16 ms·

Google tracks your movements, like it or not

515 points by tombrossman 8y ago

MrEfficiency 8y ago
Everyone remembers decades ago, the fear of having a first/last name online. That turned out to be significantly less dangerous than we anticipated. What if our movements are similar? Everyone knows where you work and where your home. Whatever the case, the next few years will decide if we value privacy or endless features.
- akerro 8y ago
  I dont care what your fullname is, but mind telling me what your address is and when you're leaving home with that 50' plasma TV for 2 weeks holiday?
  - paulie_a 8y ago
    A tv that has basically zero resale value?
- gumby 8y ago
  > Whatever the case, the next few years will decide if we value privacy or endless features. Or if it's worth making cool new features that preserve the user's privacy. I don't see that there is an inherent tradeoff.
  - bmomb 8y ago
    I think that cool features that protects user privacy is hard to come by because this is not the type of feature that brings money. Protecting the user is (in most of the cases) fighting ads.
- onion2k 8y ago
  That turned out to be significantly less dangerous than we anticipated. ...where "we" is limited to people in Western democracies with governments that don't oppress their citizens. People in countries that have less enlightened governments have often had a pretty bad time after posting things online in ways that security services have been able to monitor, track, and use as the basis for imprisonment and worse. I don't believe that Google is passing data about people to oppressive regimes, but there are damn good reasons why people think privacy is important for all internet users.
  - jmisavage 8y ago
    The fact Google is making a search engine specific to China to meet their requirements for censorship opens the door for that very specific thing. First it's hiding results that the government doesn't want seen. Next it will be reporting who's looking for censored topics. It's a slippery slope.
- wolco 8y ago
  Real names has led to people being fired people being fired. The fear around social media and guarding your profile is to prevent future employers, family and people you know in life from finding out things you do not wish to share. Being tracked with a real name attached creates these privacy issues. The advertisers demanded but it lessens the experience ij many ways.
- hiccuphippo 8y ago
  Has having your SSN online become less dangerous since the Equifax leak?
  - ocdtrekkie 8y ago
    Not really. I expected the Equifax leak to lead to a widespread move away from SSN being effectively your password for signing up for new financial accounts, but nothing has really changed as far as I'm aware.
- sophistication 8y ago
  A killer drone would have a much easier time eliminating someone knowing their location compared to just knowing their name.
  - pasta 8y ago
    For people who think this is BS: better not use Google products in Pakistan for example.
- macintux 8y ago
  This sounds like a male perspective. Women have a very different view on how safe they are when anyone can find out who they are and where they live.
  - snvzz 8y ago
    What a sexist view.
    - macintux 8y ago
      I thought it was indisputable that women are stalked vastly more frequently than men, harassed more often online, and typically less comfortable being alone in dangerous areas.
      - snvzz 8y ago
        Lack of scepticism, if anything.
- YouKnowBetter 8y ago
  Same story for mobile service providers. Cellphone companies have known your "exact" location for the last 20 years. There is a lot less oversight or scruples in the engineering teams of providers (that I have worked at) then I have seen at Google and the likes. Nobody (but a couple of spies, smart crooks & prewarned govermental types) take any measures to hide from them, or complain about this information being available. Luckily for us, telecom companies are not that smart|agressive when it comes to finding new revenue streams. Be it based on your (phone's) location or their excellent position to offer verified identity services, since they have a payment relation with all their customers.
  - acct1771 8y ago
    Bullshit. They're great at it. They just don't tell you/"you" (general populace) don't bother to inform yourself about it. See: Verizon buying up ad networks, CarrierIQ, etc
- CaptSpify 8y ago
  > That turned out to be significantly less dangerous than we anticipated. Tell that to people who have been doxxed. Or people who have had their stalkers find them. Or people who have been arrested by oppressive governments... The list goes on
ivan_ah 8y ago
Link to the "Web & App Activity" control panel: https://myaccount.google.com/activitycontrols/search?pli=1 https://myaccount.google.com/activitycontrols/search?pli=1
- pasta 8y ago
  According to the article this page doesn't include everything they track.
- snarkyturtle 8y ago
  They still track you with Location Services off, according to this map: https://interactives.ap.org/google-location-tracking/ https://interactives.ap.org/google-location-tracking/
  - jsn 8y ago
    No, according to this map they track you with Location History off (it says so right in the title, actually), not with Location Services off.
- pacala 8y ago
  The article claims otherwise. > Google says that will prevent the company from remembering where you’ve been. Google’s support page on the subject states: “You can turn off Location History at any time. With Location History off, the places you go are no longer stored.” > That isn’t true. Even with Location History paused, some Google apps automatically store time-stamped location data without asking. > For example, Google stores a snapshot of where you are when you merely open its Maps app. Automatic daily weather updates on Android phones pinpoint roughly where you are. And some searches that have nothing to do with location, like “chocolate chip cookies,” or “kids science kits,” pinpoint your precise latitude and longitude — accurate to the square foot — and save it to your Google account.
  - HillaryBriss 8y ago
    > accurate to the square foot Not sure where they're getting this. Which android phones are recording location with that level of accuracy? My understanding is that, even with the latest Round Trip Time accuracy improvements accessible with Android Pie and 802.11mc WiFi, the best case scenario is one-meter accuracy: "RTT measures the round-trip time between two Wi-Fi devices so both your mobile phone and your access points need to support the 802.11mc protocol. As you saw, RTT can give you very fine location estimates down to one-meter accuracy" http://gpsworld.com/how-to-achieve-1-meter-accuracy-in-android/ http://gpsworld.com/how-to-achieve-1-meter-accuracy-in-andro...
pasta 8y ago
What is driving me away from Google's Android is that they keep asking me to turn stuff on I don't want to turn on. I know that "when it's free I am the product" but the problem is that this is not very obvious when you buy a device. My $100,- Motorola Moto C plus is great but I can't remove the Google search box from my home screen for example. What would be great is that producers would tell how much I am the product because Google sponsored X, Y and Z to make the phone cheaper. Then a consumer can make the choice to buy a more expensive one or just accept that "you are the product".
- soziawa 8y ago
  You can return it if it doesn't match what was advertised.
- rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
  >My $100,- Motorola Moto C plus is great but I can't remove the Google search box from my home screen for example. It's quite annoying and show how far Google goes to shove their data collection tools down our throats. I recommend this free and independent launcher: https://f-droid.org/en/packages/ch.deletescape.lawnchair.plah/ https://f-droid.org/en/packages/ch.deletescape.lawnchair.pla...
- izacus 8y ago
  While your complaint is valid, replacing the launcher on your phone will remove the Google bar. (Nova launcher is very popular alternative to the built in ones and gives you quite a few options for customisation.) The constant nagging to enable Location History is the worst though.
  - ams6110 8y ago
    Strange, I keep location services off all the time unless I am actively using Maps navigation. Location history is off also. I don't receive "nags" excepting when I start Maps, I get a request to turn on location services.
- dmm 8y ago
  > I can't remove the Google search box from my home screen for example. You can remove it if you disable "Google Play Services" in Settings -> Apps. Of course if you do then can't use the android store or most apps. I use the alternative fdroid repository and it works fine.
macintux 8y ago
The article appears to describe only Google’s controls over your account, ignoring the iOS restrictions that allow iPhone and iPad users to prevent Google from seeing the data in the first place. Unfortunate that they don’t make that clear.
- izacus 8y ago
  And exact same thing is true for Android as well - even Google apps won't get location data if you disable the permission or toggle.
  - rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
    So, you're saying one can allow some apps to have access to location data *andµ not allow Google from accessing it? Wow. Please tell me how to that. I've been trying to do that for yeaaaars (to no avail). I have a Moto G5 with Android 7.1. Please tell me.
    - izacus 8y ago
      Depends on what do you mean by "not allowing Google from accessing it"? Setting location mode to GPS only and disabling Location permissions / Location History for Google apps in your app settings should probably do what you want.
      - rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
        >disabling Location permissions / Location History for Google apps in your app settings should probably do what you want. Google services automatically re-enable these permissions.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- repolfx 8y ago
  Android enforces permissions on Google apps too. I don't think that's what this is about. Rather, the AP is interpreting location history as a feature that controls all use of geographical location for any purpose across all products. But what it actually refers to is a specific product called literally Location History which lets you see where you've been on a timeline and map. The article does admit half way down that Google says this clearly in popups that appear when you toggle these settings on and off. So the "story" here is, if you want to call it a story, that some AP journalist and a couple of academics believe these warnings are not worded clearly enough. They may well have a point but I'm not sure this rises to the level of news. It'd also be very hard to really eliminate _all_ use of location across all products. Even very basic queries like [buy flowers] needs some rough idea of the user's location to give results that aren't nonsense. Even just opening Google Maps has to request the tiles for your current location, and as those tiles are customised to your prior usage of maps, who you are has to be sent along with the tile query. How do you implement that without Google knowing your rough location? The provider knowing this is rather inherent to the whole concept of digital maps to begin with. So I can't imagine Google offering the sort of setting the AP wants.
