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> Mr. Russell stole a plane from the airport and flew it for about an hour before it crashed. (emphasis mine) Wonder why Air National Guard's scrambled F-15s [

> Mr. Russell stole a plane from the airport and flew it for about an hour before it crashed. (emphasis mine) Wonder why Air National Guard's scrambled F-15s [0] didn't engage and bring the plane down before the individual commandeering the prop -- Mr. Russell -- brought the aircraft down with himself in the Ketron Island. IIRC, the plane flew over several densely populated areas before going down, and I can imagine a thousand horrifically different ways this could have turned out. [0] https://www.military.com/daily-news/2018/08/11/f-15s-scrambled-after-sea-tac-airline-worker-takes-plane-spree-ends-crash.html https://www.military.com/daily-news/2018/08/11/f-15s-scrambl...

williamscales 8y ago
From what I've read, the tower personnel were in communication with the individual. Perhaps they believed they could talk him down. As far as shooting down the plane, I have no idea how possible that would have been without risking greater collateral damage. Perhaps it could have been done over the sound. But this incident comes to mind: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Palmdale https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Palmdale
- stevekemp 8y ago
  Very much so - the article had some audio embedded in it, but here is a longer version: http://garchives1.broadcastify.com/15227/20180810/201808102255-590200-15227.mp3 http://garchives1.broadcastify.com/15227/20180810/2018081022...
JanSolo 8y ago
Listen to the recording of ATC personnel talking to the rogue pilot. He's just a normal guy with a few screws loose. I think they correctly assessed this man to be non-threatening to ground targets. Now, if the guy was non-responsive or erratic or started making threats, I do expect that the F15s might have been used.
- remarkEon 8y ago
  The recordings are surreal. He was talking about how beautiful Mount Rainer was and how he was going to check out the Olympics. He even asked for the coordinates to that Orca pod up here that's been in the news lately. I immediately got the sense he wasn't a threat, at least not intentionally - just a guy a bit lost. (Yes obviously I know he was still a major threat regardless of if he meant to do any harm.)
  - sakopov 8y ago
    Very much surreal. He seemed very content considering his dire circumstances. Not to take away from the severity of his actions, but the fact that he completed what looked like a barrel roll w/o seemingly any prior flight experience is interesting to say the least.
    - SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
      Sounds like someone who had been contemplating suicide for a long time and was finally getting his wish. I've never felt that way myself but I can definitely see how it could be a huge relief.
- cm2187 8y ago
  Do you trust your hijackers to announce their intention to run into a building? In fact if a 9/11 ever happens again, the hijackers will have a pretty hard job convincing the passengers this is not a suicide mission and they shouldn't rebel. I always thought that is what prevented another 9/11, not confiscating baby milk at airport security checks.
  - creato 8y ago
    Listen to the ATC recording. It is obvious the guy was not an (intentional) threat and was apparently not near populated areas. I actually found the ATC recording to be quite moving and very sad. It's frustrating to read comments here assuming he was not shot down because everyone involved was just gullible. People entrusted to make good decisions did just that.
tschwimmer 8y ago
Armchair General warning: If you've seen the videos of the F-15s, you know that the stolen plane was definitely within engagement range [0]. It's pretty clear to me that the decision not to shoot down the plane was very intentional. I agree that a rogue plane over a densely populated area is a nightmare scenario, but also consider that debris from a shot down plane and/or an air-to-air missile over a populated area could be quite bad or worse. Couple this with the fact that the hijacker was communicating with ATC and showed no hostile intent, and it makes sense that the plane was not shot down. If I was in charge of this operation, I would have given the instruction not to shoot down the plane unless it started to make moves towards a populated area. [0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=HJld_TYTcAE https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=HJld_TYTcAE
paulcole 8y ago
> IIRC, the plane flew over several densely populated areas before going down Which one of these areas would’ve been the best to shoot him down over? I thought the fighter jets were to make sure he didn’t head into downtown Seattle?
lx3459683 8y ago
> I can imagine a thousand horrifically different ways this could have turned out Like what? It's a small prop plane with a tiny amount of fuel and mass. Stealing a truck is considerably easier and can be used to do considerably more damage. This 'hurr so scary we need to act' line of reasoning is why people have traded all their freedoms away in exchange for illusionary protection. The attack surface from a malicious actor is near infinite. Worry about the fact that your country's healthcare system kills hundreds of thousands of people every year by denying treatment, not about what a guy in a light aircraft could have done.
- yborg 8y ago
  The Bombardier Q400 can seat 80 people and weighs 40,000 lbs empty.
  - lx3459683 8y ago
    Which is about half of the weight of a loaded 18 wheeler.
    - geggam 8y ago
      Gravity has less of an impact on something already on the ground
      - nsomaru 8y ago
        Technically gravity has more of an impact on something already on the ground, r being smaller
        ReverseCold 8y ago
        I think he just means the object in the air has higher potential energy due to gravity.
    - refurb 8y ago
      It’s kind of hard to drive an 18 wheeler into the middle of a building at 600 mph. KE = m * v
