds to prevent damaging episodes but you can also not go "cold turkey" with certain medicines, which can result in extreme (short term) side effects/episodes, within as close as 24 - 48 hours.
flatline 8y ago
> Work to shore up the foundation of the bridge was being carried out at the time of the collapse Seems like a more plausible explanation on the face of things. Lots of highly publicized incidents in the US of fatal bridge and overpass incidents due to construction. While I assume these are overseen by an engineer, there are a lot of things out of their control that can go wrong when people are actively using the structure under maintenance.
- jandrese 8y ago
  Yes. On the radio this morning they mentioned that the bridge had been refurbished a couple of months ago. It seems like a big red flag to me.
willyt 8y ago
Or it might not have been built to specification. I know of an instance of contractors having the rebar inspected by the engineer and then moving the reinforcement to the next part in the sequence to be constructed. The engineer caught them at it because he got up very early to go sea fishing and happened to walk past the site. Incidentally this anecdote happened in Italy in the 1960's, maybe it was a widespread practice.
- Cshelton 8y ago
  This is most likely the case. It was either not built, or maintained to specification by contractors. This is an issue most of the time something fails like this. Remember, in construction, the engineers who designed it, aren't the ones who actually build it, it is contractors. Yes, there are a lot of compliance things like construction oversight and even using a 3rd party company to access the risk during the design and build itself. This sounds like a case where the maintenance was not carried out properly. Or the procedure the contractors were doing was wrong. Then a storm came and it exceeded its limits. Source: I'm not a civil engineer, but I've lived with one for some time and know a bit from conversation. Edit: I don' mean to just say, "it's the contractors" fault. It could have been higher up with budget cuts and telling the contractors, don't do this because we don't want to spend the money. This is the exact reason of having a 3rd party firm monitoring it as far as risk assessment and compliance goes. Another Edit: The civil engineer I live with said the rain or lighting should have had no effect, UNLESS it was a foundation issue. Which another commentator mentioned the foundation was undergoing maintenance at the time? Seems to be the most likely scenario.
  - jnxx 8y ago
    This happened when the municipal archive in Cologne, Germany collapsed. There was a subway construction site under the ground. Apart from problems with groundwater, iron reinforcement material for the tunnels had been stolen. The whole archive with many documents from the middle ages was reduced to rubble, and two lifes were lost. Had that happened a few days earlier, hundreds of people could have died.
chewz 8y ago
Engineers standing under the bridge during tests is still a tradition See from 16:45m https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHjC0l9nJOg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHjC0l9nJOg
- gpvos 8y ago
  Looks like a dramatization (I didn't watch all of it), and could also be propaganda (communist in this case).
nkkollaw 8y ago
> I'm not blaming anyone for this tragic accident Well, you're blaming the engineers. If you say "I'm not saying it's the engineers' fault, but engineers should remember that they're responsible for what they build", it's like blaming the engineers.
- dreen 8y ago
  > If you say "I'm not saying it's the engineers' fault, but engineers should remember that they're responsible for what they build", it's like blaming the engineers. No, it's not. I did not assign blame to anyone, that is what the court will do. You may argue I insinuated it might be the engineers fault. Well I did and it might. I'm an engineer myself and many others here are too, so it's a relevant angle for us.
StreamBright 8y ago
I have an degree in mechanical engineering and our teachers always reminded us that worst case scenario for our work is a collapsing bridge.
m0llusk 8y ago
There may be complex lessons in this. Reinforced concrete has tended to reach end of life sooner than expected which has some serious implications for structures both built and so far only proposed.
- jnxx 8y ago
  I thought the strong increase in heavy goods vehicles and traffic was the main cause for the widespread problems with bridges from the sixties?

by dreen 8y ago

ra 8y ago

Let's not jump to conclusions. The only facts we know are that the bridge collapsed and a bunch of people died. Let's not turn the conversation to "blame the engineer". Accountability and ethics are the yardstick everyone is measured by.

jnxx 8y ago
Blame, no. But going into the cause is more than warranted. Seemed like an Italian academic called it an "failure of engineering" two years ago, and another construction of the same engineer was reported to have collapsed in earlier years.

onetimemanytime 8y ago

Apparently this was built in the 1960's. Not sure if lack of maintenance is to blame or original design.