econ4all 8y ago
This not very different from when the Wall Street Journal published a story a few weeks back about how: "GOOGLE IS LETTING PEOPLE READ YOUR EMAILS (provided you've given them the permission to do so)". It would seem that news organizations are trying to entangle google in a cambridge analytica type of controversy, maybe thinking about the potential traffic going their way or maybe they just don't like it that the bulk of ad spending is going to Google/FB, or probably they just think it's worth publishing. The reality is that the conflict of interest is hard to ignore and the publishing industry should consider adding disclaimers when reporting on their business rivals.
- frabcus 8y ago
  Google's a monopoly in multiple areas by any reasonable definition. So yes, I hope they are being entangled in a Cambridge Analytica type scandal. It is the job of the press to do so. Personally, I think the YouTube recommendation algorithm is a huge problem. Once everyone understands it, that will be the relevant scandal. How YouTube's recommendation algorithm makes everyone more extreme, in all directions: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/10/opinion/sunday/youtube-politics-radical.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/10/opinion/sunday/youtube-po... How YouTube's recommendation algorithm causes creation of appalling content targeted at children: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9EKV2nSU8w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9EKV2nSU8w It is harming our society in deep and scary ways.
  - econ4all 8y ago
    You obviously dislike them and is willfully conflating a bunch of stuff but it's definitely not "the job of the press" to manufacture scandals.
    - arminiusreturns 8y ago
      The job they are supposed to do and the one they actually do are two different things.
ttoinou 8y ago
What part of Android is not FLOSS that makes harder for us to look into the code and guess where there's spying ? Is there competition in Android distribution with all the features needed by most people (replacing GGL Maps with OpenStreetMaps etc.) ?
- mort96 8y ago
  Well, the core of Android is open source (as part of the AOSP), but Google's launcher, the Google Play Services which most apps rely on, lots of the apps which are installed by default, all driver code, etc. is all closed source.
- ForHackernews 8y ago
  Google Play Services are closed source, proprietary, and required for many third-party apps to run properly. There is a project trying to offer FLOSS alternatives, https://microg.org/ https://microg.org/ but it's still pretty rough.
- binomialxenon 8y ago
  On a typical OEM Android device, there's likely more non-free software than free. Due to Android's permissive license, any OEM can change any part of the OS for each device and not publish the source code. On a Lineage or AOSP install, the only significant non-free part are hardware drivers and some library components such as RAR. While this isn't ideal, I doubt Google is spying through them. Using a Android phone without Google (using F-Droid, and OpenStreetMaps) is definitely doable but I don't think most non-geeks would even consider it. I used one for about a year and a half, until I went no-smartphone. I think Eelo is trying to make a "user-friendly" distro, but it just looks like a coat of paint on top of Lineage+microG, I don't think there's much new to it.
diggan 8y ago
Slightly unrelated but something amazing and terrifying happened two days ago. I moved about 6 months ago and I keep a separate OS (Windows) for mainly gaming. When I was waiting for some updates to finish, I was browsing HN and came across a Show HN that shows you food places etc (https://www.justgetmefood.com/ https://www.justgetmefood.com/ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17746497 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17746497). Since I was on my gaming OS, I was not logged in to Google or any of my accounts, only Steam and some other non-important things. I tried out the app, and it promptly showed me restaurants that were 20 minutes of walking distance, from my old place! Down to the street-number. Even though I never gave away the address on that operating system (also installed after the move actually). Somewhere along the pipes, Google picked up that this was me (IP probably?) but somehow mapped me to the old address.
- jquast 8y ago
  How about your wireless access point, did it move with you, and remain the same, possibly unique, "wifi name"?
  - diggan 8y ago
    Hm, good thought but no. New ISP, new modem and new router. None of the existing network gear was moved together with me. However, the wifi name was reused to be the same. But, the computer I'm on doesn't have any wifi so it wouldn't be able to know.
- smarkymark 8y ago
  Do you have multiple devices that connect to your router that could identify you? Have you ever logged into any services like Google or use Google Search/YouTube/Maps on your gaming PC? I still don't know if this is a Google thing. Browsers can share location and it may be possible that it's serving up the last known location because it can't provide the current one.
jevgeni 8y ago
Remember when Microsoft used very basic telemetry in Windows 10 and everybody on HN lost their shit as if it's the privacy armageddon? Google: (very intrasparently tracks your location history, even when settings are off) HN: Yeah, nah, it's chill dude. Can't be that bad.
- bitL 8y ago
  It's different when a phone-level tracking suddenly appears on your desktop. No privacy-minded person was using Android before, but they used Windows. Now they don't.
  - Brakenshire 8y ago
    On the other hand, having access to phone data is exceptionally invasive. Location, accelerometer, contacts, call history, browsing history, all combined.
    - amelius 8y ago
      Don't forget camera and mic.
  - close04 8y ago
    This just proves how little understanding and tech education most users have (still doesn't stop them from having strong opinions on this though). Android data collection which has been happening for close to a decade is orders of magnitude more intrusive than what Microsoft does with basic telemetry. Yet most people see MS as bad and embrace Google for being "ethical". A classic case of "guess what".
    - nojvek 8y ago
      I don’t think people are seeing Google as “not evil”. Google most probably has a much larger reserve of everyone’s dirty laundry. Most android users just don’t realize how invasive the entire OS is and there is little they can do about it. It sucks thah Apple is the only tech company that gives a shit about privacy seriously. We definitely need more pro-privacy choice.
bitL 8y ago
Buying that Sailfish phone was a prescient move in retrospect...
jcfrei 8y ago
What bothers me is that lots of applications will start throwing errors even if you disable just one permission from Google Play Services (like body sensors). Quite some time ago Google started encouraging developers to use the google play permissions together with the respective android permission. This doesn't mean that apps can collect your data even when you disable the location permission (they still can't) but it forces you to either run google play services (with all it's permissions on) and all its data collecting abilities or basically run android without anything available from the play store. It's a really anti-competitive strategy by google, because it gives users the ability to regulate permissions for single apps effectively (limiting the ability of other companies to collect personal data) and on the other hands strengthens googles own ability to collect all your data, making their marketing platform even more valuable. It is high time regulators start cracking down on this anti-competitive behavior when it comes to data collection. Either give all companies the same chance to collect users data or give users a real option to disable it for all applications (even the ones by google).
- devoply 8y ago
  > collect all your data, making their marketing platform even more valuable I think the oily rags metaphor applies. They collect all your data but it's not worth much individually. But yet they want all of it ignoring your needs and rights for privacy.
alyandon 8y ago
I disabled location permissions for everything I could after I discovered that Google had removed the "report location in background" feature toggle for applications. I discovered that it had been removed one day on a trip to Walmart when Google Maps popped up asking me to take a picture of the location. I hadn't used Google Maps in weeks. :-/ My next phone will most likely be an iPhone since Google seems more and more intent on outdoing Facebook in the e-stalking business.
- gxs 8y ago
  This was me last year. After purchasing nothing but android phones, going back to the t-mobile G1, I decided enough is enough and got an iphone. Switched to the new Firefox - it's great. Feels like when I moved to chrome the first time. DDG is my default search engine. I still use the google bang over 80% of the time, but hopefully that goes down over time and it's gotten me out of the habit of thinking google right away. With 60+ accounts, I've slowly started migrating to fastmail. It will probably take a full year to do it slowly, but it will be worth it. My last real reliance is on google maps, truly a superior product. That said, I try to keep my use to longer trips between cities, including longer road trips. I try to use Apple maps for smaller trips around town. This isn't even necessarily all because of everything I think google does wrong, rather it only makes sense to diversify a little. So many people I know use google/chrome/maps/gmail/android/google photos/google docs. Once I realized I was one of them it spooked me a little.
  - lakechfoma 8y ago
    I also switched my personal phone from ~8 years of android to the iPhone after getting an iPhone 6s for work. What a wake up call. > I still use the google bang over 80% of the time, but hopefully that goes down over time I've been using DDG since ~2011 and have found myself using the google bang more today than years ago. Maybe my searches today are harder for DDG? For sure though, DDG has changed. It used to respect weirder search terms much more than Google which made it more appealing to me as a programmer, but now it over zealously corrects keywords, and completely common keywords get left out. Doesn't seem to care as much about keyword order/distance in the results either. It's like they amped the fuzziness beyond what is helpful. I'm proactively quoting half of my search terms today. > google maps, truly a superior product I tried a few times to switch to Apple maps over the last 3 years and each time was disappointed. But about a month ago I tried again and have decided that they are really neck and neck. I don't know if it got better but my partner uses Google still and we compare options and sometimes Apple finds something better sometimes Google does but for the most part they get the same results. Some traffic data exists, including construction/accidents (I have no idea how). You lose streetview and I think the dependence on Yelp is annoying but makes sense. After using it consistently for a month I find the UI/UX is actually a lot better too. It has quirks but so does Google Maps. All that said, it's only getting better and the network effect will help! Give it another try!