ethbro 8y ago
Because aside from not being trained to fly an aircraft, the pilot didn't seem to have any murderous intent. Killing an American citizen who is not presenting an immediate threat still needs a higher bar than "It's easier." Thankfully, the military pilots stayed cool in a situation like this and waited until they received orders to fire.
- toyg 8y ago
  This. It’s like the situation with police shooting at people reaching for documents in the glovebox - presumption or fear should not be enough to deploy lethal force. Authorities should always strive to reach the best scenario, i.e. everyone safe and sound including perps. This is particularly true in situations where the perp shows clear signs of mental illness.
  - reddit_clone 8y ago
    I was watching a British TV Serial ("Scott and Bailey") recently, and was amazed at the level of professionalism expected from UK police officers (assuming it is a somewhat accurate representation of reality). One of the lead characters lands into serious, serious trouble when a drunk, fleeing suspect dies in a car crash. Makes me really sad about the 'shoot first' culture around here ..
nostrademons 8y ago
If you have a choice between knowingly killing a man (and perhaps several people on the gound) and waiting for him to likely crash on his own but possibly land the plane with no injuries, why would you choose the former? You can always fire on him later if it looks like he's going to be a danger to large populated areas, but if you fire on him now you know you're going to be a danger. Both TFA and your link indicate that ATC had him flying over Puget Sound, the Olympics, and other sparsely-populated areas, and had vectored all other traffic away from him. It's likely that when he flew over densely populated areas it was before the F-15s were scrambled. Watching and seeing how the situation plays out is probably their safest option in this case.
- prolikewh0a 8y ago
  He decided to fly around Mt. Ranier and then decided to head over to the Cascades to take in the beauty and "have a moment of serenity". ATC had no control, but tried to keep him within radio distance by telling him to turn away from the cascades. The full ~1hr of ATC audio supports this.
keypusher 8y ago
I would imagine there is set of criteria which would absolutely trigger the fighters to bring down the plane, but those were not met, and those in charge erred on the side of caution. Bringing it down aggressively would not be without its own risks, as the aircraft and debris are still going to crash down somewhere. Additionally it means taking the life of a citizen, and causing a lot of damage that the National Guard is then somewhat responsible for, and potential PR backlash. I believe it was clear early on in this case that the guy was not a terrorist, and he didn't intend to hurt anyone, so adopting a "wait and see" approach seems quite smart.
Rotdhizon 8y ago
And to think, even if they decided to take him down, it would have likely been over a populated area. Unless they disintegrated it with missiles while in the sky, it likely would have ended in a catastrophe. The decision to not take the plan out as soon as they had the chance to safely was interesting. Their lack of action could have resulted in the deaths of hundreds, if not thousands of people. Interestingly enough though, a lot of people aren't too mad at what he did. Quite a few people have paid their respects to this guy. He took the plane, saw some great views and did a barrel roll, then told the fighter pilot guys he was going to bring it down himself. I do like that most sources aren't trying to paint this guy as the devil. Sure what he did was wrong, but he sure did go out in style. Who else can ever say they did a freaking barrel roll in a commercial airliner. The way the news outlets handled this was sickening. They all hopped on the opportunity to make a headline that they knew damn well would lead people to believe a fully loaded plane was hijacked mid flight. Now the implications that a ground crew person was able to board a plan unnoticed, and take off is insane. This brings up the whole perspective of sleeper agents and inside jobs. Most data breaches are from insider threats, who's to say the next big thing isn't mass deaths resulting from insider threats. Nice to see this was down voted?
- poe876 8y ago
  9/11 was an inside job.
- userbinator 8y ago
  Unless they disintegrated it with missiles while in the sky, it likely would have ended in a catastrophe. And even then I imagine the raining shrapnel (likely burning too) would cause plenty of chaos itself. The outcome of this was probably near the best (the best being the guy managing to land the plane safely and survive) --- it could've been much much worse.
- rl3 8y ago
  >Who else can ever say they did a freaking barrel roll in a commercial airliner. Tex Johnston for one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaA7kPfC5Hk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaA7kPfC5Hk
stopnamingnuts 8y ago
Correct. Every neighborhood around SeaTac is densely populated.
vvanders 8y ago
My uninformed guess is that the F-15 were scrambled to intercept if the plane started heading towards Bangor, Bremerton shipyards or JBLM. Lots of military bases and critical infra up in the PNW, thankfully it didn't appear to be the case in this incident.
- subway 8y ago
  I'm not sure they were terribly worried about JBLM considering they were trying to talk him into landing there.
  - afterburner 8y ago
    They probably wouldn't have if he claimed to be a terrorist or didn't reply at all...
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
redthrowaway 8y ago
He didn't give any indication of being a danger to others. He was obviously someone who was dealing with a mental health crisis, while still being present and coherent. The ATCs were trying to talk him down and get him to land; shooting the plane down would have been a last resort, only ordered if he demonstrated he was going to do harm to others.