cptskippy 8y ago
The average lifespan of a bridge is about 70 years.
- gokhan 8y ago
  And requires no maintenance?
  - cptskippy 8y ago
    They definitely require routine maintenance and inspection. The Nondestructive Testing article I linked to in another comment said "significant environmental damage requiring repair typically occurs before the average bridge reaches mid-life."
- SamUK96 8y ago
  It would be very interesting to know how bridge metrics (length, load specification, etc.) relate the longevity. Of course, some bridges last for centuries, but some last for decades. This is an order of magnitude!
  - Piskvorrr 8y ago
    Spoiler: they don't, yet they do, Theseus' ship-style. For all the centuries-old bridges still in use around here, there's only a few bits and pieces left from the original, the rest has been replaced multiple times over as a part of maintenance. The difference here is probably maintainability: for a stone arch design, you can prop it up for safety, replace a few stones, and voila, like new. For a cable-stayed and/or concrete design...not really. In other words, the bridges that have "lasted for centuries" have hot-swappable parts ;)
- arethuza 8y ago
  Isn't that just a function of when most highway construction took place in Europe and the US?
  - cptskippy 8y ago
    Lifespan, not age. Most bridges where built after 1945 with a life expectancy between 70-75 years. https://www.nde-ed.org/AboutNDT/SelectedApplications/Bridge_Inspection/Bridge_Inspection.htm https://www.nde-ed.org/AboutNDT/SelectedApplications/Bridge_...
arethuza 8y ago
The Kingston Bridge in Glasow, which opened in 1970, has had to have a huge amount of work done over the years - there were problems with both the original design, the actual construction and the face it was carrying far more traffic than expected: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingston_Bridge,_Glasgow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingston_Bridge,_Glasgow
- jnxx 8y ago
  Edinburgh's Forth Road Bridge was also partially closed in 2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forth_Road_Bridge#Structural_issues https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forth_Road_Bridge#Structural_i...
lultimouomo 8y ago
Before the fall there was already a lot of talk about the constant, excessive maintenance and repairs needed by the bridge; there was discussion if the best way to go forward was a major overhaul or just demolition (of course such talk could have gone on for years or decades before anything was made). In the '80s the support structures were already reinforced and apparently it took years of filling the subsidences in the asphalt surface for it to stabilize and provide a level surface for the cars. I'm not a structural engineer and I am in no position to judge, but there definitely was the suspicion that the design of the bridge was flawed, even before today.
- jaclaz 8y ago
  >I'm not a structural engineer and I am in no position to judge, but there definitely was the suspicion that the design of the bridge was flawed, even before today. The bridge was - at the time - a bleeding edge of concrete technology, designed by the greatest expert in concrete (and pre-compression) in Italy (and probably in the world), Riccardo Morandi. He designed also the Maracaibo Bridge: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Rafael_Urdaneta_Bridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Rafael_Urdaneta_Bridge Allow me to doubt that the design had structural flaws, though it is true that at the time some aspects of long span pre-stressed concrete structures were not yet fully undestood, namely creep and shrinkage: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creep_and_shrinkage_of_concrete https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creep_and_shrinkage_of_concret... Which have definitely increased the need for maintenance, shortening the expected working life of similar structures. However from the little it can be seen from the photos that have been posted here and there, it seems like the initial point of failure was not the bridge (meaning the deck) but rather the pier, causing the two adjoining spans to collapse.
  - practice9 8y ago
    Experts do make mistakes sometimes
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
HelloNurse 8y ago
According to news reports, likely immediate causes include lightning striking one of the pillars, wind and overload. It seems quite certain that the bridge was somewhat decrepit, and some media report that consolidation work was in progress.
- jnxx 8y ago
  How can lightning cause a bridge to collapse?

24gttghh 8y ago

I don't see why one would jump to blaming the engineers from the 1960's instead of the very government bureaucracy that was responsible for funding the maintenance and oversight of the bridge for over five decades. I do wonder if it is possible the "violent downburst" in the article could have created enough force on the bridge to push it past it's load-rating though. edit: I should add that it could very well be the fault of an engineer from 50 years ago (poor design, implementation), but this just happened today and it will take a while for people to figure out what really happened, and without any other data my first inclination is to think "poor maintenance" as that is what Occam's Razor (simple: lack of maintenance is very common these days, at least in the US: prepare to be afraid of many bridges you drive over[0]) and then there's the whole downburst thing that seems vaguely plausible for now. edit2: "The U.S. has 614,387 bridges, almost four in 10 of which are 50 years or older. 56,007 — 9.1% — of the nation’s bridges were structurally deficient in 2016, and on average there were 188 million trips across a structurally deficient bridge each day. While the number of bridges that are in such poor condition as to be considered structurally deficient is decreasing, the average age of America’s bridges keeps going up and many of the nation’s bridges are approaching the end of their design life. The most recent estimate puts the nation’s backlog of bridge rehabilitation needs at $123 billion."[1] [0]https://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/americas-grades/ https://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/americas-grades/ [1]https://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/cat-item/bridges/ https://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/cat-item/bridges/

simtel20 8y ago
I don't perceive any blame in the comment you are responding to, only observations relating to the history of bridges and the responsibility that comes with it. What did you feel was assigning blame when you read it?
- wastedhours 8y ago
  Whether or not it was intended, the entire comment implies exactly that - particularly with the call to the responsibility, ethics and standards of the civil engineers. For example, if someone dies in a car crash, it's a little out of context for you to focus on the responsibility and ethics of the car designer over and above the circumstances of the crash. Usually the latter focus is for when there's concern about said ethics and responsibilities.

agumonkey 8y ago

I understand the idea but there's a threshold of diminishing returns when putting too much pressure on a position. Lots of doctors work with lawyers in mind, and will refuse tasks because of risk. Other fields have similar subpar performance due to high responsibility stress. We need to increase quality but not at the expense of people working.

acomjean 8y ago
As a former civil engineer, at least in the US you need a license from the state to stamp a design before anyone will build it, so accountability is built into the process. Its actually stressful and the pay isn't that great. I did mostly landfill design which is a little different, but slope stability and retention pond calculations were always checked and double checked. Though there is always ongoing maintenance which would be the owner responsibility.
- agumonkey 8y ago
  Sure, there's always a level of responsibility but at one point it becomes unfair and counter productive.

mabbo 8y ago

Engineers in Canada wear "iron" rings that are meant to be representative of this responsibility[0]. While not actually true, most of the time people talk about it they claim the rings were originally made from a failed beam of the first Quebec Bridge[1], improperly engineered. My wife has three pieces of jewelry- engagement ring, wedding ring, iron ring. She doesn't tell me which one she loves best. [0]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Ring https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Ring [1]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_Bridge https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_Bridge

Insanity 8y ago
That's actually a really cool tradition imo. Never heard about it until now. Thanks for that!
- PakG1 8y ago
  I had thought it was a North American thing, if not a worldwide thing. Canadian speaking. Goes to show that it's easy to assume the world is the same everywhere.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - 3rdAccount 8y ago
    American Universities with engineering departments have an Order of the Engineer ceremony and I recall some people got rings I think. It's been a few years though.
tempVariable 8y ago
As a cannuck, I can chuckle at the fact that one of our Ontario bridges lasted 42 days before it failed.[1] [1]https://globalnews.ca/news/2957484/design-improperly-tightened-bolts-named-as-factors-in-nipigon-bridge-failure/ https://globalnews.ca/news/2957484/design-improperly-tighten...

jaclaz 8y ago

Naah, this is folklore: https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/18558/were-roman-engineers-required-to-stand-beneath-their-bridges-as-they-were-tested https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/18558/were-roma... As a matter of fact if you have a legion marching on it, almost any bridge will collapse, there is a reason why, when soldiers cross bridges they are ordered to "break stride" in order to avoid possible issues with resonance of the structure. And of course, while placing architects and engineers under the bridge was "fair", the poor soldiers were innocent (and at the time among valuable resources to society) so their lives wouldn't have been deliberately risked. There are some (unconfirmed) reports about the architect standing below the bridge when the scaffolding/support was removed, however.

moviuro 8y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angers_Bridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angers_Bridge : Soldiers create resonance on a brdige, making it collapse.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- mannykannot 8y ago
  There is actually little evidence here that a resonance excited by marching soldiers caused this bridge to fall. The article says that, as usual, the soldiers were instructed to break step when crossing. The article cites a powerful thunderstorm, the effect of strong gusts being 'caught' by the massed soldiers on the bridge, and corrosion of the cables at their anchorages, as likely causes. A survivor reported that the soldiers were stumbling around as if drunk, and could barely stand. There was some speculation that the motion of the bridge caused the soldiers to respond in a coordinated way that exacerbated the swaying, but lurching from side to side is hardly marching. Contrary to what the grandparent post says, few bridges are susceptible to being brought down by marching.
baxtr 8y ago
I think I’ve read something similar about the ex-dictator in Albania, who would place engineers into bunkers they've constructed and then fire on them to see if they hold EDIT: found a source, seems to be a true story https://www.balkanride.com/2017/03/07/albanias-concrete-bunkers-defences-against-an-enemy-that-never-came/ https://www.balkanride.com/2017/03/07/albanias-concrete-bunk...

lmm 8y ago

Much software does not have lives depending on it and it would be wasteful to treat it as though it did.