adrianmonk 8y ago
> For example, Google stores a snapshot of where you are when you merely open its Maps app. Except in the case of using entirely offline map data, I don't know how the user can expect their location not to be revealed to the server in this case. To see the map, you have to have map data, and which data you pull is going to give a very strong hint of your location. I guess you can distinguish between _a_ location (that you viewed) and _your_ location (that you definitely are at), but it's still an extremely strong hint that after a period of inactivity, the first location you load is probably the location where you are.
- dannyw 8y ago
  The question isn’t about revealling; it’s about storing. Where you look is stored in your web & apps timeline.
- vesinisa 8y ago
  > To see the map, you have to have map data, and which data you pull is going to give a very strong hint of your location. You are missing the point. While the location for which you fetch map data essentially reveals your current location, the request can be fulfilled without making a permanent record connecting that location to your Google account. The issue here is that when people turn off "Location History" in their privacy settings, they except Google not to store the location information to their Google account. But Google seems to be doing it anyway, unless you also disable "Web & App Activity".
  - skybrian 8y ago
    Is this about caching map tiles or something else?
  - adrianmonk 8y ago
    Oh, I see. The article mentions https://myactivity.google.com/ https://myactivity.google.com/ but for some reason it didn't make it a hyperlink like it did with several other things. So I managed to not notice it.
- nonblob 8y ago
throwaway6789 8y ago
I watch YouTube a lot. I have pfSense with lists for blocking Google as well as a Samsung phone with Disconnect (that supposedly blocks all tracking). When I watch YouTube, I usually gets only ads about visiting some place or some photography related ad. Then one day, I got an ad for a divorce attorney. I freaked out because the first thought I came to mind was the Target (?) story where the girl's dad found out she is pregnant because they send pregnancy related ads to her house. Did Google's algorithm figure out I am going to get divorced? I am from India, working in US. My wife recently went back to India. Plan was I will go back after 4-5 months. But she and her parents were worried that I would change my mind. I am worried that she may leave me if I don't. One or two days after I saw the ad, I dismissed my fears of about to be divorced as my paranoia. I have 2 YouTube accounts, the main one and another one that I use for watching porn (I like YouTube porn than those in porn sites). I never used this second account outside a VirtualBox VM. I always restore the VM to a known state every time I use this account. I have seen that sometimes I get recommendations related to the videos I watch in this porn account when I go to YouTube from my regular Windows without even logged in. I thought may be Google is showing it based on my IP address. 4-5 days after the divorce ad, when I was speaking to my wife, she mentioned about one of her friends who divorced her husband because he didn't love her or something. I immediately felt she is indirectly warning me. 7-8 days after the divorce ad, when I checked YouTube from my regular OS without logged in, there was a recommendation video similar to the kind I watch on my VM porn account. One possibility immediately occurred to me. What if my wife searched for divorce related stuff from India and Google's algorithm decided to show that ad thinking she is still in US? I don't know.
- sneak 8y ago
  Get a divorce. Spouses in a healthy marriage do not use threats of abandonment as a manipulation tactic.
- have_faith 8y ago
  > I like YouTube porn than those in porn sites What do you consider YouTube porn? just asking for a friend
sonofblah 8y ago
Wish there were a viable alternative to the duopoly--for now, Apple remains the lesser evil.
chrismartin 8y ago
For those of you wishing for a lower-surveillance experience on Android: please try LineageOS (AOSP) without any of the Google apps or Play Services. Instead, get your apps from F-Droid and Yalp Store. Firefox with NoScript plugin, AdAway, Syncthing, etc. This has been my daily driver for years. Google Maps works well enough in a browser -- I use it as a 'homescreen-installed' web app. Google sees my location only when I am actually using Maps. I'm missing out on a few slick features in the Google native apps (mostly in Maps), but I'll gladly trade that for a device that is not trying to erode my privacy at every possible opportunity.
- Markoff 8y ago
  Google maps are anyway inferior outside US to other apps like Maps.me which has anyway superior map design, much easier to navigate and read than Google maps with those isometric/3D buildings Firefox it's too slow on android, better use Brave, Bromite or Kiwi browser i run also LOS15.1 without gapps
- hodorhodor 8y ago
  What are you doing about the missing GCM/FCM? Especially with messaging apps it's super annoying when they only receive updates when you actually open them.
  - thsealienbstrds 8y ago
    As someone who has been doing this for a while, I find sometimes I don't get a notification until I open an app. You get used to it. Anyway, when someone calls me on Whatsapp it still works fine for instance.
  - chrismartin 8y ago
    Sorry for the late response: email (K-9 Mail) uses IMAP idle, Signal uses a persistent websocket, and XMPP (Conversations) also uses long-lived TCP connections. I don't use any proprietary messaging apps that rely on Google's push notifications.
JorgeGT 8y ago
They seem to do a similar thing with Youtube. I have both Youtube watch history and Youtube search history off. The other day I watched a very amazing video about iron smelting in Africa. Now, each time a open a Youtube link, that specific iron smelting video appears as "recommended for me". So, it is obvious that Google remembers which videos I have watched and openly advertises them again to me. By the way, the video itself is super interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuCnZClWwpQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuCnZClWwpQ
- annadane 8y ago
  Unfortunately there's no accountability in these companies for bold-faced (bald-faced?) lying. They can just stress how much they're listening to our feedback and then kinda go quiet after their latest move goes against absolutely everything the users say.
- fooker 8y ago
  This doesn't require remembering which specific video you watched, an abstract classification would be enough.
- brianpan 8y ago
  > By the way, the video itself is super interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuCnZClWwpQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuCnZClWwpQ Covering up your tracks, eh? Ok, we'll play along. Everybody click on the link provided by Jorge "Totally not into iron smelting more than anyone else" GT.
- Steko 8y ago
  And ... now they've linked your HN profile and are analyzing your comment history to serve you up even more personalized content.
- rubatuga 8y ago
  That doesn’t mean YouTube doesn’t store cookies on your device regarding videos you like. I accidentally clicked on a garbage video and after that all YouTube would recommend to me was more garbage.
MarkMc 8y ago
Wait, the article title says that "Google tracks your movements, like it or not". But if I don't like it I can turn off both "Location History" and "Web and App Activity", right?
- pandler 8y ago
  The whole point of the article is that it’s still tracked even if you turn it off.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- Ajedi32 8y ago
  Yeah, but the article does have a point: > If you’re going to allow users to turn off something called ‘Location History,’ then all the places where you maintain location history should be turned off It's very unintuitive that location data can be stored even when "Location History" is turned off, even if there _is_ another unrelated setting you can toggle to fix that. (Not to mention that setting turns off other things you might want to keep, like search history.)
- 21 8y ago
  Does "Web and App Activity" sounds to you like something that would track your location, especially when you have a separate "Location History"?
Mary-Jane 8y ago
It's funny that when corporations track users to provide customers with content they find useful, people are up in arms about privacy violations; but when governments set up 24 hour city or nation-wide video surveillance, people are much more receptive. Given the relative risks involved (companies want to make it easier for you to buy stuff; governments can send you to prison) one would think it should be the other way around.
- zajd 8y ago
  The governments have access to Google's data and Google will be more than happy to help send you to prison.
- trumped 8y ago
  maybe because people don't want to become victims of crimes but they don't care as much if they buy the "best" TV.... but either way, the government has access of all the data ...
- TangoTrotFox 8y ago
  While I'm also not fond of the government side of surveillance, I think there is one major difference here for many people. And that is artificial creation of demand. Effective advertising can manipulate your wants and desires to convince you to desire things you really have no need or want of. And they go through every possible method to try to achieve this, including psychological manipulation. The reason I'm not fond of advertising is because I'm not arrogant enough to believe I'm immune to it. Collect enough data on me and you can probably create campaigns that would artificially push my interests towards things I would otherwise have 0 interest in. When the government collects data on you the fundamental reason is to protect and grow itself, not to try to empty your wallet. Some of these data may end up getting, let's say, "leaked" and used for more self serving purposes by individual politicians or political parties, but that's at least a technically illegitimate use of the data, whereas such self-serving exploitative functions by corporations are the primary use of the data.
