4 ms·

> A U.N. human rights panel said on Friday that it had received many credible reports that 1 million ethnic Uighurs in China are held in what resembles a “massi

by 394549 8y ago

> A U.N. human rights panel said on Friday that it had received many credible reports that 1 million ethnic Uighurs in China are held in what resembles a “massive internment camp that is shrouded in secrecy”. > Gay McDougall, a member of the U.N. Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination, cited estimates that another 2 million Uighurs and Muslim minorities are forced into so-called “political camps for indoctrination”. One million in a single camp? Is that right? I always got the impression that the camps were smaller and more distributed. If true, someone needs to publish the coordinates of the camp, there's no way such a thing could be hidden from satellites.

oh_sigh 8y ago
A million people probably have at least 10x more relatives and friends on the outside. Ways of breaching the great firewall are well known even within China. Shouldn't there be...numerous reports of missing persons if this is the case?
- 394549 8y ago
  > A million people probably have at least 10x more relatives and friends on the outside. Ways of breaching the great firewall are well known even within China. Shouldn't there be...numerous reports of missing persons if this is the case? There are numerous reports of missing persons: Former inmates of China’s Muslim ‘reeducation’ camps tell of brainwashing, torture (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/former-inmates-of-chinas-muslim-re-education-camps-tell-of-brainwashing-torture/2018/05/16/32b330e8-5850-11e8-8b92-45fdd7aaef3c_story.html?noredirect=on https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/former-inm...) ‘We’re a people destroyed’: why Uighur Muslims across China are living in fear (https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/aug/07/why-uighur-muslims-across-china-are-living-in-fear https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/aug/07/why-uighur-musl...) After U.S.-Based Reporters Exposed Abuses, China Seized Their Relatives (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/01/world/asia/china-xinjiang-rfa.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/01/world/asia/china-xinjiang...) Especially consider this account: China’s mass indoctrination camps evoke Cultural Revolution (https://apnews.com/6e151296fb194f85ba69a8babd972e4b https://apnews.com/6e151296fb194f85ba69a8babd972e4b): > At first, Bekali did not want the AP to publish his account for fear that his sister and mother in China would be detained and sent to re-education. > But on March 10, back in China, the police took his sister, Adila Bekali. A week later, on March 19, they took his mother, Amina Sadik. And on April 24, his father, Ebrayem. > Bekali changed his mind and said he wanted to tell his story, no matter the consequences. > “Things have already come this far,” he said. “I have nothing left to lose.”
- Analemma_ 8y ago
  The situation in Xinjiang is different than in China proper: it's so poor and remote that there isn't a lot of internet access to begin with, and the state security apparatus is much more intense. Foreign journalists aren't even allowed in Xinjiang at all. Repressing news like this is probably well within the abilities of the government there.
- anoncoward111 8y ago
  That's what I was thinking too. Westerners visit Xinjiang province with cameras. If 1m people disappeared, I'm sure someone would come up to a Westerner to tell their story. 40,000 people were disappeared en masse in Chile by Pinochet. That story made it out very quickly, and only a few photographs exist of it
  - 394549 8y ago
    > That's what I was thinking too. Westerners visit Xinjiang province with cameras. If 1m people disappeared, I'm sure someone would come up to a Westerner to tell their story. China isn't a western country, and I don't think you can count on being granted western-levels of freedom of movement there, especially in "sensitive" areas. For instance, I understand you need a special permit to visit Tibet, which is another province with similar ethnic tensions. The level of surveillance in Xinjiang is so intense that the locals will often get questioned by the police about contacts with foreigners (e.g. getting a phone or skype call from abroad). The locals probably aren't eager to talk to foreigners about sensitive topics because they fear reprisal. China also has special visas for journalists, and something tells me that that they'll deny the application if your itinerary includes areas where they don't want people poking around. If you're applying for a tourist visa, in some cases (like if you work for a newspaper) it's advised that you promise that you'll not engage in journalism during your trip. I'm guessing the Chinese will interpret a bunch of foreigners poking around sensitive areas with cameras as people practicing unauthorized journalism, put a stop to it, and maybe even deport those people for visa violations.
    - oh_sigh 8y ago
      I was in Tibet in 2007 and a lot of locals came up and talked to me, asking America to do something about the Chinese occupation of Tibet. Our hired driver had no problem showing us his picture of the Dalai Lama(which was(still is?) illegal to possess).
      - 394549 8y ago
        > I was in Tibet in 2007 and a lot of locals came up and talked to me, asking America to do something about the Chinese occupation of Tibet. Our hired driver had no problem showing us his picture of the Dalai Lama(which was(still is?) illegal to possess). 2007 was a different era, a lot has changed politically in the meantime. I posted this elsewhere in the thread, but maybe you didn't see it: China’s mass indoctrination camps evoke Cultural Revolution (https://apnews.com/6e151296fb194f85ba69a8babd972e4b https://apnews.com/6e151296fb194f85ba69a8babd972e4b): > At first, Bekali did not want the AP to publish his account for fear that his sister and mother in China would be detained and sent to re-education. > But on March 10, back in China, the police took his sister, Adila Bekali. A week later, on March 19, they took his mother, Amina Sadik. And on April 24, his father, Ebrayem. > Bekali changed his mind and said he wanted to tell his story, no matter the consequences. > “Things have already come this far,” he said. “I have nothing left to lose.”
- vatueil 8y ago
  Reports, such as the ones gathered in the posted link? There have been many other articles about Uighurs in Xianxing, too. The Economist covered the latest reports a few months ago, which was discussed on HN: * https://www.economist.com/briefing/2018/05/31/china-has-turned-xinjiang-into-a-police-state-like-no-other https://www.economist.com/briefing/2018/05/31/china-has-turn... * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17215966 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17215966 This is not a surprise, if you've been paying attention to the CCP's ham-handed attempts to handle Uighurs and to a lesser degree Muslims in general, but rather something that has been building up for years.
  - oh_sigh 8y ago
    No, because the posted link doesn't provide any numbers of reports. What does it say? > The allegations came from multiple sources, including activist group Chinese Human Rights Defenders, which said in a report last month that 21 percent of all arrests recorded in China in 2017 were in Xinjiang. I was thinking multiple orders of magnitude more reports if there really were 2 million missing people. Like, thousands of reports from disparate people. I'm not saying this didn't happen, because I have no special knowledge - all I'm saying is that if 2 million people disappeared from somewhere, I would imagine there would be no shortage of reports on it happening all over the place, and not that the reports would be routed through a few human rights groups.
    - vatueil 8y ago
      Would it be better if there were only 500k Uighurs interned for political reasons, one of the more moderate estimates cited? I ask because I notice you went from 1 million in your original comment to 2 million in your reply. Where do you expect to hear these reports, if not from human rights organizations? On Chinese censored social media or state news? It's not like the prisoners are on Twitter and Facebook. Reading the reports, it's hard even for dedicated journalists and investigators to convince people to open up. Do you expect families of the victims to be less afraid to speak to tourists? The articles linked in the comments in this thread provide numerous personal reports, if the statistics used to arrive at the estimates of people detained are too impersonal for your liking. EDIT: Another report: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/new-evidence-emerges-that-china-is-forcing-muslims-into-reeducation-camps/2018/08/10/1d6d2f64-8dce-11e8-9b0d-749fb254bc3d_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/new-eviden...
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > A million people probably have at least 10x more relatives and friends on the outside. An ethnically targeted detention would very likely involve entire family and social circles. > Ways of breaching the great firewall are well known even within China. Shouldn't there be...numerous reports of missing persons if this is the case? Retribution against those piercing the firewall with politically inconvenient information to the regime are also known, even inside of China; oppressive control of information is not just a technical issue. Plus, there are reports. That's the whole issue.
hrktb 8y ago
It’s hard to have a sense of scale at these numbers. This camp would be the size of a pretty big town. Bigger than Boston or Antwerp for instance.
- rgbrenner 8y ago
  no, not bigger than boston or antwerp. The rohinga camp has 1m people: https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/5a259aa13dbef48d0e8b9c95-750-743.png https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/5a259aa13dbef48d0e8b9... Edit: I've updated the image to a more recent one.
  - abrowne 8y ago
    1M is bigger than Boston proper, but not the metro area (looks like close to 5M).
    - rgbrenner 8y ago
      I interpreted as land area.. since the thread is about "hiding it from satellites". The rohinga camp in the picture is only about 3 miles x 2 miles.
rgbrenner 8y ago
It's not a single camp.. because a few months ago, there was a story about contracts for running these camps across the country: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/15/opinion/china-re-education-camps.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/15/opinion/china-re-educatio...
- iamshs 8y ago
  Also follow this feed from Shawn Zheng from UBC, incredible research done by him at a personal peril. Scale of these camp is an atrocity in itself. https://medium.com/@shawnwzhang/list-of-re-education-camps-in-xinjiang-新疆再教育集中营列表-99720372419c https://medium.com/@shawnwzhang/list-of-re-education-camps-i...

by 394549 8y ago

oh_sigh 8y ago

A million people probably have at least 10x more relatives and friends on the outside. Ways of breaching the great firewall are well known even within China. Shouldn't there be...numerous reports of missing persons if this is the case?

394549 8y ago
> A million people probably have at least 10x more relatives and friends on the outside. Ways of breaching the great firewall are well known even within China. Shouldn't there be...numerous reports of missing persons if this is the case? There are numerous reports of missing persons: Former inmates of China’s Muslim ‘reeducation’ camps tell of brainwashing, torture (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/former-inmates-of-chinas-muslim-re-education-camps-tell-of-brainwashing-torture/2018/05/16/32b330e8-5850-11e8-8b92-45fdd7aaef3c_story.html?noredirect=on https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/former-inm...) ‘We’re a people destroyed’: why Uighur Muslims across China are living in fear (https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/aug/07/why-uighur-muslims-across-china-are-living-in-fear https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/aug/07/why-uighur-musl...) After U.S.-Based Reporters Exposed Abuses, China Seized Their Relatives (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/01/world/asia/china-xinjiang-rfa.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/01/world/asia/china-xinjiang...) Especially consider this account: China’s mass indoctrination camps evoke Cultural Revolution (https://apnews.com/6e151296fb194f85ba69a8babd972e4b https://apnews.com/6e151296fb194f85ba69a8babd972e4b): > At first, Bekali did not want the AP to publish his account for fear that his sister and mother in China would be detained and sent to re-education. > But on March 10, back in China, the police took his sister, Adila Bekali. A week later, on March 19, they took his mother, Amina Sadik. And on April 24, his father, Ebrayem. > Bekali changed his mind and said he wanted to tell his story, no matter the consequences. > “Things have already come this far,” he said. “I have nothing left to lose.”
Analemma_ 8y ago
The situation in Xinjiang is different than in China proper: it's so poor and remote that there isn't a lot of internet access to begin with, and the state security apparatus is much more intense. Foreign journalists aren't even allowed in Xinjiang at all. Repressing news like this is probably well within the abilities of the government there.
anoncoward111 8y ago
That's what I was thinking too. Westerners visit Xinjiang province with cameras. If 1m people disappeared, I'm sure someone would come up to a Westerner to tell their story. 40,000 people were disappeared en masse in Chile by Pinochet. That story made it out very quickly, and only a few photographs exist of it
- 394549 8y ago
  > That's what I was thinking too. Westerners visit Xinjiang province with cameras. If 1m people disappeared, I'm sure someone would come up to a Westerner to tell their story. China isn't a western country, and I don't think you can count on being granted western-levels of freedom of movement there, especially in "sensitive" areas. For instance, I understand you need a special permit to visit Tibet, which is another province with similar ethnic tensions. The level of surveillance in Xinjiang is so intense that the locals will often get questioned by the police about contacts with foreigners (e.g. getting a phone or skype call from abroad). The locals probably aren't eager to talk to foreigners about sensitive topics because they fear reprisal. China also has special visas for journalists, and something tells me that that they'll deny the application if your itinerary includes areas where they don't want people poking around. If you're applying for a tourist visa, in some cases (like if you work for a newspaper) it's advised that you promise that you'll not engage in journalism during your trip. I'm guessing the Chinese will interpret a bunch of foreigners poking around sensitive areas with cameras as people practicing unauthorized journalism, put a stop to it, and maybe even deport those people for visa violations.
  - oh_sigh 8y ago
    I was in Tibet in 2007 and a lot of locals came up and talked to me, asking America to do something about the Chinese occupation of Tibet. Our hired driver had no problem showing us his picture of the Dalai Lama(which was(still is?) illegal to possess).
    - 394549 8y ago
      > I was in Tibet in 2007 and a lot of locals came up and talked to me, asking America to do something about the Chinese occupation of Tibet. Our hired driver had no problem showing us his picture of the Dalai Lama(which was(still is?) illegal to possess). 2007 was a different era, a lot has changed politically in the meantime. I posted this elsewhere in the thread, but maybe you didn't see it: China’s mass indoctrination camps evoke Cultural Revolution (https://apnews.com/6e151296fb194f85ba69a8babd972e4b https://apnews.com/6e151296fb194f85ba69a8babd972e4b): > At first, Bekali did not want the AP to publish his account for fear that his sister and mother in China would be detained and sent to re-education. > But on March 10, back in China, the police took his sister, Adila Bekali. A week later, on March 19, they took his mother, Amina Sadik. And on April 24, his father, Ebrayem. > Bekali changed his mind and said he wanted to tell his story, no matter the consequences. > “Things have already come this far,” he said. “I have nothing left to lose.”
