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While still shocking, life in Brazil isn't the kinda Aleppo like bloodshed this article portrays. Majority of victims are young male gang members sucked into th

by mavdi 8y ago

While still shocking, life in Brazil isn't the kinda Aleppo like bloodshed this article portrays. Majority of victims are young male gang members sucked into the drug turf wars.

lbrito 8y ago
More or less. But Brazil is, for example, the world's largest armored (bulletproof) car market. I could name a large amount of social and cultural effects of this low-intensity war we have going on.
joe_the_user 8y ago
The majority of deaths in the war in Syria have also been combatants with only being minority civilians, a substantial minority certainly but I suspect there's a reasonable minority of "civilians" killed in Brazilian drug wars. This 63K killed/year figure seems to exceed some years of the Syrian civil war. Brazil is a larger country but the drug war is concentrated in a minority of the country. The one thing you're not getting is bombed out apartment buildings and mass population displacements. Edit: I mean, "not Aleppo like" is true for some interpretation of the phrase but one certainly shouldn't view this a "no reason to worry if you haven't consciously entered the drug trade" or something. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Syrian_Civil_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Syrian_Civil...
- lostlogin 8y ago
  Thanks for that. I was sceptical and went for a dig. In most conflicts the civilian to combatant death ratio is high, with numbers like 9:1 cited. This is probably over estimated but having a civilian toll lower than combatant is unusual. As far as I can tell Syria has a toll of about 3.5 combatants to each civilian. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio
  - joe_the_user 8y ago
    Indeed, as your link essentially states, civilian to combatant casualty rates are complex. As your link notes, high ratios like 9:1 have only been documented in a few campaigns. After WWI, "total warfare" targeting the entire population and productive capacity of the enemy in a mechanized fashion seemed like the logical direction in which war would go. The reality has been somewhat different, with guerrilla warfare and other asymmetrical approaches making political dimensions important also, where on the one hand avoiding unneeded deaths is often a useful political strategy and on the other hand, if the enemy is essentially hardened guerrillas with rocket launchers hiding in caves and supported from outside, that enemy may not be sensitive to the mass destruction of the population and productive capacity of the area. Both these situation make "total war" a less effective strategy (witness the different casualty ratios of the first and second Chechen wars).
    - dragonwriter 8y ago
      > After WWI, "total warfare" targeting the entire population and productive capacity of the enemy in a mechanized fashion seemed like the logical direction in which war would go. The reality has been somewhat different Not all that different, in the subsequent direct conflicts with full investment by same-tier powers on both sides. But you don't have many of those with major powers since then, WWII being the main one. > making political dimensions important also, The political dimension is always paramount even in total war; breaking the will to fight of the enemy population is the point of total war.
coliveira 8y ago
Correct, and this happens because Brazil is one of the most disgustingly unequal countries in the world. There was a small pause during the leftist governments when there was a noted improvement in social support for the poor, but the recent events have brought even that to an end. The current government is not only corrupt but is completely anti-people. Their plan is to cut the little existing social net, destroy public education, and put everyone who complains under military surveillance.
- slig 8y ago
  > Their plan is to cut the little existing social net, destroy public education, and put everyone who complains under military surveillance. Can you give sources for that affirmations?
  - joe_the_user 8y ago
    Just googling: Brazil: Social services cuts ahead of 2016 Rio Olympics - Amnesty International: https://www.amnesty.org.au/brazil-social-services-cut-olympics/ https://www.amnesty.org.au/brazil-social-services-cut-olympi... Brazil’s Government Cuts Social Programs to Subsidize Fuel: http://riotimesonline.com/brazil-news/rio-business/brazils-government-cuts-social-programs-to-subsidize-fuel/ http://riotimesonline.com/brazil-news/rio-business/brazils-g... Brazil Cuts 5 Million People from Its Popular Social Program Bolsa Família http://brazzil.com/brazil-cuts-5-million-people-from-its-popular-social-program-bolsa-familia/ http://brazzil.com/brazil-cuts-5-million-people-from-its-pop... http://brazzil.com/brazil-cuts-5-million-people-from-its-popular-social-program-bolsa-familia/ http://brazzil.com/brazil-cuts-5-million-people-from-its-pop... The article mentioned police killings already being part of the problem. It's common to claim one solve the murder problem by unleashing the police but it is generally documented that police enmeshed in the drug trade and allowing more ex-judicial police murders will just make cops that commonly used enforcers for various drug gangs (a pattern also seen in Mexico where the army was then "leashed" to fight local cops and drug lords, and with no actual reigning in of corruption, you can expect army segments fighting each).
  - epx 8y ago
    He cannot because it is not true. Even the leftists (the true-blue ones) admit that left leaning governments have dropped the ball big time regarding security. As other comments already clarified, 90% of the problem is drug-related, the correct fix would be the decriminalization of them.

