7 ms·

It's odd that China denies the existence of these things, because as of late, they usually do some logical jujitsu to validate their actions, whatever they are.

It's odd that China denies the existence of these things, because as of late, they usually do some logical jujitsu to validate their actions, whatever they are. To deny something that exists, and if there is open evidence that it does exists, really has to hurt one's own credibility. The treatment of Tibetans is no secret, the Chinese use the 'look how Americans treated Aboriginals in the 19th century' which is bizarre, but not worse than denial. Saudi Arabia is in a spat over human rights with Canada right now trying to indicate that Canada is a 'human rights abuser' given the number of homeless there. But to just 'deny deny deny' is bad in the era of the Internet. My bet is that average Chinese people could be propagandized into the line on Tibet, but if they find that there are 1M people in camps, and their government has been denying it, well, it just kills any credibility the government may have.

throwando208818 8y ago
"To deny something that exists, and if there is open evidence that it does exists, really has to hurt one's own credibility." --Careful with that thinking, you likely live/cameup in a somewhat free/democratic society If you talk to folks who have to live in say Russia/Putin-stan today when the government lies and everyone knows that the government knows that everyone knows they're lying it's actually a mechanism of intimidation and control. It really boils down to "we can get away with saying or doing whatever we want-- what are YOU going to do about it?" or "Your facts don't matter, your information doesn't matter, your data doesn't matter, your truth doesn't matter-- all that matters is power and we have the power and we're in charge." This strategy is a bit different from the casual/blatant general dishonesty of the current American president (it seems to be a bit of a personal tick rather than this kind of deliberate thinking) --- but it is absolutely a well-worn trick of nightmare authoritarian regimes. If you're not already familiar, check out these journalists: - julia ioffe - masha gessen If you want some provocative Chinese muck-raking, these sometimes be useful/interesting resources: - https://www.chinasmack.com/ https://www.chinasmack.com/ - http://www.chinauncensored.tv/ http://www.chinauncensored.tv/
dnomad 8y ago
> To deny something that exists, and if there is open evidence that it does exists, really has to hurt one's own credibility. What evidence? The UN says it has "credible reports." There's absolutely no information about the contents of these reports or where they came from -- only a blind assertion that they exist. Meanwhile China has always been transparent about what is happening in Xinjiang and makes little attempt to hide it. The public ceremonies and mandatory educational courses are public -- that's kinda the point. The only thing remarkable here is that after the Iraq War, after the endless propaganda effort against Iran (remember all the breathless reporting about Iran forcing non-Muslims to wear badges [1]?) so many people are still dumb enough to accept this sort of "reporting" without any verifiable, documentary evidence let alone actual first-hand witness accounts. [1] https://www.haaretz.com/1.4907670 https://www.haaretz.com/1.4907670
- tdb7893 8y ago
  Maybe it's just late and I'm too tired but you mentioned the UN saying it had a report but your link talks about a Canadian newspaper issuing a correction in 2006, am I missing how they are related?
Leary 8y ago
It doesn't deny it: http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1109761.shtml http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1109761.shtml
- throwando208818 8y ago
  Please read the first sentence of that article: "Region in Northwest China relocated 461,000 poverty-ridden residents to work in other parts of the region during the first quarter of the year, in what a Chinese expert on Friday said was a bid to improve social stability and alleviate poverty." Slighhhtly different spin on why it is being done, what's being done, etc That's English-language content for a foreign audience
- astebbin 8y ago
  The takeaway quote from your link: "Authorities in the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region in Northwest China relocated 461,000 poverty-ridden residents to work in other parts of the region during the first quarter of the year, in what a Chinese expert on Friday said was a bid to improve social stability and alleviate poverty." How kind of the government to forcibly separate families and relocate Uighurs to camps where there culture is eradicated, all in the name of poverty alleviation. Here is another quote, with a link to a longer, more detailed article from a less-biased source (the Global Times is run by the Chinese Communist Party): "Asked to comment on the camps, China’s Foreign Ministry said it “had not heard” of the situation." https://apnews.com/6e151296fb194f85ba69a8babd972e4b https://apnews.com/6e151296fb194f85ba69a8babd972e4b
  - Leary 8y ago
    Sure the global times is biased and run by the CCP, but linking it shows that the CPP does not deny such camps.
    - astebbin 8y ago
      It denies them in kind, in intent, and in scope and scale. “Six million Jews have been relocated by the German government for the purpose of poverty reduction.”
mstaoru 8y ago
An average Chinese Joe's line of thinking is: look at the West, 9/11, London, Paris. We don't have a single bombing! These religious people are aggressive and bad! If it makes the country stable and harmonious, the government HAS to be strong! No joking. Source: live in China for 10+ years.
- intended 8y ago
  To be honest, that line of thinking has takers in all countries today, it’s just that democracies have people who can vote against it.
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  I was sitting by a young Chinese man, about 18 years old, attending a private school in Cali, he lived there with his mom, he was on his way to China to visit his father. I asked him about 'state media control' and he said "well, you know, someone could just, you know, get a knife and start stabbing people!" which was his justification for all the control. I asked him, while we waiting for CalTrain ... 'do you feel safe right now?' he said 'sure'. The paradox is uncanny.
  - pishpash 8y ago
    That's because there had been religiously motivated knife attacks at the Kunming train station in 2014, and much worse in Xinjiang in 2008-2009. Not saying that's right, but people's minds change, as they would for 9/11.
  - anonu 8y ago
    Generally speaking, people become defensive about their home country. For an American, it is strange to see people want to come to the USA, benefit from the economy, educational institutions, etc... Yet, if you bring up anything about the poor state of human rights or democracy in their home country they will naturally become 1. defensive and 2. bring up some form of "whatabout" argument against the USA.
    - sonnyblarney 8y ago
68c12c16 8y ago
I feel the human rights issue in Tibet could be more complicated than you think...For instance, there was an article from the Guardian describes some aspects of the old traditional system in Tibet before the Chinese government took control of the region in 1950s [1], Some extreme cruelties were practiced in Tibet before 1950, including mutilation as punishment and using human body parts for constructing religious instruments. The latter is documented in an article published in 1923 [2]. -- [1] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/feb/10/tibet-china-feudalism https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/feb/10/tibet-... [2] https://library.uoregon.edu/ec/e-asia/read/skulls.pdf https://library.uoregon.edu/ec/e-asia/read/skulls.pdf
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago
  A lot of that was just the standard "we communists will liberate you from serfdom" spiel that they applied to the rest of China as well. Tibet was no paradise in 1950, but it was about the same as the rest of China before the communists took over, which wasn't a pretty place (allowing the communists to take over in the first place!).
  - 68c12c16 8y ago
    I am not trying to justify the current situation in Tibet...I am just saying it is a complicated matter...and I agree that lots of things need to be improved there -- and I honestly do not know exactly how... The commuism is an umbrella term, that covers many great details...I personally don't like the totalitarian way of ruling by almost all existing or past communist governments...But I do think the social collaboration and universal fraternity among all human beings are good things -- but those aspects seems to have certain totalitarianism in themselves as well...so I honestly do not know a good solution about this too...
    - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
      The victors write the history to justify their actions, whether it is true or not, or even reasonable. To say that the PLA wanted to justify the L in its name is an understatement. And to muddy that further, it isn't unreasonable to think that the PLA's invasion of Tibet was simply territorial in nature and had nothing to do with the condition of its people (like the Siege of Changchun that wound up killing more people than they liberated). But this is all par for the course for the human history of conflict!
Grue3 8y ago
Worked for Putin. "We don't have military in Crimea". "We didn't shoot down that plane". "We don't have military in Donbass".
jimmydoe 8y ago
It’s not a secret in China, the gov created enough islamophobia so that even every single Chinese knows, most won’t give a fuss; denying it is just a cheap way to avoid talking about it in public internationally.
anonu 8y ago
> The treatment of Tibetans is no secret, the Chinese use the 'look how Americans treated Aboriginals in the 19th century' which is bizarre, but not worse than denial. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