  - skybrian 8y ago
    I wonder what really counts as manipulation? Maybe you walk by an ice cream store and you think "I should get some ice cream". If the ice cream store wasn't there, you wouldn't have thought that. I'm sure someone could talk this up as "convincing you to want things that you otherwise wouldn't have wanted." Maybe this is more of a problem for some people and a liquor store? But the advertising can just be: the store is there. So much of advertising is attempting to remind people to think of things they already like, even when it's not physically present. It's a much easier sell than getting someone to try something new. I can just mention Twitter and some people will think about checking to see what's new on Twitter.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
oh_sigh 8y ago
This really sounds like certain (google employed) app developers aren't aware that they have to abide by certain setting values?
alphabettsy 8y ago
I wish they had an alternate business model where you could pay to opt out of data collection on all their services, but until then I just don’t use them anytime I don’t need to.
- TangoTrotFox 8y ago
  In thinking about this there is some interesting irony in that the people that would pay to opt out are probably the last people Google would ever want to do this, as those are extremely high value accounts willing to pay for even relatively trivial digital services or 'features' as we might call this.
neverminder 8y ago
Well, Captain Obvious moment here. I personally am balls deep into Google's ecosystem (for obvious reasons) just like the next guy, but I never doubted they track everything, in fact I always assumed that. I don't disable location tracking, it's too convenient. I do have a pretty good idea what I would do to disappear from Google's radar if/when I needed - a "clean" phone that connects to internet via VPN, I would check my gmail in browser. Third party maps/navigation app and few other essential apps, none affiliated with Google. Not as convenient, but functional enough.
amelius 8y ago
I wonder if Google has an organizational structure where groups of people work on "dark" projects, that the other groups shouldn't know about. And the uninformed groups get these strange specifications that they need to fulfill but shouldn't ask about.
- skybrian 8y ago
  It's unclear from the article what they're talking about, but that's usually not how it works. More likely, some other teams are not writing code to check if Location History is on. Or they decided it doesn't matter for reasons. Making sure rules are consistently followed in a large organization takes a company-wide effort. It doesn't happen by default.
0xmohit 8y ago
Not at all surprising. They were earlier found stealth downloading audio listeners on computers running Chrome that transmitted audio data back to Google. Source: Google Chrome Listening In To Your Room Shows The Importance Of Privacy Defense In Depth https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/blog/2015/06/google-chrome-listening-in-to-your-room-shows-the-importance-of-privacy-defense-in-depth/ https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/blog/2015/06/google-ch...
- TarpitCarnivore 8y ago
  Your source indicates it's part of Google's OK Google feature, which AFAIK is opt-out on Android as well. The headline makes it seem a little more overblown than it is.
  - trendia 8y ago
    Google's "opt-out" features are so difficult to uniformly turn off. The article points out that Google still tracks location data when you turn location tracking off because there is some other option in a different screen that you also need to turn off. Further, most people never even know to opt-out of these tracking options in the first place, because they don't know that Google is collecting voice data.
  - entropie 8y ago
    > Without consent, Google’s code had downloaded a black box of code that – according to itself – had turned on the microphone and was actively listening to your room. In my world that means chrome would be able to do that; not that is actually listen/recording/uploading stuff all the time. Thats what the image popup says, at least.
crunchlibrarian 8y ago
We're going to need a small army of lawyers who understand code and can subpoena repositories and databases to get out of this horrible dystopic nightmare.
remir 8y ago
With the amount of data Google has and the predictability of human behaviour, I would not be surprised if there's some hiden program inside Google with the aim to predict future events before they happen.
aarestad 8y ago
https://myaccount.google.com/privacy https://myaccount.google.com/privacy is the place to go to double-check your own settings.
schmichael 8y ago
Location History is my biggest pet peeve with Google and nearly got me to switch to iPhone. After getting a super creepy "Here's Where You've Been in the last Week!" email that (a) wasn't accurate and (b) I never opted into, I disabled Location History. However, the number of things this breaks is frustrating: Google Fit requiring it makes some sense, but most of my Google Home features refuse to work without Location History on. It's incredibly frustrating when a physical device is artificially limited for reasons beyond a consumer's comprehension.
throw2016 8y ago
This constant abuse of language to play duplicitous games with users is unethical and betrays crass opportunism. This is not a business, it is 'growth hacking' to a tyranny. Posturing about evil while doing exactly that is vulgar. Google's language and design has been persistently deceptive. If you think users are 'idiots' as many software folks so derogatorily claim why go through such lengths to deceive them? Another self serving myth to perpetuate denial and make the surveillance industry feel ok about being sellouts. Android is designed to leak data like a sieve. The very notion of privacy or security with the OS vendor and ecosystem obsessed with surveillance and collecting user data is fantastic. Google would not be where there are had they been transparent in their communication. Users would be far more circumspect and as they learn the extent of surveillance utter disgust will quickly follow. This is just another type of corruption and fraud.
anotherNae 8y ago
Google Play Services is probably the most intrusive app on the phone and good luck if you disable it. This one time I tried disabling most of the Google apps on my phone (Android 7.1.2) including Chrome and I did not have a WebView implementation remaining. Most apps started crashing until I re-enabled Chrome. I have all Google apps disabled except Google Play Services but that too does not have any permissions granted (thanks stock Nougat). It keeps bugging me every now and then to enable permissions. By the way, for people who would want to relieve themselves of Google Play Store, I use an alternate App Store https://f-droid.org/en/packages/com.github.yeriomin.yalpstore/ https://f-droid.org/en/packages/com.github.yeriomin.yalpstor... Sure automatic updates are a hassle, but I don't have a lot of apps so things are alright. Plus, it lets me download previous versions of apps without digging up the whole internet. I am using an old imgur app that allows browsing without sign up. :) I still hate the ever present search bar on the home screen even after disabling the Google App. Will try Nova Launcher soon.
Anthony-G 8y ago
I keep all location services turned off on my Android device – unless I have a good use case, e.g., I’m in a strange town/city and I need to know where I am on the map. So, I figured I should be safe from the privacy violation(s) described in this article. Then I got to the section that reported about the tracking of Android users by “collecting the addresses of nearby cellphone towers”. :( Even though “Google changed the practice and insisted it never recorded the data anyway”, it appears that just carrying any Android device comes with the cost of ongoing background location tracking. I’ve long accepted that carrying any kind of mobile phones allows mobile operators and state actors to track one’s location – but it seems to be a constant battle for citizens to understand how they might minimise the scope and quantity of personal data being harvested by large tech companies. I don’t know enough about the letter of the law but this kind of surreptitious location monitoring (via mis-leading options when Location History is turned off) seems to violate the spirit of the GDPR.
- Ajedi32 8y ago
  Pretty sure determining your location via the signal strength of nearby cell towers is a feature of Location Services, so if you have that turned off you're fine.
oinkgrr 8y ago
Also mentioned here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-45183041 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-45183041
marssaxman 8y ago
It has always seemed likely to me that Google tracks more information than one might immediately suspect, so I try not to do anything which might make it convenient for them. With reference to location, I leave GPS turned off essentially all the time, and I never enter any Google account credentials into an Android phone. I don't know how much it helps, but it can't hurt.
spacenick88 8y ago
I guess I'm the only one here who actively turns Location History on. That way I do get the benefits like being able to exactly pin-point when I was where and I can make sure the data Google believes isn't wrong. Then if I don't want to be tracked I can just leave my phone at home and everything will look absolutely normal and no one is any wiser.
Lendal 8y ago
Am I the only person in the world that uses Timeline? I don't use Google's search but I do use Timeline frequently and find it useful enough that it's worth the risk. So I understand the difference between these different privacy settings, which AP is calling "an issue". It's not an "issue". People are freaking out like frightened mice and making it into something it's not. Fear is the motivator here, not facts. The ability to feed the Timeline app with location data is a separate thing from turning off all other apps' ability to use location data. Why is this so difficult for people to understand? I know the answer. Viral fear shuts off your brains' ability to think. I answered my own question.
- amaccuish 8y ago
  This is a typical engineer comment, completly removed from Joe user.
singularity2001 8y ago
«Google’s support page on the subject states: “You can turn off Location History at any time. With Location History off, the places you go are no longer stored.” That isn’t true.…» Can Google be sued for … lying?
bprasanna 8y ago
Google will say it is for better user experience, but we users know its a privacy breach. The same thing happened to me many times, without GPS switched on, without location history enabled, many times Google maps used to ask me to write a review about a place which i visited recently. Recently Google Drive asked for permission of using Wifi information. Why to ask permission just abuse it internally.