williamscales 8y ago

From what I've read, the tower personnel were in communication with the individual. Perhaps they believed they could talk him down. As far as shooting down the plane, I have no idea how possible that would have been without risking greater collateral damage. Perhaps it could have been done over the sound. But this incident comes to mind: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Palmdale https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Palmdale

stevekemp 8y ago
Very much so - the article had some audio embedded in it, but here is a longer version: http://garchives1.broadcastify.com/15227/20180810/201808102255-590200-15227.mp3 http://garchives1.broadcastify.com/15227/20180810/2018081022...

JanSolo 8y ago

Listen to the recording of ATC personnel talking to the rogue pilot. He's just a normal guy with a few screws loose. I think they correctly assessed this man to be non-threatening to ground targets. Now, if the guy was non-responsive or erratic or started making threats, I do expect that the F15s might have been used.

remarkEon 8y ago
The recordings are surreal. He was talking about how beautiful Mount Rainer was and how he was going to check out the Olympics. He even asked for the coordinates to that Orca pod up here that's been in the news lately. I immediately got the sense he wasn't a threat, at least not intentionally - just a guy a bit lost. (Yes obviously I know he was still a major threat regardless of if he meant to do any harm.)
- sakopov 8y ago
  Very much surreal. He seemed very content considering his dire circumstances. Not to take away from the severity of his actions, but the fact that he completed what looked like a barrel roll w/o seemingly any prior flight experience is interesting to say the least.
  - SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
    Sounds like someone who had been contemplating suicide for a long time and was finally getting his wish. I've never felt that way myself but I can definitely see how it could be a huge relief.
cm2187 8y ago
Do you trust your hijackers to announce their intention to run into a building? In fact if a 9/11 ever happens again, the hijackers will have a pretty hard job convincing the passengers this is not a suicide mission and they shouldn't rebel. I always thought that is what prevented another 9/11, not confiscating baby milk at airport security checks.
- creato 8y ago
  Listen to the ATC recording. It is obvious the guy was not an (intentional) threat and was apparently not near populated areas. I actually found the ATC recording to be quite moving and very sad. It's frustrating to read comments here assuming he was not shot down because everyone involved was just gullible. People entrusted to make good decisions did just that.

tschwimmer 8y ago

Armchair General warning: If you've seen the videos of the F-15s, you know that the stolen plane was definitely within engagement range [0]. It's pretty clear to me that the decision not to shoot down the plane was very intentional. I agree that a rogue plane over a densely populated area is a nightmare scenario, but also consider that debris from a shot down plane and/or an air-to-air missile over a populated area could be quite bad or worse. Couple this with the fact that the hijacker was communicating with ATC and showed no hostile intent, and it makes sense that the plane was not shot down. If I was in charge of this operation, I would have given the instruction not to shoot down the plane unless it started to make moves towards a populated area. [0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=HJld_TYTcAE https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=HJld_TYTcAE

paulcole 8y ago

> IIRC, the plane flew over several densely populated areas before going down Which one of these areas would’ve been the best to shoot him down over? I thought the fighter jets were to make sure he didn’t head into downtown Seattle?

lx3459683 8y ago

> I can imagine a thousand horrifically different ways this could have turned out Like what? It's a small prop plane with a tiny amount of fuel and mass. Stealing a truck is considerably easier and can be used to do considerably more damage. This 'hurr so scary we need to act' line of reasoning is why people have traded all their freedoms away in exchange for illusionary protection. The attack surface from a malicious actor is near infinite. Worry about the fact that your country's healthcare system kills hundreds of thousands of people every year by denying treatment, not about what a guy in a light aircraft could have done.

yborg 8y ago
The Bombardier Q400 can seat 80 people and weighs 40,000 lbs empty.
- lx3459683 8y ago
  Which is about half of the weight of a loaded 18 wheeler.
  - geggam 8y ago
    Gravity has less of an impact on something already on the ground
    - nsomaru 8y ago
      Technically gravity has more of an impact on something already on the ground, r being smaller
      - ReverseCold 8y ago
        I think he just means the object in the air has higher potential energy due to gravity.
  - refurb 8y ago
    It’s kind of hard to drive an 18 wheeler into the middle of a building at 600 mph. KE = m * v

ethbro 8y ago

Because aside from not being trained to fly an aircraft, the pilot didn't seem to have any murderous intent. Killing an American citizen who is not presenting an immediate threat still needs a higher bar than "It's easier." Thankfully, the military pilots stayed cool in a situation like this and waited until they received orders to fire.