throwando208818 8y ago

"To deny something that exists, and if there is open evidence that it does exists, really has to hurt one's own credibility." --Careful with that thinking, you likely live/cameup in a somewhat free/democratic society If you talk to folks who have to live in say Russia/Putin-stan today when the government lies and everyone knows that the government knows that everyone knows they're lying it's actually a mechanism of intimidation and control. It really boils down to "we can get away with saying or doing whatever we want-- what are YOU going to do about it?" or "Your facts don't matter, your information doesn't matter, your data doesn't matter, your truth doesn't matter-- all that matters is power and we have the power and we're in charge." This strategy is a bit different from the casual/blatant general dishonesty of the current American president (it seems to be a bit of a personal tick rather than this kind of deliberate thinking) --- but it is absolutely a well-worn trick of nightmare authoritarian regimes. If you're not already familiar, check out these journalists: - julia ioffe - masha gessen If you want some provocative Chinese muck-raking, these sometimes be useful/interesting resources: - https://www.chinasmack.com/ https://www.chinasmack.com/ - http://www.chinauncensored.tv/ http://www.chinauncensored.tv/

dnomad 8y ago

> To deny something that exists, and if there is open evidence that it does exists, really has to hurt one's own credibility. What evidence? The UN says it has "credible reports." There's absolutely no information about the contents of these reports or where they came from -- only a blind assertion that they exist. Meanwhile China has always been transparent about what is happening in Xinjiang and makes little attempt to hide it. The public ceremonies and mandatory educational courses are public -- that's kinda the point. The only thing remarkable here is that after the Iraq War, after the endless propaganda effort against Iran (remember all the breathless reporting about Iran forcing non-Muslims to wear badges [1]?) so many people are still dumb enough to accept this sort of "reporting" without any verifiable, documentary evidence let alone actual first-hand witness accounts. [1] https://www.haaretz.com/1.4907670 https://www.haaretz.com/1.4907670

tdb7893 8y ago
Maybe it's just late and I'm too tired but you mentioned the UN saying it had a report but your link talks about a Canadian newspaper issuing a correction in 2006, am I missing how they are related?