Insanity 8y ago
Software in cars, planes, other types of transportation. Medical software, military programs, the software used by civil engineers,.. There's probably lots of software where it could play part
- InitialLastName 8y ago
  Not to mention the phone apps that keep users so addicted they can't look away to operate heavy machinery.
  - pluto9 8y ago
    If a crane falls over because the operator was playing Candy Crush, I think that can be placed squarely in the category of "user error".
  - jnxx 8y ago
    > Not to mention the phone apps that keep users so addicted they can't look away to operate heavy machinery. Or cars while they are crossing the roads. I see this daily.
    - InitialLastName 8y ago
      Oh, good point. Do you have any statistics handy on how many people are killed and maimed by inattentive pedestrians? It would be useful for contrasting with [0]. [0]: https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/Publication/812456 https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/Publication/8124...
- xxxdarrenxxx 8y ago
  Indeed, few days ago big portion of medicine system was down. I only needed to get basic meds, and was fixed next day, but imagine someone with heavy depression/suicidal or psychotic/schizofrenic not getting meds. It's a double down, because people with these conditions get meds to prevent damaging episodes but you can also not go "cold turkey" with certain medicines, which can result in extreme (short term) side effects/episodes, within as close as 24 - 48 hours.

flatline 8y ago

> Work to shore up the foundation of the bridge was being carried out at the time of the collapse Seems like a more plausible explanation on the face of things. Lots of highly publicized incidents in the US of fatal bridge and overpass incidents due to construction. While I assume these are overseen by an engineer, there are a lot of things out of their control that can go wrong when people are actively using the structure under maintenance.

jandrese 8y ago
Yes. On the radio this morning they mentioned that the bridge had been refurbished a couple of months ago. It seems like a big red flag to me.

willyt 8y ago

Or it might not have been built to specification. I know of an instance of contractors having the rebar inspected by the engineer and then moving the reinforcement to the next part in the sequence to be constructed. The engineer caught them at it because he got up very early to go sea fishing and happened to walk past the site. Incidentally this anecdote happened in Italy in the 1960's, maybe it was a widespread practice.

Cshelton 8y ago
This is most likely the case. It was either not built, or maintained to specification by contractors. This is an issue most of the time something fails like this. Remember, in construction, the engineers who designed it, aren't the ones who actually build it, it is contractors. Yes, there are a lot of compliance things like construction oversight and even using a 3rd party company to access the risk during the design and build itself. This sounds like a case where the maintenance was not carried out properly. Or the procedure the contractors were doing was wrong. Then a storm came and it exceeded its limits. Source: I'm not a civil engineer, but I've lived with one for some time and know a bit from conversation. Edit: I don' mean to just say, "it's the contractors" fault. It could have been higher up with budget cuts and telling the contractors, don't do this because we don't want to spend the money. This is the exact reason of having a 3rd party firm monitoring it as far as risk assessment and compliance goes. Another Edit: The civil engineer I live with said the rain or lighting should have had no effect, UNLESS it was a foundation issue. Which another commentator mentioned the foundation was undergoing maintenance at the time? Seems to be the most likely scenario.
- jnxx 8y ago
  This happened when the municipal archive in Cologne, Germany collapsed. There was a subway construction site under the ground. Apart from problems with groundwater, iron reinforcement material for the tunnels had been stolen. The whole archive with many documents from the middle ages was reduced to rubble, and two lifes were lost. Had that happened a few days earlier, hundreds of people could have died.

chewz 8y ago

Engineers standing under the bridge during tests is still a tradition See from 16:45m https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHjC0l9nJOg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHjC0l9nJOg

gpvos 8y ago
Looks like a dramatization (I didn't watch all of it), and could also be propaganda (communist in this case).

nkkollaw 8y ago

> I'm not blaming anyone for this tragic accident Well, you're blaming the engineers. If you say "I'm not saying it's the engineers' fault, but engineers should remember that they're responsible for what they build", it's like blaming the engineers.

dreen 8y ago
> If you say "I'm not saying it's the engineers' fault, but engineers should remember that they're responsible for what they build", it's like blaming the engineers. No, it's not. I did not assign blame to anyone, that is what the court will do. You may argue I insinuated it might be the engineers fault. Well I did and it might. I'm an engineer myself and many others here are too, so it's a relevant angle for us.

StreamBright 8y ago

I have an degree in mechanical engineering and our teachers always reminded us that worst case scenario for our work is a collapsing bridge.

m0llusk 8y ago

There may be complex lessons in this. Reinforced concrete has tended to reach end of life sooner than expected which has some serious implications for structures both built and so far only proposed.

jnxx 8y ago
I thought the strong increase in heavy goods vehicles and traffic was the main cause for the widespread problems with bridges from the sixties?