5 ms·

I have paid taxes in Sweden and Spain. In both countries, I get a preliminary tax form with all my data. If I don't want to change anything I just need to go on

by kartan 8y ago

I have paid taxes in Sweden and Spain. In both countries, I get a preliminary tax form with all my data. If I don't want to change anything I just need to go online. Click Accept. And pay with my credit card the difference between what my employer pays to the government monthly and the total, around 100$. It is very efficient. I have the feeling that apart from lobbying USA loves to hate taxes. To make paying taxes overly-complicated adds to that feeling. When you only need to pay 100$ at the end of the year after one or two clicks (or you can get a paper copy mailed to your home and pay at the bank) makes it less painful.

cortesoft 8y ago
This is certainly true. In particular, Americans for Tax Reform (the group founded by Grover Norquist) lobbies against any attempt at making paying taxes easier for this reason. Their argument is that people should be constantly aware of how much they are paying in taxes, and making it too easy would hinder this. These groups, combined with tax preparation companies, prevent any meaningful attempt to make paying taxes easier.
- sgustard 8y ago
  Most people have tax withheld from their paycheck then are delighted to receive a refund the next year. I don't think that provides any meaningful awareness of how much they are really paying, any more than if the process were entirely automatic.
  - eftychis 8y ago
    Irrational feeling people have with tax refunds. If you receive a high refund you should be crying. That is money you lost. Nobody is giving you free money. With a really pessimistic 5% return, you ended up paying $5 more per $100 of refund...
    - recursive 8y ago
      That's assuming you had all the money at the beginning of the year.
      - SquirrelOnFire 8y ago
        And that you had the discipline not to spend it.
- ryandrake 8y ago
  > Their argument is that people should be constantly aware of how much they are paying in taxes, and making it too easy would hinder this. Which is so stupid because so many people have no idea at all what they pay in taxes because of employer withholding. I knew more than one coworker who thought they didnt pay taxes because they get a check back at the end of the year. They had no idea how withholding worked until I explained it to them. Note that these were otherwise smart adults (software engineers).
  - mikeash 8y ago
    A lot of these people also argue against withholding for this reason. If people had to write a check every year (or every quarter, month, whatever) then, the argument goes, people would be outraged at how much they pay and there would be enormous pressure on Congress to cut taxes.
    - millstone 8y ago
      This cuts the opposite way. The practice of withholding and the overcomplicated code leads Americans to greatly over-estimate how much they pay in taxes. Increasing tax transparency would lead to surprise at how little we actually pay in taxes. http://time.com/money/5224749/how-much-americans-pay-taxes-irs/ http://time.com/money/5224749/how-much-americans-pay-taxes-i...
  - doktrin 8y ago
    > Which is so stupid because so many people have no idea at all what they pay in taxes because of employer withholding. Which makes me think that it's not so much about people being informed as people being annoyed. I don't dread tax season because of what I owe, I dread it because of all the nonsense hoop jumping I know I have to go through on pain of massive fines and audit nightmares. I'd be willing to be that a good many folks would shrug at their tax bill if it was laid out in simple terms with a sane user interface. Nobody can possibly shrug at the status quo form dance that they're subjected to year after year. It's practically guaranteed to cause discomfort and engender disdain.
- pm90 8y ago
  > Lobbies against any attempt at making paying taxes easier for this reason. Their argument is that people should be constantly aware of how much they are paying in taxes, and making it too easy would hinder this. Can we please stop taking their claims at face value? It is a blatant attempt to destroy the power of the US Federal Government, perhaps the last entity that stands in the way of absolute corporate domination. Norquist is a pawn in this play, just like all the other PAC's, super PAC's, institutions doing "economic research" etc. The GOP has been consumed by these groups, who have been very clever to "explain" how tax cuts and reducing Government and social security benefits are great, even to those who need them the most. They are a cancer in American society and it still baffles me that these groups are now considered mainstream.
- ApolloFortyNine 8y ago
  I agree to a point. It's common for Europeans to forget about VAT since it's included in the final price consumers see, for example. You often see income tax comparisons between the US and European countries, when in reality if you actually spend your money you are paying a 20+% tax. With our tax system, you can see clear as day how much money you are losing out on for social security, medicare, and standard income tax.
  - Thiez 8y ago
    The VAT is still specified on the receipt. So you can see it just as clearly, and the mental arithmetic to calculate whan you have to pay is much simpler.
- anoncoward111 8y ago
  Actually I worked for Americans for Tax Reform and I can assure you that all they care about is preventing corporations from paying additional taxes. Anything that is from them about individual taxes is just marketing to get you to vote Republican. They quite literally say that they want to "broaden the base of taxpayers", i.e, the individual pays more.
ljm 8y ago
I was slightly bothered after moving to Spain from the UK because I had to submit the IRPF and similar. You never have to think of such a thing in the UK unless you see the wrong code on your payslip, and that is always in order to get a refund. People of the US won't trust a damn thing the government does, probably for pretty good reason, and the whole country suffers for it. IRS can adequately track and report your taxes, even refunding them if they're too high? HELL NO, gotta blow most of that potential refund on a tax adviser to prove that I could get refunded! HMRC can adequately track and report your taxes? Actually, most of the time yes. No need to file unless it's a more complicated setup.
- Someguywhatever 8y ago
  >People of the US won't trust a damn thing the government does, probably for pretty good reason, and the whole country suffers for it. Lobbying by companies like Turbotax (Intuit) and others is largely behind this. I think many Americans would be ok with just paying a bill the government sends them which is based on information that they know the government already has.
JackFr 8y ago
> I have the feeling that apart from lobbying USA loves to hate taxes. Of course we do! Opposition to taxes is LITERALLY the creation myth of the United States. "No taxation without representation!" -- and we certainly weren't looking for representation.