Leary 8y ago

It doesn't deny it: http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1109761.shtml http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1109761.shtml

throwando208818 8y ago
Please read the first sentence of that article: "Region in Northwest China relocated 461,000 poverty-ridden residents to work in other parts of the region during the first quarter of the year, in what a Chinese expert on Friday said was a bid to improve social stability and alleviate poverty." Slighhhtly different spin on why it is being done, what's being done, etc That's English-language content for a foreign audience
astebbin 8y ago
The takeaway quote from your link: "Authorities in the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region in Northwest China relocated 461,000 poverty-ridden residents to work in other parts of the region during the first quarter of the year, in what a Chinese expert on Friday said was a bid to improve social stability and alleviate poverty." How kind of the government to forcibly separate families and relocate Uighurs to camps where there culture is eradicated, all in the name of poverty alleviation. Here is another quote, with a link to a longer, more detailed article from a less-biased source (the Global Times is run by the Chinese Communist Party): "Asked to comment on the camps, China’s Foreign Ministry said it “had not heard” of the situation." https://apnews.com/6e151296fb194f85ba69a8babd972e4b https://apnews.com/6e151296fb194f85ba69a8babd972e4b
- Leary 8y ago
  Sure the global times is biased and run by the CCP, but linking it shows that the CPP does not deny such camps.
  - astebbin 8y ago
    It denies them in kind, in intent, and in scope and scale. “Six million Jews have been relocated by the German government for the purpose of poverty reduction.”

mstaoru 8y ago

An average Chinese Joe's line of thinking is: look at the West, 9/11, London, Paris. We don't have a single bombing! These religious people are aggressive and bad! If it makes the country stable and harmonious, the government HAS to be strong! No joking. Source: live in China for 10+ years.

intended 8y ago
To be honest, that line of thinking has takers in all countries today, it’s just that democracies have people who can vote against it.
sonnyblarney 8y ago
I was sitting by a young Chinese man, about 18 years old, attending a private school in Cali, he lived there with his mom, he was on his way to China to visit his father. I asked him about 'state media control' and he said "well, you know, someone could just, you know, get a knife and start stabbing people!" which was his justification for all the control. I asked him, while we waiting for CalTrain ... 'do you feel safe right now?' he said 'sure'. The paradox is uncanny.
- pishpash 8y ago
  That's because there had been religiously motivated knife attacks at the Kunming train station in 2014, and much worse in Xinjiang in 2008-2009. Not saying that's right, but people's minds change, as they would for 9/11.
- anonu 8y ago
  Generally speaking, people become defensive about their home country. For an American, it is strange to see people want to come to the USA, benefit from the economy, educational institutions, etc... Yet, if you bring up anything about the poor state of human rights or democracy in their home country they will naturally become 1. defensive and 2. bring up some form of "whatabout" argument against the USA.
  - sonnyblarney 8y ago

68c12c16 8y ago

I feel the human rights issue in Tibet could be more complicated than you think...For instance, there was an article from the Guardian describes some aspects of the old traditional system in Tibet before the Chinese government took control of the region in 1950s [1], Some extreme cruelties were practiced in Tibet before 1950, including mutilation as punishment and using human body parts for constructing religious instruments. The latter is documented in an article published in 1923 [2]. -- [1] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/feb/10/tibet-china-feudalism https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/feb/10/tibet-... [2] https://library.uoregon.edu/ec/e-asia/read/skulls.pdf https://library.uoregon.edu/ec/e-asia/read/skulls.pdf

seanmcdirmid 8y ago
A lot of that was just the standard "we communists will liberate you from serfdom" spiel that they applied to the rest of China as well. Tibet was no paradise in 1950, but it was about the same as the rest of China before the communists took over, which wasn't a pretty place (allowing the communists to take over in the first place!).
- 68c12c16 8y ago
  I am not trying to justify the current situation in Tibet...I am just saying it is a complicated matter...and I agree that lots of things need to be improved there -- and I honestly do not know exactly how... The commuism is an umbrella term, that covers many great details...I personally don't like the totalitarian way of ruling by almost all existing or past communist governments...But I do think the social collaboration and universal fraternity among all human beings are good things -- but those aspects seems to have certain totalitarianism in themselves as well...so I honestly do not know a good solution about this too...
  - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
    The victors write the history to justify their actions, whether it is true or not, or even reasonable. To say that the PLA wanted to justify the L in its name is an understatement. And to muddy that further, it isn't unreasonable to think that the PLA's invasion of Tibet was simply territorial in nature and had nothing to do with the condition of its people (like the Siege of Changchun that wound up killing more people than they liberated). But this is all par for the course for the human history of conflict!

Grue3 8y ago

Worked for Putin. "We don't have military in Crimea". "We didn't shoot down that plane". "We don't have military in Donbass".

jimmydoe 8y ago

It’s not a secret in China, the gov created enough islamophobia so that even every single Chinese knows, most won’t give a fuss; denying it is just a cheap way to avoid talking about it in public internationally.

anonu 8y ago

> The treatment of Tibetans is no secret, the Chinese use the 'look how Americans treated Aboriginals in the 19th century' which is bizarre, but not worse than denial. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism