11 ms·

This is awesome. Question though: how is producing license plate data like this not a disallowed privacy invasion? It seems like you could totally track who's p

This is awesome. Question though: how is producing license plate data like this not a disallowed privacy invasion? It seems like you could totally track who's parking where and potentially do nasty stuff, if you know (say) someone well-off whom you don't like and who doesn't seem to mind getting tickets on a regular basis.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
rlpb 8y ago
Criminal proceedings are usually public in most countries. Where do parking tickets fall? Even if not technically criminal, some might, for the same underlying reasons, consider it acceptable for "someone well-off whom you don't like and who doesn't seem to mind getting tickets on a regular basis" to have this illegal behavior on the public record. "Don't want your name tarnished? Don't park illegally." [Edit: on the other hand, if the ticket is unfair (eg. confusing signage as in this example), then you have a valid point; I just wanted to point out the other side of the coin]
- ghaff 8y ago
  What you say is true. It's also the case that there's a lot of information that is nominally public--often for very defensible reasons--which historically took significant effort to get at and, even then, only in a very limited and manual way. Today, a lot of that information is at least a lot more accessible to everyone (though in this case it still took a lot of work) and, furthermore, it can be mashed up with other public or semi-public data. I'm pretty sure this is something we'll be collectively be coming to terms with for a long time.
  - snuxoll 8y ago
    Voter registration records being a perfect example - anyone can look up my address because the state makes it incredibly easy to pop my name into a website and there it is.
    - ghaff 8y ago
      Of course, historically you could look up the address for most people through the white pages. But that doesn't change the basic point. If you were to ask if you should be able to look up anyone's physical address by typing their name into a web page, I suspect many people would say no. Yet, here we are. (I also suspect that many would be really shocked at the amount of info available about them from "deep web" searches much less via a $20 online background check.
- mehrdadn 8y ago
  I was asking about the legality, not the morality. If it's not technically criminal then that's all that matters. Also, this is completely missing the point here: > Don't want your name tarnished? Don't park illegally. It's not about reputation, it's about privacy -- and safety.
  - mikekchar 8y ago
    Don't know about where you are, but in Ontario Canada (the only place I've gotten in enough trouble to care about the difference ;-) ), there is a criminal code and the highway traffic act. There are illegal things that you can do in your car that may be in either or both areas. "Criminal" means in the criminal code, but both are illegal. I think that you don't have a right to privacy for either because it obfuscates the application of the law. Indeed, the Japanese government can query the Ontario government to get a list of transgressions that you had while driving a car in Ontario (I know this because they did so when I converted my driver's license to a Japanese one -- and they didn't need my consent). I think OP's use of the term "criminal" is a bit loose, but I would be surprised if you have any right to privacy for a a fine levied due to a legal infraction. Whether or not you should have a right to privacy is a completely different conversation... Aside: It was important to me because many years ago I inadvertently drove while suspended. I had an unpaid ticket that I had forgotten about and my license was suspended. The suspension got lost in the mail (first a postal strike and then the delivery person put my mail in the wrong "super box" -- I eventually got it months later). When I was first getting my visa for Japan, I needed to find out if this was a criminal offence or a highway traffic act offence.
  - refoundglory 8y ago
    In WA at least all traffic offenses are public record. You can go search court databases by either name or license plate to get the full details of any tickets and charges in that system.
- chapium 8y ago
  Parking tickets aren't criminal offenses.
ecnahc515 8y ago
The TL;DR is: "any criminal records is public information". Fundamentally, even if it's very minor, it's public information until expunged, cleared, or sealed. I think most people are generally fine with this, it's only really a problem if you consistently are committing offenses.
- dannyw 8y ago
  I wouldn't be that generous. You park 15 mins longer than permitted once outside your workplace, and now your violent ex knows where you now work.
  - cabaalis 8y ago
    Maybe. But I think the benefit to society of publicly knowing violations outweighs this potential abuse. Also, it would be a problem to allow government to secretly prosecute, even for very minor offenses.
    - macintux 8y ago
      I'm very skeptical about drawing a line from "not sharing license plate numbers tied to address of offense when it comes to traffic fines" to "secretly prosecute".
  - oh_sigh 8y ago
    Your violent ex would know your license plate number, but not know where you work?
    - macintux 8y ago
      I'd wager most people switch jobs more often than they change license plate numbers.
- mehrdadn 8y ago
  This is not criminal though?
detaro 8y ago
In the US there is an entire industry that scans license plates on public streets and sells the data. Basically no privacy in public. (random example: https://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2015/01/private_companies_know_where_youve_been_thanks_to_license_plate_cameras.html https://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2015/01/private_comp... )
- mehrdadn 8y ago
  I forgot about this, but at the same time that doesn't imply it's legal for a government agency to just give it away. There are obviously industries that gather up all your personal information from address and DoB to SSN but that doesn't mean a government agency can just give it out to a random nobody.
  - count 8y ago
    The difference in rational is pretty simple: A plate identifies a vehicle. A vehicle is not a person. Govt can't give out personally identifiable information.
    - vageli 8y ago
      But a plate identifies a vehicle _and_ its owner—not just a vehicle.
      - toomuchtodo 8y ago
        A vehicle’s owner is public information in the US. Credit Karma knows the vehicles I own based on DMV records, and recommends me insurance accordingly.
        rblatz 8y ago
        And they know that because your PII (name, address, social) is mapped to a profile, and that profile is also mapped to license plates and Vins. So you can use one to look up the other info in either direction.
bpchaps 8y ago
Thanks! I thought so to until recently and was honestly kind of surprised they actually gave it to me. They rejected giving license plate info at first, but they've given it out in other, similar, FOIA requests. Specifically in FOIA's statute, it says: (c-5) "Private information" means unique identifiers, including a person's social security number, driver's license number, employee identification number, biometric identifiers, personal financial information, passwords or other access codes, medical records, home or personal telephone numbers, and personal email addresses. Private information also includes home address and personal license plates, *except as otherwise provided by law or when compiled without possibility of attribution to any person.* In other words - if the dataset itself doesn't have identifying information, then it's not considered private. That said, I've played around with re-identification using this dataset as a POC.. and then deleted the code, because yeah - it's scary.
- mehrdadn 8y ago
  That is scary, thanks for sharing. And for those here who don't seem to be worried about the safety aspect, note that this means any corporation with a lot of your personal info (insurance, Equifax, etc.) could just submit a FOIA request to get the license plate number of anyone in Illinois (and likely other states) who's parked anywhere illegally, whether intentionally or accidentally... and then strike a deal to gather license plate scanning data to track where you go and what you do. Heck, I wonder if this sort of thing is already happening and we just don't know about it.
  - kasey_junk 8y ago
    I think, because he glossed over it in the post, that you are underestimating how much work Matt does to get the data & how much the governments he works with try to hinder & redact it. In some cases that is a very good thing. In other cases it’s just them trying to obfuscate and block transparency.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
ortuna 8y ago
In a lot of states you used to be able to get the address of a license plate with $5 in admin fees. Not sure if that is still allowed.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