toyg 8y ago
This. It’s like the situation with police shooting at people reaching for documents in the glovebox - presumption or fear should not be enough to deploy lethal force. Authorities should always strive to reach the best scenario, i.e. everyone safe and sound including perps. This is particularly true in situations where the perp shows clear signs of mental illness.
- reddit_clone 8y ago
  I was watching a British TV Serial ("Scott and Bailey") recently, and was amazed at the level of professionalism expected from UK police officers (assuming it is a somewhat accurate representation of reality). One of the lead characters lands into serious, serious trouble when a drunk, fleeing suspect dies in a car crash. Makes me really sad about the 'shoot first' culture around here ..

nostrademons 8y ago

If you have a choice between knowingly killing a man (and perhaps several people on the gound) and waiting for him to likely crash on his own but possibly land the plane with no injuries, why would you choose the former? You can always fire on him later if it looks like he's going to be a danger to large populated areas, but if you fire on him now you know you're going to be a danger. Both TFA and your link indicate that ATC had him flying over Puget Sound, the Olympics, and other sparsely-populated areas, and had vectored all other traffic away from him. It's likely that when he flew over densely populated areas it was before the F-15s were scrambled. Watching and seeing how the situation plays out is probably their safest option in this case.

prolikewh0a 8y ago
He decided to fly around Mt. Ranier and then decided to head over to the Cascades to take in the beauty and "have a moment of serenity". ATC had no control, but tried to keep him within radio distance by telling him to turn away from the cascades. The full ~1hr of ATC audio supports this.

keypusher 8y ago

I would imagine there is set of criteria which would absolutely trigger the fighters to bring down the plane, but those were not met, and those in charge erred on the side of caution. Bringing it down aggressively would not be without its own risks, as the aircraft and debris are still going to crash down somewhere. Additionally it means taking the life of a citizen, and causing a lot of damage that the National Guard is then somewhat responsible for, and potential PR backlash. I believe it was clear early on in this case that the guy was not a terrorist, and he didn't intend to hurt anyone, so adopting a "wait and see" approach seems quite smart.

Rotdhizon 8y ago

And to think, even if they decided to take him down, it would have likely been over a populated area. Unless they disintegrated it with missiles while in the sky, it likely would have ended in a catastrophe. The decision to not take the plan out as soon as they had the chance to safely was interesting. Their lack of action could have resulted in the deaths of hundreds, if not thousands of people. Interestingly enough though, a lot of people aren't too mad at what he did. Quite a few people have paid their respects to this guy. He took the plane, saw some great views and did a barrel roll, then told the fighter pilot guys he was going to bring it down himself. I do like that most sources aren't trying to paint this guy as the devil. Sure what he did was wrong, but he sure did go out in style. Who else can ever say they did a freaking barrel roll in a commercial airliner. The way the news outlets handled this was sickening. They all hopped on the opportunity to make a headline that they knew damn well would lead people to believe a fully loaded plane was hijacked mid flight. Now the implications that a ground crew person was able to board a plan unnoticed, and take off is insane. This brings up the whole perspective of sleeper agents and inside jobs. Most data breaches are from insider threats, who's to say the next big thing isn't mass deaths resulting from insider threats. Nice to see this was down voted?

poe876 8y ago
9/11 was an inside job.
userbinator 8y ago
Unless they disintegrated it with missiles while in the sky, it likely would have ended in a catastrophe. And even then I imagine the raining shrapnel (likely burning too) would cause plenty of chaos itself. The outcome of this was probably near the best (the best being the guy managing to land the plane safely and survive) --- it could've been much much worse.
rl3 8y ago
>Who else can ever say they did a freaking barrel roll in a commercial airliner. Tex Johnston for one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaA7kPfC5Hk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaA7kPfC5Hk

stopnamingnuts 8y ago

Correct. Every neighborhood around SeaTac is densely populated.

vvanders 8y ago

My uninformed guess is that the F-15 were scrambled to intercept if the plane started heading towards Bangor, Bremerton shipyards or JBLM. Lots of military bases and critical infra up in the PNW, thankfully it didn't appear to be the case in this incident.

subway 8y ago
I'm not sure they were terribly worried about JBLM considering they were trying to talk him into landing there.
- afterburner 8y ago
  They probably wouldn't have if he claimed to be a terrorist or didn't reply at all...

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

redthrowaway 8y ago

He didn't give any indication of being a danger to others. He was obviously someone who was dealing with a mental health crisis, while still being present and coherent. The ATCs were trying to talk him down and get him to land; shooting the plane down would have been a last resort, only ordered if he demonstrated he was going to do harm to others.