vatueil 8y ago
Reports, such as the ones gathered in the posted link? There have been many other articles about Uighurs in Xianxing, too. The Economist covered the latest reports a few months ago, which was discussed on HN: * https://www.economist.com/briefing/2018/05/31/china-has-turned-xinjiang-into-a-police-state-like-no-other https://www.economist.com/briefing/2018/05/31/china-has-turn... * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17215966 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17215966 This is not a surprise, if you've been paying attention to the CCP's ham-handed attempts to handle Uighurs and to a lesser degree Muslims in general, but rather something that has been building up for years.
- oh_sigh 8y ago
  No, because the posted link doesn't provide any numbers of reports. What does it say? > The allegations came from multiple sources, including activist group Chinese Human Rights Defenders, which said in a report last month that 21 percent of all arrests recorded in China in 2017 were in Xinjiang. I was thinking multiple orders of magnitude more reports if there really were 2 million missing people. Like, thousands of reports from disparate people. I'm not saying this didn't happen, because I have no special knowledge - all I'm saying is that if 2 million people disappeared from somewhere, I would imagine there would be no shortage of reports on it happening all over the place, and not that the reports would be routed through a few human rights groups.
  - vatueil 8y ago
    Would it be better if there were only 500k Uighurs interned for political reasons, one of the more moderate estimates cited? I ask because I notice you went from 1 million in your original comment to 2 million in your reply. Where do you expect to hear these reports, if not from human rights organizations? On Chinese censored social media or state news? It's not like the prisoners are on Twitter and Facebook. Reading the reports, it's hard even for dedicated journalists and investigators to convince people to open up. Do you expect families of the victims to be less afraid to speak to tourists? The articles linked in the comments in this thread provide numerous personal reports, if the statistics used to arrive at the estimates of people detained are too impersonal for your liking. EDIT: Another report: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/new-evidence-emerges-that-china-is-forcing-muslims-into-reeducation-camps/2018/08/10/1d6d2f64-8dce-11e8-9b0d-749fb254bc3d_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/new-eviden...
dragonwriter 8y ago
> A million people probably have at least 10x more relatives and friends on the outside. An ethnically targeted detention would very likely involve entire family and social circles. > Ways of breaching the great firewall are well known even within China. Shouldn't there be...numerous reports of missing persons if this is the case? Retribution against those piercing the firewall with politically inconvenient information to the regime are also known, even inside of China; oppressive control of information is not just a technical issue. Plus, there are reports. That's the whole issue.

hrktb 8y ago

It’s hard to have a sense of scale at these numbers. This camp would be the size of a pretty big town. Bigger than Boston or Antwerp for instance.

rgbrenner 8y ago
no, not bigger than boston or antwerp. The rohinga camp has 1m people: https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/5a259aa13dbef48d0e8b9c95-750-743.png https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/5a259aa13dbef48d0e8b9... Edit: I've updated the image to a more recent one.
- abrowne 8y ago
  1M is bigger than Boston proper, but not the metro area (looks like close to 5M).
  - rgbrenner 8y ago
    I interpreted as land area.. since the thread is about "hiding it from satellites". The rohinga camp in the picture is only about 3 miles x 2 miles.

rgbrenner 8y ago

It's not a single camp.. because a few months ago, there was a story about contracts for running these camps across the country: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/15/opinion/china-re-education-camps.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/15/opinion/china-re-educatio...

iamshs 8y ago
Also follow this feed from Shawn Zheng from UBC, incredible research done by him at a personal peril. Scale of these camp is an atrocity in itself. https://medium.com/@shawnwzhang/list-of-re-education-camps-in-xinjiang-新疆再教育集中营列表-99720372419c https://medium.com/@shawnwzhang/list-of-re-education-camps-i...