by kartan 8y ago

cortesoft 8y ago

This is certainly true. In particular, Americans for Tax Reform (the group founded by Grover Norquist) lobbies against any attempt at making paying taxes easier for this reason. Their argument is that people should be constantly aware of how much they are paying in taxes, and making it too easy would hinder this. These groups, combined with tax preparation companies, prevent any meaningful attempt to make paying taxes easier.

sgustard 8y ago
Most people have tax withheld from their paycheck then are delighted to receive a refund the next year. I don't think that provides any meaningful awareness of how much they are really paying, any more than if the process were entirely automatic.
- eftychis 8y ago
  Irrational feeling people have with tax refunds. If you receive a high refund you should be crying. That is money you lost. Nobody is giving you free money. With a really pessimistic 5% return, you ended up paying $5 more per $100 of refund...
  - recursive 8y ago
    That's assuming you had all the money at the beginning of the year.
    - SquirrelOnFire 8y ago
      And that you had the discipline not to spend it.
ryandrake 8y ago
> Their argument is that people should be constantly aware of how much they are paying in taxes, and making it too easy would hinder this. Which is so stupid because so many people have no idea at all what they pay in taxes because of employer withholding. I knew more than one coworker who thought they didnt pay taxes because they get a check back at the end of the year. They had no idea how withholding worked until I explained it to them. Note that these were otherwise smart adults (software engineers).
- mikeash 8y ago
  A lot of these people also argue against withholding for this reason. If people had to write a check every year (or every quarter, month, whatever) then, the argument goes, people would be outraged at how much they pay and there would be enormous pressure on Congress to cut taxes.
  - millstone 8y ago
    This cuts the opposite way. The practice of withholding and the overcomplicated code leads Americans to greatly over-estimate how much they pay in taxes. Increasing tax transparency would lead to surprise at how little we actually pay in taxes. http://time.com/money/5224749/how-much-americans-pay-taxes-irs/ http://time.com/money/5224749/how-much-americans-pay-taxes-i...
- doktrin 8y ago
  > Which is so stupid because so many people have no idea at all what they pay in taxes because of employer withholding. Which makes me think that it's not so much about people being informed as people being annoyed. I don't dread tax season because of what I owe, I dread it because of all the nonsense hoop jumping I know I have to go through on pain of massive fines and audit nightmares. I'd be willing to be that a good many folks would shrug at their tax bill if it was laid out in simple terms with a sane user interface. Nobody can possibly shrug at the status quo form dance that they're subjected to year after year. It's practically guaranteed to cause discomfort and engender disdain.
pm90 8y ago
> Lobbies against any attempt at making paying taxes easier for this reason. Their argument is that people should be constantly aware of how much they are paying in taxes, and making it too easy would hinder this. Can we please stop taking their claims at face value? It is a blatant attempt to destroy the power of the US Federal Government, perhaps the last entity that stands in the way of absolute corporate domination. Norquist is a pawn in this play, just like all the other PAC's, super PAC's, institutions doing "economic research" etc. The GOP has been consumed by these groups, who have been very clever to "explain" how tax cuts and reducing Government and social security benefits are great, even to those who need them the most. They are a cancer in American society and it still baffles me that these groups are now considered mainstream.
ApolloFortyNine 8y ago
I agree to a point. It's common for Europeans to forget about VAT since it's included in the final price consumers see, for example. You often see income tax comparisons between the US and European countries, when in reality if you actually spend your money you are paying a 20+% tax. With our tax system, you can see clear as day how much money you are losing out on for social security, medicare, and standard income tax.
- Thiez 8y ago
  The VAT is still specified on the receipt. So you can see it just as clearly, and the mental arithmetic to calculate whan you have to pay is much simpler.
anoncoward111 8y ago
Actually I worked for Americans for Tax Reform and I can assure you that all they care about is preventing corporations from paying additional taxes. Anything that is from them about individual taxes is just marketing to get you to vote Republican. They quite literally say that they want to "broaden the base of taxpayers", i.e, the individual pays more.

ljm 8y ago

I was slightly bothered after moving to Spain from the UK because I had to submit the IRPF and similar. You never have to think of such a thing in the UK unless you see the wrong code on your payslip, and that is always in order to get a refund. People of the US won't trust a damn thing the government does, probably for pretty good reason, and the whole country suffers for it. IRS can adequately track and report your taxes, even refunding them if they're too high? HELL NO, gotta blow most of that potential refund on a tax adviser to prove that I could get refunded! HMRC can adequately track and report your taxes? Actually, most of the time yes. No need to file unless it's a more complicated setup.

Someguywhatever 8y ago
>People of the US won't trust a damn thing the government does, probably for pretty good reason, and the whole country suffers for it. Lobbying by companies like Turbotax (Intuit) and others is largely behind this. I think many Americans would be ok with just paying a bill the government sends them which is based on information that they know the government already has.

JackFr 8y ago

> I have the feeling that apart from lobbying USA loves to hate taxes. Of course we do! Opposition to taxes is LITERALLY the creation myth of the United States. "No taxation without representation!" -- and we certainly weren't looking for representation.