rlpb 8y ago

Criminal proceedings are usually public in most countries. Where do parking tickets fall? Even if not technically criminal, some might, for the same underlying reasons, consider it acceptable for "someone well-off whom you don't like and who doesn't seem to mind getting tickets on a regular basis" to have this illegal behavior on the public record. "Don't want your name tarnished? Don't park illegally." [Edit: on the other hand, if the ticket is unfair (eg. confusing signage as in this example), then you have a valid point; I just wanted to point out the other side of the coin]

ghaff 8y ago
What you say is true. It's also the case that there's a lot of information that is nominally public--often for very defensible reasons--which historically took significant effort to get at and, even then, only in a very limited and manual way. Today, a lot of that information is at least a lot more accessible to everyone (though in this case it still took a lot of work) and, furthermore, it can be mashed up with other public or semi-public data. I'm pretty sure this is something we'll be collectively be coming to terms with for a long time.
- snuxoll 8y ago
  Voter registration records being a perfect example - anyone can look up my address because the state makes it incredibly easy to pop my name into a website and there it is.
  - ghaff 8y ago
    Of course, historically you could look up the address for most people through the white pages. But that doesn't change the basic point. If you were to ask if you should be able to look up anyone's physical address by typing their name into a web page, I suspect many people would say no. Yet, here we are. (I also suspect that many would be really shocked at the amount of info available about them from "deep web" searches much less via a $20 online background check.
mehrdadn 8y ago
I was asking about the legality, not the morality. If it's not technically criminal then that's all that matters. Also, this is completely missing the point here: > Don't want your name tarnished? Don't park illegally. It's not about reputation, it's about privacy -- and safety.
- mikekchar 8y ago
  Don't know about where you are, but in Ontario Canada (the only place I've gotten in enough trouble to care about the difference ;-) ), there is a criminal code and the highway traffic act. There are illegal things that you can do in your car that may be in either or both areas. "Criminal" means in the criminal code, but both are illegal. I think that you don't have a right to privacy for either because it obfuscates the application of the law. Indeed, the Japanese government can query the Ontario government to get a list of transgressions that you had while driving a car in Ontario (I know this because they did so when I converted my driver's license to a Japanese one -- and they didn't need my consent). I think OP's use of the term "criminal" is a bit loose, but I would be surprised if you have any right to privacy for a a fine levied due to a legal infraction. Whether or not you should have a right to privacy is a completely different conversation... Aside: It was important to me because many years ago I inadvertently drove while suspended. I had an unpaid ticket that I had forgotten about and my license was suspended. The suspension got lost in the mail (first a postal strike and then the delivery person put my mail in the wrong "super box" -- I eventually got it months later). When I was first getting my visa for Japan, I needed to find out if this was a criminal offence or a highway traffic act offence.
- refoundglory 8y ago
  In WA at least all traffic offenses are public record. You can go search court databases by either name or license plate to get the full details of any tickets and charges in that system.
chapium 8y ago
Parking tickets aren't criminal offenses.

ecnahc515 8y ago

The TL;DR is: "any criminal records is public information". Fundamentally, even if it's very minor, it's public information until expunged, cleared, or sealed. I think most people are generally fine with this, it's only really a problem if you consistently are committing offenses.

dannyw 8y ago
I wouldn't be that generous. You park 15 mins longer than permitted once outside your workplace, and now your violent ex knows where you now work.
- cabaalis 8y ago
  Maybe. But I think the benefit to society of publicly knowing violations outweighs this potential abuse. Also, it would be a problem to allow government to secretly prosecute, even for very minor offenses.
  - macintux 8y ago
    I'm very skeptical about drawing a line from "not sharing license plate numbers tied to address of offense when it comes to traffic fines" to "secretly prosecute".
- oh_sigh 8y ago
  Your violent ex would know your license plate number, but not know where you work?
  - macintux 8y ago
    I'd wager most people switch jobs more often than they change license plate numbers.
mehrdadn 8y ago
This is not criminal though?

detaro 8y ago

In the US there is an entire industry that scans license plates on public streets and sells the data. Basically no privacy in public. (random example: https://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2015/01/private_companies_know_where_youve_been_thanks_to_license_plate_cameras.html https://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2015/01/private_comp... )

mehrdadn 8y ago
I forgot about this, but at the same time that doesn't imply it's legal for a government agency to just give it away. There are obviously industries that gather up all your personal information from address and DoB to SSN but that doesn't mean a government agency can just give it out to a random nobody.
- count 8y ago
  The difference in rational is pretty simple: A plate identifies a vehicle. A vehicle is not a person. Govt can't give out personally identifiable information.
  - vageli 8y ago
    But a plate identifies a vehicle _and_ its owner—not just a vehicle.
    - toomuchtodo 8y ago
      A vehicle’s owner is public information in the US. Credit Karma knows the vehicles I own based on DMV records, and recommends me insurance accordingly.
      - rblatz 8y ago
        And they know that because your PII (name, address, social) is mapped to a profile, and that profile is also mapped to license plates and Vins. So you can use one to look up the other info in either direction.

bpchaps 8y ago

Thanks! I thought so to until recently and was honestly kind of surprised they actually gave it to me. They rejected giving license plate info at first, but they've given it out in other, similar, FOIA requests. Specifically in FOIA's statute, it says: (c-5) "Private information" means unique identifiers, including a person's social security number, driver's license number, employee identification number, biometric identifiers, personal financial information, passwords or other access codes, medical records, home or personal telephone numbers, and personal email addresses. Private information also includes home address and personal license plates, *except as otherwise provided by law or when compiled without possibility of attribution to any person.* In other words - if the dataset itself doesn't have identifying information, then it's not considered private. That said, I've played around with re-identification using this dataset as a POC.. and then deleted the code, because yeah - it's scary.

mehrdadn 8y ago
That is scary, thanks for sharing. And for those here who don't seem to be worried about the safety aspect, note that this means any corporation with a lot of your personal info (insurance, Equifax, etc.) could just submit a FOIA request to get the license plate number of anyone in Illinois (and likely other states) who's parked anywhere illegally, whether intentionally or accidentally... and then strike a deal to gather license plate scanning data to track where you go and what you do. Heck, I wonder if this sort of thing is already happening and we just don't know about it.
- kasey_junk 8y ago
  I think, because he glossed over it in the post, that you are underestimating how much work Matt does to get the data & how much the governments he works with try to hinder & redact it. In some cases that is a very good thing. In other cases it’s just them trying to obfuscate and block transparency.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]

ortuna 8y ago

In a lot of states you used to be able to get the address of a license plate with $5 in admin fees. Not sure if that is still allowed.