by mavdi 8y ago

While still shocking, life in Brazil isn't the kinda Aleppo like bloodshed this article portrays. Majority of victims are young male gang members sucked into the drug turf wars.

lbrito 8y ago

More or less. But Brazil is, for example, the world's largest armored (bulletproof) car market. I could name a large amount of social and cultural effects of this low-intensity war we have going on.

joe_the_user 8y ago

The majority of deaths in the war in Syria have also been combatants with only being minority civilians, a substantial minority certainly but I suspect there's a reasonable minority of "civilians" killed in Brazilian drug wars. This 63K killed/year figure seems to exceed some years of the Syrian civil war. Brazil is a larger country but the drug war is concentrated in a minority of the country. The one thing you're not getting is bombed out apartment buildings and mass population displacements. Edit: I mean, "not Aleppo like" is true for some interpretation of the phrase but one certainly shouldn't view this a "no reason to worry if you haven't consciously entered the drug trade" or something. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Syrian_Civil_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Syrian_Civil...

lostlogin 8y ago
Thanks for that. I was sceptical and went for a dig. In most conflicts the civilian to combatant death ratio is high, with numbers like 9:1 cited. This is probably over estimated but having a civilian toll lower than combatant is unusual. As far as I can tell Syria has a toll of about 3.5 combatants to each civilian. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio
- joe_the_user 8y ago
  Indeed, as your link essentially states, civilian to combatant casualty rates are complex. As your link notes, high ratios like 9:1 have only been documented in a few campaigns. After WWI, "total warfare" targeting the entire population and productive capacity of the enemy in a mechanized fashion seemed like the logical direction in which war would go. The reality has been somewhat different, with guerrilla warfare and other asymmetrical approaches making political dimensions important also, where on the one hand avoiding unneeded deaths is often a useful political strategy and on the other hand, if the enemy is essentially hardened guerrillas with rocket launchers hiding in caves and supported from outside, that enemy may not be sensitive to the mass destruction of the population and productive capacity of the area. Both these situation make "total war" a less effective strategy (witness the different casualty ratios of the first and second Chechen wars).
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    > After WWI, "total warfare" targeting the entire population and productive capacity of the enemy in a mechanized fashion seemed like the logical direction in which war would go. The reality has been somewhat different Not all that different, in the subsequent direct conflicts with full investment by same-tier powers on both sides. But you don't have many of those with major powers since then, WWII being the main one. > making political dimensions important also, The political dimension is always paramount even in total war; breaking the will to fight of the enemy population is the point of total war.

coliveira 8y ago

Correct, and this happens because Brazil is one of the most disgustingly unequal countries in the world. There was a small pause during the leftist governments when there was a noted improvement in social support for the poor, but the recent events have brought even that to an end. The current government is not only corrupt but is completely anti-people. Their plan is to cut the little existing social net, destroy public education, and put everyone who complains under military surveillance.

slig 8y ago
> Their plan is to cut the little existing social net, destroy public education, and put everyone who complains under military surveillance. Can you give sources for that affirmations?
- joe_the_user 8y ago
  Just googling: Brazil: Social services cuts ahead of 2016 Rio Olympics - Amnesty International: https://www.amnesty.org.au/brazil-social-services-cut-olympics/ https://www.amnesty.org.au/brazil-social-services-cut-olympi... Brazil’s Government Cuts Social Programs to Subsidize Fuel: http://riotimesonline.com/brazil-news/rio-business/brazils-government-cuts-social-programs-to-subsidize-fuel/ http://riotimesonline.com/brazil-news/rio-business/brazils-g... Brazil Cuts 5 Million People from Its Popular Social Program Bolsa Família http://brazzil.com/brazil-cuts-5-million-people-from-its-popular-social-program-bolsa-familia/ http://brazzil.com/brazil-cuts-5-million-people-from-its-pop... http://brazzil.com/brazil-cuts-5-million-people-from-its-popular-social-program-bolsa-familia/ http://brazzil.com/brazil-cuts-5-million-people-from-its-pop... The article mentioned police killings already being part of the problem. It's common to claim one solve the murder problem by unleashing the police but it is generally documented that police enmeshed in the drug trade and allowing more ex-judicial police murders will just make cops that commonly used enforcers for various drug gangs (a pattern also seen in Mexico where the army was then "leashed" to fight local cops and drug lords, and with no actual reigning in of corruption, you can expect army segments fighting each).
- epx 8y ago
  He cannot because it is not true. Even the leftists (the true-blue ones) admit that left leaning governments have dropped the ball big time regarding security. As other comments already clarified, 90% of the problem is drug-related, the correct fix would be the decriminalization of them.