515 points by tombrossman 8y ago

Everyone remembers decades ago, the fear of having a first/last name online. That turned out to be significantly less dangerous than we anticipated. What if our movements are similar? Everyone knows where you work and where your home. Whatever the case, the next few years will decide if we value privacy or endless features.

akerro 8y ago
I dont care what your fullname is, but mind telling me what your address is and when you're leaving home with that 50' plasma TV for 2 weeks holiday?
- paulie_a 8y ago
  A tv that has basically zero resale value?
gumby 8y ago
> Whatever the case, the next few years will decide if we value privacy or endless features. Or if it's worth making cool new features that preserve the user's privacy. I don't see that there is an inherent tradeoff.
- bmomb 8y ago
  I think that cool features that protects user privacy is hard to come by because this is not the type of feature that brings money. Protecting the user is (in most of the cases) fighting ads.
onion2k 8y ago
That turned out to be significantly less dangerous than we anticipated. ...where "we" is limited to people in Western democracies with governments that don't oppress their citizens. People in countries that have less enlightened governments have often had a pretty bad time after posting things online in ways that security services have been able to monitor, track, and use as the basis for imprisonment and worse. I don't believe that Google is passing data about people to oppressive regimes, but there are damn good reasons why people think privacy is important for all internet users.
- jmisavage 8y ago
  The fact Google is making a search engine specific to China to meet their requirements for censorship opens the door for that very specific thing. First it's hiding results that the government doesn't want seen. Next it will be reporting who's looking for censored topics. It's a slippery slope.
wolco 8y ago
Real names has led to people being fired people being fired. The fear around social media and guarding your profile is to prevent future employers, family and people you know in life from finding out things you do not wish to share. Being tracked with a real name attached creates these privacy issues. The advertisers demanded but it lessens the experience ij many ways.
hiccuphippo 8y ago
Has having your SSN online become less dangerous since the Equifax leak?
- ocdtrekkie 8y ago
  Not really. I expected the Equifax leak to lead to a widespread move away from SSN being effectively your password for signing up for new financial accounts, but nothing has really changed as far as I'm aware.
sophistication 8y ago
A killer drone would have a much easier time eliminating someone knowing their location compared to just knowing their name.
- pasta 8y ago
  For people who think this is BS: better not use Google products in Pakistan for example.
macintux 8y ago
This sounds like a male perspective. Women have a very different view on how safe they are when anyone can find out who they are and where they live.
- snvzz 8y ago
  What a sexist view.
  - macintux 8y ago
    I thought it was indisputable that women are stalked vastly more frequently than men, harassed more often online, and typically less comfortable being alone in dangerous areas.
    - snvzz 8y ago
      Lack of scepticism, if anything.
YouKnowBetter 8y ago
Same story for mobile service providers. Cellphone companies have known your "exact" location for the last 20 years. There is a lot less oversight or scruples in the engineering teams of providers (that I have worked at) then I have seen at Google and the likes. Nobody (but a couple of spies, smart crooks & prewarned govermental types) take any measures to hide from them, or complain about this information being available. Luckily for us, telecom companies are not that smart|agressive when it comes to finding new revenue streams. Be it based on your (phone's) location or their excellent position to offer verified identity services, since they have a payment relation with all their customers.
- acct1771 8y ago
  Bullshit. They're great at it. They just don't tell you/"you" (general populace) don't bother to inform yourself about it. See: Verizon buying up ad networks, CarrierIQ, etc
CaptSpify 8y ago
> That turned out to be significantly less dangerous than we anticipated. Tell that to people who have been doxxed. Or people who have had their stalkers find them. Or people who have been arrested by oppressive governments... The list goes on

ivan_ah 8y ago

Link to the "Web & App Activity" control panel: https://myaccount.google.com/activitycontrols/search?pli=1 https://myaccount.google.com/activitycontrols/search?pli=1

pasta 8y ago
According to the article this page doesn't include everything they track.
snarkyturtle 8y ago
They still track you with Location Services off, according to this map: https://interactives.ap.org/google-location-tracking/ https://interactives.ap.org/google-location-tracking/
- jsn 8y ago
  No, according to this map they track you with Location History off (it says so right in the title, actually), not with Location Services off.
pacala 8y ago
The article claims otherwise. > Google says that will prevent the company from remembering where you’ve been. Google’s support page on the subject states: “You can turn off Location History at any time. With Location History off, the places you go are no longer stored.” > That isn’t true. Even with Location History paused, some Google apps automatically store time-stamped location data without asking. > For example, Google stores a snapshot of where you are when you merely open its Maps app. Automatic daily weather updates on Android phones pinpoint roughly where you are. And some searches that have nothing to do with location, like “chocolate chip cookies,” or “kids science kits,” pinpoint your precise latitude and longitude — accurate to the square foot — and save it to your Google account.
- HillaryBriss 8y ago
  > accurate to the square foot Not sure where they're getting this. Which android phones are recording location with that level of accuracy? My understanding is that, even with the latest Round Trip Time accuracy improvements accessible with Android Pie and 802.11mc WiFi, the best case scenario is one-meter accuracy: "RTT measures the round-trip time between two Wi-Fi devices so both your mobile phone and your access points need to support the 802.11mc protocol. As you saw, RTT can give you very fine location estimates down to one-meter accuracy" http://gpsworld.com/how-to-achieve-1-meter-accuracy-in-android/ http://gpsworld.com/how-to-achieve-1-meter-accuracy-in-andro...

pasta 8y ago

What is driving me away from Google's Android is that they keep asking me to turn stuff on I don't want to turn on. I know that "when it's free I am the product" but the problem is that this is not very obvious when you buy a device. My $100,- Motorola Moto C plus is great but I can't remove the Google search box from my home screen for example. What would be great is that producers would tell how much I am the product because Google sponsored X, Y and Z to make the phone cheaper. Then a consumer can make the choice to buy a more expensive one or just accept that "you are the product".

soziawa 8y ago
You can return it if it doesn't match what was advertised.
rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
>My $100,- Motorola Moto C plus is great but I can't remove the Google search box from my home screen for example. It's quite annoying and show how far Google goes to shove their data collection tools down our throats. I recommend this free and independent launcher: https://f-droid.org/en/packages/ch.deletescape.lawnchair.plah/ https://f-droid.org/en/packages/ch.deletescape.lawnchair.pla...
izacus 8y ago
While your complaint is valid, replacing the launcher on your phone will remove the Google bar. (Nova launcher is very popular alternative to the built in ones and gives you quite a few options for customisation.) The constant nagging to enable Location History is the worst though.
- ams6110 8y ago
  Strange, I keep location services off all the time unless I am actively using Maps navigation. Location history is off also. I don't receive "nags" excepting when I start Maps, I get a request to turn on location services.
dmm 8y ago
> I can't remove the Google search box from my home screen for example. You can remove it if you disable "Google Play Services" in Settings -> Apps. Of course if you do then can't use the android store or most apps. I use the alternative fdroid repository and it works fine.

macintux 8y ago

The article appears to describe only Google’s controls over your account, ignoring the iOS restrictions that allow iPhone and iPad users to prevent Google from seeing the data in the first place. Unfortunate that they don’t make that clear.

izacus 8y ago
And exact same thing is true for Android as well - even Google apps won't get location data if you disable the permission or toggle.
- rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
  So, you're saying one can allow some apps to have access to location data *andµ not allow Google from accessing it? Wow. Please tell me how to that. I've been trying to do that for yeaaaars (to no avail). I have a Moto G5 with Android 7.1. Please tell me.
  - izacus 8y ago
    Depends on what do you mean by "not allowing Google from accessing it"? Setting location mode to GPS only and disabling Location permissions / Location History for Google apps in your app settings should probably do what you want.
    - rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
      >disabling Location permissions / Location History for Google apps in your app settings should probably do what you want. Google services automatically re-enable these permissions.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
repolfx 8y ago
Android enforces permissions on Google apps too. I don't think that's what this is about. Rather, the AP is interpreting location history as a feature that controls all use of geographical location for any purpose across all products. But what it actually refers to is a specific product called literally Location History which lets you see where you've been on a timeline and map. The article does admit half way down that Google says this clearly in popups that appear when you toggle these settings on and off. So the "story" here is, if you want to call it a story, that some AP journalist and a couple of academics believe these warnings are not worded clearly enough. They may well have a point but I'm not sure this rises to the level of news. It'd also be very hard to really eliminate _all_ use of location across all products. Even very basic queries like [buy flowers] needs some rough idea of the user's location to give results that aren't nonsense. Even just opening Google Maps has to request the tiles for your current location, and as those tiles are customised to your prior usage of maps, who you are has to be sent along with the tile query. How do you implement that without Google knowing your rough location? The provider knowing this is rather inherent to the whole concept of digital maps to begin with. So I can't imagine Google offering the sort of setting the AP wants.

econ4all 8y ago

This not very different from when the Wall Street Journal published a story a few weeks back about how: "GOOGLE IS LETTING PEOPLE READ YOUR EMAILS (provided you've given them the permission to do so)". It would seem that news organizations are trying to entangle google in a cambridge analytica type of controversy, maybe thinking about the potential traffic going their way or maybe they just don't like it that the bulk of ad spending is going to Google/FB, or probably they just think it's worth publishing. The reality is that the conflict of interest is hard to ignore and the publishing industry should consider adding disclaimers when reporting on their business rivals.

frabcus 8y ago
Google's a monopoly in multiple areas by any reasonable definition. So yes, I hope they are being entangled in a Cambridge Analytica type scandal. It is the job of the press to do so. Personally, I think the YouTube recommendation algorithm is a huge problem. Once everyone understands it, that will be the relevant scandal. How YouTube's recommendation algorithm makes everyone more extreme, in all directions: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/10/opinion/sunday/youtube-politics-radical.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/10/opinion/sunday/youtube-po... How YouTube's recommendation algorithm causes creation of appalling content targeted at children: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9EKV2nSU8w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9EKV2nSU8w It is harming our society in deep and scary ways.
- econ4all 8y ago
  You obviously dislike them and is willfully conflating a bunch of stuff but it's definitely not "the job of the press" to manufacture scandals.
  - arminiusreturns 8y ago
    The job they are supposed to do and the one they actually do are two different things.

ttoinou 8y ago

What part of Android is not FLOSS that makes harder for us to look into the code and guess where there's spying ? Is there competition in Android distribution with all the features needed by most people (replacing GGL Maps with OpenStreetMaps etc.) ?

mort96 8y ago
Well, the core of Android is open source (as part of the AOSP), but Google's launcher, the Google Play Services which most apps rely on, lots of the apps which are installed by default, all driver code, etc. is all closed source.
ForHackernews 8y ago
Google Play Services are closed source, proprietary, and required for many third-party apps to run properly. There is a project trying to offer FLOSS alternatives, https://microg.org/ https://microg.org/ but it's still pretty rough.
binomialxenon 8y ago
On a typical OEM Android device, there's likely more non-free software than free. Due to Android's permissive license, any OEM can change any part of the OS for each device and not publish the source code. On a Lineage or AOSP install, the only significant non-free part are hardware drivers and some library components such as RAR. While this isn't ideal, I doubt Google is spying through them. Using a Android phone without Google (using F-Droid, and OpenStreetMaps) is definitely doable but I don't think most non-geeks would even consider it. I used one for about a year and a half, until I went no-smartphone. I think Eelo is trying to make a "user-friendly" distro, but it just looks like a coat of paint on top of Lineage+microG, I don't think there's much new to it.

diggan 8y ago

Slightly unrelated but something amazing and terrifying happened two days ago. I moved about 6 months ago and I keep a separate OS (Windows) for mainly gaming. When I was waiting for some updates to finish, I was browsing HN and came across a Show HN that shows you food places etc (https://www.justgetmefood.com/ https://www.justgetmefood.com/ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17746497 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17746497). Since I was on my gaming OS, I was not logged in to Google or any of my accounts, only Steam and some other non-important things. I tried out the app, and it promptly showed me restaurants that were 20 minutes of walking distance, from my old place! Down to the street-number. Even though I never gave away the address on that operating system (also installed after the move actually). Somewhere along the pipes, Google picked up that this was me (IP probably?) but somehow mapped me to the old address.

jquast 8y ago
How about your wireless access point, did it move with you, and remain the same, possibly unique, "wifi name"?
- diggan 8y ago
  Hm, good thought but no. New ISP, new modem and new router. None of the existing network gear was moved together with me. However, the wifi name was reused to be the same. But, the computer I'm on doesn't have any wifi so it wouldn't be able to know.
smarkymark 8y ago
Do you have multiple devices that connect to your router that could identify you? Have you ever logged into any services like Google or use Google Search/YouTube/Maps on your gaming PC? I still don't know if this is a Google thing. Browsers can share location and it may be possible that it's serving up the last known location because it can't provide the current one.

jevgeni 8y ago

Remember when Microsoft used very basic telemetry in Windows 10 and everybody on HN lost their shit as if it's the privacy armageddon? Google: (very intrasparently tracks your location history, even when settings are off) HN: Yeah, nah, it's chill dude. Can't be that bad.

bitL 8y ago
It's different when a phone-level tracking suddenly appears on your desktop. No privacy-minded person was using Android before, but they used Windows. Now they don't.
- Brakenshire 8y ago
  On the other hand, having access to phone data is exceptionally invasive. Location, accelerometer, contacts, call history, browsing history, all combined.
  - amelius 8y ago
    Don't forget camera and mic.
- close04 8y ago
  This just proves how little understanding and tech education most users have (still doesn't stop them from having strong opinions on this though). Android data collection which has been happening for close to a decade is orders of magnitude more intrusive than what Microsoft does with basic telemetry. Yet most people see MS as bad and embrace Google for being "ethical". A classic case of "guess what".
  - nojvek 8y ago
    I don’t think people are seeing Google as “not evil”. Google most probably has a much larger reserve of everyone’s dirty laundry. Most android users just don’t realize how invasive the entire OS is and there is little they can do about it. It sucks thah Apple is the only tech company that gives a shit about privacy seriously. We definitely need more pro-privacy choice.

bitL 8y ago

Buying that Sailfish phone was a prescient move in retrospect...

jcfrei 8y ago

What bothers me is that lots of applications will start throwing errors even if you disable just one permission from Google Play Services (like body sensors). Quite some time ago Google started encouraging developers to use the google play permissions together with the respective android permission. This doesn't mean that apps can collect your data even when you disable the location permission (they still can't) but it forces you to either run google play services (with all it's permissions on) and all its data collecting abilities or basically run android without anything available from the play store. It's a really anti-competitive strategy by google, because it gives users the ability to regulate permissions for single apps effectively (limiting the ability of other companies to collect personal data) and on the other hands strengthens googles own ability to collect all your data, making their marketing platform even more valuable. It is high time regulators start cracking down on this anti-competitive behavior when it comes to data collection. Either give all companies the same chance to collect users data or give users a real option to disable it for all applications (even the ones by google).

devoply 8y ago
> collect all your data, making their marketing platform even more valuable I think the oily rags metaphor applies. They collect all your data but it's not worth much individually. But yet they want all of it ignoring your needs and rights for privacy.

alyandon 8y ago

I disabled location permissions for everything I could after I discovered that Google had removed the "report location in background" feature toggle for applications. I discovered that it had been removed one day on a trip to Walmart when Google Maps popped up asking me to take a picture of the location. I hadn't used Google Maps in weeks. :-/ My next phone will most likely be an iPhone since Google seems more and more intent on outdoing Facebook in the e-stalking business.

gxs 8y ago
This was me last year. After purchasing nothing but android phones, going back to the t-mobile G1, I decided enough is enough and got an iphone. Switched to the new Firefox - it's great. Feels like when I moved to chrome the first time. DDG is my default search engine. I still use the google bang over 80% of the time, but hopefully that goes down over time and it's gotten me out of the habit of thinking google right away. With 60+ accounts, I've slowly started migrating to fastmail. It will probably take a full year to do it slowly, but it will be worth it. My last real reliance is on google maps, truly a superior product. That said, I try to keep my use to longer trips between cities, including longer road trips. I try to use Apple maps for smaller trips around town. This isn't even necessarily all because of everything I think google does wrong, rather it only makes sense to diversify a little. So many people I know use google/chrome/maps/gmail/android/google photos/google docs. Once I realized I was one of them it spooked me a little.
- lakechfoma 8y ago
  I also switched my personal phone from ~8 years of android to the iPhone after getting an iPhone 6s for work. What a wake up call. > I still use the google bang over 80% of the time, but hopefully that goes down over time I've been using DDG since ~2011 and have found myself using the google bang more today than years ago. Maybe my searches today are harder for DDG? For sure though, DDG has changed. It used to respect weirder search terms much more than Google which made it more appealing to me as a programmer, but now it over zealously corrects keywords, and completely common keywords get left out. Doesn't seem to care as much about keyword order/distance in the results either. It's like they amped the fuzziness beyond what is helpful. I'm proactively quoting half of my search terms today. > google maps, truly a superior product I tried a few times to switch to Apple maps over the last 3 years and each time was disappointed. But about a month ago I tried again and have decided that they are really neck and neck. I don't know if it got better but my partner uses Google still and we compare options and sometimes Apple finds something better sometimes Google does but for the most part they get the same results. Some traffic data exists, including construction/accidents (I have no idea how). You lose streetview and I think the dependence on Yelp is annoying but makes sense. After using it consistently for a month I find the UI/UX is actually a lot better too. It has quirks but so does Google Maps. All that said, it's only getting better and the network effect will help! Give it another try!

adrianmonk 8y ago

> For example, Google stores a snapshot of where you are when you merely open its Maps app. Except in the case of using entirely offline map data, I don't know how the user can expect their location not to be revealed to the server in this case. To see the map, you have to have map data, and which data you pull is going to give a very strong hint of your location. I guess you can distinguish between _a_ location (that you viewed) and _your_ location (that you definitely are at), but it's still an extremely strong hint that after a period of inactivity, the first location you load is probably the location where you are.

dannyw 8y ago
The question isn’t about revealling; it’s about storing. Where you look is stored in your web & apps timeline.
vesinisa 8y ago
> To see the map, you have to have map data, and which data you pull is going to give a very strong hint of your location. You are missing the point. While the location for which you fetch map data essentially reveals your current location, the request can be fulfilled without making a permanent record connecting that location to your Google account. The issue here is that when people turn off "Location History" in their privacy settings, they except Google not to store the location information to their Google account. But Google seems to be doing it anyway, unless you also disable "Web & App Activity".
- skybrian 8y ago
  Is this about caching map tiles or something else?
- adrianmonk 8y ago
  Oh, I see. The article mentions https://myactivity.google.com/ https://myactivity.google.com/ but for some reason it didn't make it a hyperlink like it did with several other things. So I managed to not notice it.
nonblob 8y ago

throwaway6789 8y ago

I watch YouTube a lot. I have pfSense with lists for blocking Google as well as a Samsung phone with Disconnect (that supposedly blocks all tracking). When I watch YouTube, I usually gets only ads about visiting some place or some photography related ad. Then one day, I got an ad for a divorce attorney. I freaked out because the first thought I came to mind was the Target (?) story where the girl's dad found out she is pregnant because they send pregnancy related ads to her house. Did Google's algorithm figure out I am going to get divorced? I am from India, working in US. My wife recently went back to India. Plan was I will go back after 4-5 months. But she and her parents were worried that I would change my mind. I am worried that she may leave me if I don't. One or two days after I saw the ad, I dismissed my fears of about to be divorced as my paranoia. I have 2 YouTube accounts, the main one and another one that I use for watching porn (I like YouTube porn than those in porn sites). I never used this second account outside a VirtualBox VM. I always restore the VM to a known state every time I use this account. I have seen that sometimes I get recommendations related to the videos I watch in this porn account when I go to YouTube from my regular Windows without even logged in. I thought may be Google is showing it based on my IP address. 4-5 days after the divorce ad, when I was speaking to my wife, she mentioned about one of her friends who divorced her husband because he didn't love her or something. I immediately felt she is indirectly warning me. 7-8 days after the divorce ad, when I checked YouTube from my regular OS without logged in, there was a recommendation video similar to the kind I watch on my VM porn account. One possibility immediately occurred to me. What if my wife searched for divorce related stuff from India and Google's algorithm decided to show that ad thinking she is still in US? I don't know.

sneak 8y ago
Get a divorce. Spouses in a healthy marriage do not use threats of abandonment as a manipulation tactic.
have_faith 8y ago
> I like YouTube porn than those in porn sites What do you consider YouTube porn? just asking for a friend

sonofblah 8y ago

Wish there were a viable alternative to the duopoly--for now, Apple remains the lesser evil.

chrismartin 8y ago

For those of you wishing for a lower-surveillance experience on Android: please try LineageOS (AOSP) without any of the Google apps or Play Services. Instead, get your apps from F-Droid and Yalp Store. Firefox with NoScript plugin, AdAway, Syncthing, etc. This has been my daily driver for years. Google Maps works well enough in a browser -- I use it as a 'homescreen-installed' web app. Google sees my location only when I am actually using Maps. I'm missing out on a few slick features in the Google native apps (mostly in Maps), but I'll gladly trade that for a device that is not trying to erode my privacy at every possible opportunity.

Markoff 8y ago
Google maps are anyway inferior outside US to other apps like Maps.me which has anyway superior map design, much easier to navigate and read than Google maps with those isometric/3D buildings Firefox it's too slow on android, better use Brave, Bromite or Kiwi browser i run also LOS15.1 without gapps
hodorhodor 8y ago
What are you doing about the missing GCM/FCM? Especially with messaging apps it's super annoying when they only receive updates when you actually open them.
- thsealienbstrds 8y ago
  As someone who has been doing this for a while, I find sometimes I don't get a notification until I open an app. You get used to it. Anyway, when someone calls me on Whatsapp it still works fine for instance.
- chrismartin 8y ago
  Sorry for the late response: email (K-9 Mail) uses IMAP idle, Signal uses a persistent websocket, and XMPP (Conversations) also uses long-lived TCP connections. I don't use any proprietary messaging apps that rely on Google's push notifications.

JorgeGT 8y ago

They seem to do a similar thing with Youtube. I have both Youtube watch history and Youtube search history off. The other day I watched a very amazing video about iron smelting in Africa. Now, each time a open a Youtube link, that specific iron smelting video appears as "recommended for me". So, it is obvious that Google remembers which videos I have watched and openly advertises them again to me. By the way, the video itself is super interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuCnZClWwpQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuCnZClWwpQ

annadane 8y ago
Unfortunately there's no accountability in these companies for bold-faced (bald-faced?) lying. They can just stress how much they're listening to our feedback and then kinda go quiet after their latest move goes against absolutely everything the users say.
fooker 8y ago
This doesn't require remembering which specific video you watched, an abstract classification would be enough.
brianpan 8y ago
> By the way, the video itself is super interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuCnZClWwpQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuCnZClWwpQ Covering up your tracks, eh? Ok, we'll play along. Everybody click on the link provided by Jorge "Totally not into iron smelting more than anyone else" GT.
Steko 8y ago
And ... now they've linked your HN profile and are analyzing your comment history to serve you up even more personalized content.
rubatuga 8y ago
That doesn’t mean YouTube doesn’t store cookies on your device regarding videos you like. I accidentally clicked on a garbage video and after that all YouTube would recommend to me was more garbage.

MarkMc 8y ago

Wait, the article title says that "Google tracks your movements, like it or not". But if I don't like it I can turn off both "Location History" and "Web and App Activity", right?

pandler 8y ago
The whole point of the article is that it’s still tracked even if you turn it off.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
Ajedi32 8y ago
Yeah, but the article does have a point: > If you’re going to allow users to turn off something called ‘Location History,’ then all the places where you maintain location history should be turned off It's very unintuitive that location data can be stored even when "Location History" is turned off, even if there _is_ another unrelated setting you can toggle to fix that. (Not to mention that setting turns off other things you might want to keep, like search history.)
21 8y ago
Does "Web and App Activity" sounds to you like something that would track your location, especially when you have a separate "Location History"?

Mary-Jane 8y ago

It's funny that when corporations track users to provide customers with content they find useful, people are up in arms about privacy violations; but when governments set up 24 hour city or nation-wide video surveillance, people are much more receptive. Given the relative risks involved (companies want to make it easier for you to buy stuff; governments can send you to prison) one would think it should be the other way around.

zajd 8y ago
The governments have access to Google's data and Google will be more than happy to help send you to prison.
trumped 8y ago
maybe because people don't want to become victims of crimes but they don't care as much if they buy the "best" TV.... but either way, the government has access of all the data ...
TangoTrotFox 8y ago
While I'm also not fond of the government side of surveillance, I think there is one major difference here for many people. And that is artificial creation of demand. Effective advertising can manipulate your wants and desires to convince you to desire things you really have no need or want of. And they go through every possible method to try to achieve this, including psychological manipulation. The reason I'm not fond of advertising is because I'm not arrogant enough to believe I'm immune to it. Collect enough data on me and you can probably create campaigns that would artificially push my interests towards things I would otherwise have 0 interest in. When the government collects data on you the fundamental reason is to protect and grow itself, not to try to empty your wallet. Some of these data may end up getting, let's say, "leaked" and used for more self serving purposes by individual politicians or political parties, but that's at least a technically illegitimate use of the data, whereas such self-serving exploitative functions by corporations are the primary use of the data.
- skybrian 8y ago
  I wonder what really counts as manipulation? Maybe you walk by an ice cream store and you think "I should get some ice cream". If the ice cream store wasn't there, you wouldn't have thought that. I'm sure someone could talk this up as "convincing you to want things that you otherwise wouldn't have wanted." Maybe this is more of a problem for some people and a liquor store? But the advertising can just be: the store is there. So much of advertising is attempting to remind people to think of things they already like, even when it's not physically present. It's a much easier sell than getting someone to try something new. I can just mention Twitter and some people will think about checking to see what's new on Twitter.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

oh_sigh 8y ago

This really sounds like certain (google employed) app developers aren't aware that they have to abide by certain setting values?

alphabettsy 8y ago

I wish they had an alternate business model where you could pay to opt out of data collection on all their services, but until then I just don’t use them anytime I don’t need to.

TangoTrotFox 8y ago
In thinking about this there is some interesting irony in that the people that would pay to opt out are probably the last people Google would ever want to do this, as those are extremely high value accounts willing to pay for even relatively trivial digital services or 'features' as we might call this.

neverminder 8y ago

Well, Captain Obvious moment here. I personally am balls deep into Google's ecosystem (for obvious reasons) just like the next guy, but I never doubted they track everything, in fact I always assumed that. I don't disable location tracking, it's too convenient. I do have a pretty good idea what I would do to disappear from Google's radar if/when I needed - a "clean" phone that connects to internet via VPN, I would check my gmail in browser. Third party maps/navigation app and few other essential apps, none affiliated with Google. Not as convenient, but functional enough.

amelius 8y ago

I wonder if Google has an organizational structure where groups of people work on "dark" projects, that the other groups shouldn't know about. And the uninformed groups get these strange specifications that they need to fulfill but shouldn't ask about.

skybrian 8y ago
It's unclear from the article what they're talking about, but that's usually not how it works. More likely, some other teams are not writing code to check if Location History is on. Or they decided it doesn't matter for reasons. Making sure rules are consistently followed in a large organization takes a company-wide effort. It doesn't happen by default.

0xmohit 8y ago

Not at all surprising. They were earlier found stealth downloading audio listeners on computers running Chrome that transmitted audio data back to Google. Source: Google Chrome Listening In To Your Room Shows The Importance Of Privacy Defense In Depth https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/blog/2015/06/google-chrome-listening-in-to-your-room-shows-the-importance-of-privacy-defense-in-depth/ https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/blog/2015/06/google-ch...

TarpitCarnivore 8y ago
Your source indicates it's part of Google's OK Google feature, which AFAIK is opt-out on Android as well. The headline makes it seem a little more overblown than it is.
- trendia 8y ago
  Google's "opt-out" features are so difficult to uniformly turn off. The article points out that Google still tracks location data when you turn location tracking off because there is some other option in a different screen that you also need to turn off. Further, most people never even know to opt-out of these tracking options in the first place, because they don't know that Google is collecting voice data.
- entropie 8y ago
  > Without consent, Google’s code had downloaded a black box of code that – according to itself – had turned on the microphone and was actively listening to your room. In my world that means chrome would be able to do that; not that is actually listen/recording/uploading stuff all the time. Thats what the image popup says, at least.

crunchlibrarian 8y ago

We're going to need a small army of lawyers who understand code and can subpoena repositories and databases to get out of this horrible dystopic nightmare.

remir 8y ago

With the amount of data Google has and the predictability of human behaviour, I would not be surprised if there's some hiden program inside Google with the aim to predict future events before they happen.

aarestad 8y ago

https://myaccount.google.com/privacy https://myaccount.google.com/privacy is the place to go to double-check your own settings.

schmichael 8y ago

Location History is my biggest pet peeve with Google and nearly got me to switch to iPhone. After getting a super creepy "Here's Where You've Been in the last Week!" email that (a) wasn't accurate and (b) I never opted into, I disabled Location History. However, the number of things this breaks is frustrating: Google Fit requiring it makes some sense, but most of my Google Home features refuse to work without Location History on. It's incredibly frustrating when a physical device is artificially limited for reasons beyond a consumer's comprehension.

throw2016 8y ago

This constant abuse of language to play duplicitous games with users is unethical and betrays crass opportunism. This is not a business, it is 'growth hacking' to a tyranny. Posturing about evil while doing exactly that is vulgar. Google's language and design has been persistently deceptive. If you think users are 'idiots' as many software folks so derogatorily claim why go through such lengths to deceive them? Another self serving myth to perpetuate denial and make the surveillance industry feel ok about being sellouts. Android is designed to leak data like a sieve. The very notion of privacy or security with the OS vendor and ecosystem obsessed with surveillance and collecting user data is fantastic. Google would not be where there are had they been transparent in their communication. Users would be far more circumspect and as they learn the extent of surveillance utter disgust will quickly follow. This is just another type of corruption and fraud.

anotherNae 8y ago

Google Play Services is probably the most intrusive app on the phone and good luck if you disable it. This one time I tried disabling most of the Google apps on my phone (Android 7.1.2) including Chrome and I did not have a WebView implementation remaining. Most apps started crashing until I re-enabled Chrome. I have all Google apps disabled except Google Play Services but that too does not have any permissions granted (thanks stock Nougat). It keeps bugging me every now and then to enable permissions. By the way, for people who would want to relieve themselves of Google Play Store, I use an alternate App Store https://f-droid.org/en/packages/com.github.yeriomin.yalpstore/ https://f-droid.org/en/packages/com.github.yeriomin.yalpstor... Sure automatic updates are a hassle, but I don't have a lot of apps so things are alright. Plus, it lets me download previous versions of apps without digging up the whole internet. I am using an old imgur app that allows browsing without sign up. :) I still hate the ever present search bar on the home screen even after disabling the Google App. Will try Nova Launcher soon.

Anthony-G 8y ago

I keep all location services turned off on my Android device – unless I have a good use case, e.g., I’m in a strange town/city and I need to know where I am on the map. So, I figured I should be safe from the privacy violation(s) described in this article. Then I got to the section that reported about the tracking of Android users by “collecting the addresses of nearby cellphone towers”. :( Even though “Google changed the practice and insisted it never recorded the data anyway”, it appears that just carrying any Android device comes with the cost of ongoing background location tracking. I’ve long accepted that carrying any kind of mobile phones allows mobile operators and state actors to track one’s location – but it seems to be a constant battle for citizens to understand how they might minimise the scope and quantity of personal data being harvested by large tech companies. I don’t know enough about the letter of the law but this kind of surreptitious location monitoring (via mis-leading options when Location History is turned off) seems to violate the spirit of the GDPR.

Ajedi32 8y ago
Pretty sure determining your location via the signal strength of nearby cell towers is a feature of Location Services, so if you have that turned off you're fine.

oinkgrr 8y ago

Also mentioned here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-45183041 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-45183041

marssaxman 8y ago

It has always seemed likely to me that Google tracks more information than one might immediately suspect, so I try not to do anything which might make it convenient for them. With reference to location, I leave GPS turned off essentially all the time, and I never enter any Google account credentials into an Android phone. I don't know how much it helps, but it can't hurt.

spacenick88 8y ago

I guess I'm the only one here who actively turns Location History on. That way I do get the benefits like being able to exactly pin-point when I was where and I can make sure the data Google believes isn't wrong. Then if I don't want to be tracked I can just leave my phone at home and everything will look absolutely normal and no one is any wiser.

Lendal 8y ago

Am I the only person in the world that uses Timeline? I don't use Google's search but I do use Timeline frequently and find it useful enough that it's worth the risk. So I understand the difference between these different privacy settings, which AP is calling "an issue". It's not an "issue". People are freaking out like frightened mice and making it into something it's not. Fear is the motivator here, not facts. The ability to feed the Timeline app with location data is a separate thing from turning off all other apps' ability to use location data. Why is this so difficult for people to understand? I know the answer. Viral fear shuts off your brains' ability to think. I answered my own question.

amaccuish 8y ago
This is a typical engineer comment, completly removed from Joe user.

singularity2001 8y ago

«Google’s support page on the subject states: “You can turn off Location History at any time. With Location History off, the places you go are no longer stored.” That isn’t true.…» Can Google be sued for … lying?

bprasanna 8y ago

Google will say it is for better user experience, but we users know its a privacy breach. The same thing happened to me many times, without GPS switched on, without location history enabled, many times Google maps used to ask me to write a review about a place which i visited recently. Recently Google Drive asked for permission of using Wifi information. Why to ask permission just abuse it internally.