4 ms·

Funny enough, I submitted one of those to all of the biggest cities in each state for a list of their databases and the columns/tables within each. Pretty much

Funny enough, I submitted one of those to all of the biggest cities in each state for a list of their databases and the columns/tables within each. Pretty much universal rejection. The ones that didn't send me a rejection letter all told me that the cost would be somewhere between $400 and $2,000 to complete the work. While it's nice, and I've spent similar on requests before, it's not something I'm exactly interested in doing repeatedly, since this is all coming from my personal savings. That said... I'm still fighting that fight in Chicago. Chicago used to post a "data dictionary" of 111 of their databases, which had a list of the tables and columns. Problem is... it isn't running anymore since it's no longer being funded by a $300k (!) grant. So, I'm working on requesting a database dump of that. Last request for it was rejected saying that Chicago's Department of Innovation and Technology (DoIT) doesn't mave any of those records. I'm thinking it's because I requested a "copy" of the database dump, rather than just explicitly asking for the data within it. That opens up a pretty nifty door to work with for future requests ;).

gok 8y ago
Can we do crowdfunding to get that started again?
- bpchaps 8y ago
  Yep - I have two ways open now: A donation to my non-profit, Free Our Info, NFP - which is the company I'm submitting requests for DBs' info through (and many other requests): https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_s-xclick&hosted_button_id=8LLQBQBPS72BJ https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_s-xclick&hosted_b... The other's through Muckrock, for specific requests: https://www.muckrock.com/project/tables-and-columns-from-government-owned-databases-308/ https://www.muckrock.com/project/tables-and-columns-from-gov... (I'll add more requests to this list tomorrow)
pbhjpbhj 8y ago
I'm reasonably sure that in UK FOIA requests have to be handled at cost? It's that true in Chicago. Mind you the company responsible probably said "the database schema will cost $2k to put in a PDF".
- chrismeller 8y ago
  It varies by state in the US (what doesn't?), but most states do have a clause in their FOIA law that says something along those lines as well. It may be completely ambiguous ("at cost", fees must be "reasonable", etc.) or it can be more specific ("may not exceed the hourly salary of the lowest paid employee who can do the work", etc.). Of course the former is pretty worthless, especially if the state doesn't outline any formal appeals process - you'd have to actually sue them for the records, which is rarely going to end up being cheaper. It also doesn't mean that the actual cost couldn't end up being insane. If no one has access to perform that particular query or knows how to get that data it could involve requesting a custom report from whomever developed and/or maintains the system. No one is reasonably going to pay IBM's hourly rate to write a report for them...
  - pc86 8y ago
    And don't forget if their DBA team is all consultants, "at cost" for the state just included that DBA's time, putting together the scope of work for the client, writing the proposal, management approval, etc. Generating a PDF of all tables and all columns in a presentation-level format could definitely cost the state $2k. I work for a company that has a lot of state consultants (>50% of the workforce) and our salaries are typically 2-2.5x our state counterparts, and most items of work that would take more than an hour or two will require at least one level of management approval on both sides.
_michael 8y ago
Do you have any other chicago-related datasets available?

gok 8y ago

Can we do crowdfunding to get that started again?

bpchaps 8y ago
Yep - I have two ways open now: A donation to my non-profit, Free Our Info, NFP - which is the company I'm submitting requests for DBs' info through (and many other requests): https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_s-xclick&hosted_button_id=8LLQBQBPS72BJ https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_s-xclick&hosted_b... The other's through Muckrock, for specific requests: https://www.muckrock.com/project/tables-and-columns-from-government-owned-databases-308/ https://www.muckrock.com/project/tables-and-columns-from-gov... (I'll add more requests to this list tomorrow)

pbhjpbhj 8y ago

I'm reasonably sure that in UK FOIA requests have to be handled at cost? It's that true in Chicago. Mind you the company responsible probably said "the database schema will cost $2k to put in a PDF".

chrismeller 8y ago
It varies by state in the US (what doesn't?), but most states do have a clause in their FOIA law that says something along those lines as well. It may be completely ambiguous ("at cost", fees must be "reasonable", etc.) or it can be more specific ("may not exceed the hourly salary of the lowest paid employee who can do the work", etc.). Of course the former is pretty worthless, especially if the state doesn't outline any formal appeals process - you'd have to actually sue them for the records, which is rarely going to end up being cheaper. It also doesn't mean that the actual cost couldn't end up being insane. If no one has access to perform that particular query or knows how to get that data it could involve requesting a custom report from whomever developed and/or maintains the system. No one is reasonably going to pay IBM's hourly rate to write a report for them...
- pc86 8y ago
  And don't forget if their DBA team is all consultants, "at cost" for the state just included that DBA's time, putting together the scope of work for the client, writing the proposal, management approval, etc. Generating a PDF of all tables and all columns in a presentation-level format could definitely cost the state $2k. I work for a company that has a lot of state consultants (>50% of the workforce) and our salaries are typically 2-2.5x our state counterparts, and most items of work that would take more than an hour or two will require at least one level of management approval on both sides.

_michael 8y ago

Do you have any other chicago-related datasets available?