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Cyclists usually have a strong pride in commuting with bike and has a style (looking fast) that separates them from the rest of the population. Combine that wi

Cyclists usually have a strong pride in commuting with bike and has a style (looking fast) that separates them from the rest of the population. Combine that with the number of conflict surfaces such as pedestrians walking in biking lanes, car drivers failing to properly look for incoming cyclists, cyclists speeding and more frequently breaking traffic law and order than others (my anecdata). I understand the frustration that exists in all groups.

zerebubuth 8y ago
I wonder if part of the problem might be a natural tendency to generalise bad behaviour of a small number onto the whole group? For example, I might see several instances of individual cyclists running red lights and generalise that to "all cyclists run red lights". Or see several instances of individual motorists "dooring" cyclists and generalise that to "all motorists are dangerously inconsiderate". It's probably easy to go from that generalisation to an overt dislike of the other group. Therefore, I try to force myself to attribute bad behaviour to the individual rather than any groups they might be a member of.
- Arainach 8y ago
  Part of it is that it's a necessary mindset. When cycling, you have to assume that every driver is trying to kill you and every parked car is waiting to throw a door open and knock you off (and possibly kill you). Even where malicious intent is lacking, distracted driving is such a pervasive problem that you have to adopt a mindset of "everyone else is awful"....because statistically speaking, enough of them really are.
  - zerebubuth 8y ago
    I think there's a big difference between "everyone else is awful", "there's statistically enough awful individuals" and "every driver is trying to kill me". Only the last one of those is going to lead me to incorrectly blame a whole group. I agree that a statistically significant subset of drivers cause problems (and a statistically significant subset of cyclists, too), but the vast majority of individual drivers (and cyclists) are safe and do not deserve to be grouped in with the the problem-causers.
    - Arainach 8y ago
      They have to be grouped in, as there's no way to differentiate them. Also, you're proposing a false equivalence. When drivers cause problems, other people (pedestrians, cyclists, other drivers) die. When cyclists cause problems, they're usually the only ones that get hurt. The urgency of the two problems is dramatically different.
- marcandre 8y ago
  I really wish "a bike running a red light" wasn't seen as such a problem. In many places, pedestrian cross on red lights also. In other places, cars can turn right on red lights. In at least one state, bikes can use red lights as stop signs, and stop signs as yield signs. It is easy run a red light on a bike (or as a pedestrian) in a safe manner, but it often isn't in a car.
tonyedgecombe 8y ago
more frequently breaking traffic law I can't find it right now but there was some research done in the UK recently that showed the opposite was the case.
- robinwassen 8y ago
  Might be so statistically, but people do not experience statistics and build their perspective from it. Emotionally seeing someone running a red light or making up their own lane has a higher impact than someone speeding in a car lane. I think it has to do with cultural acceptance.
- rogual 8y ago
  Surprising. In London at least, when you cross at a crossing, you always have to check for cyclists skipping the lights.
  - InitialLastName 8y ago
    Sure, but what % of the drivers habitually go faster than the listed speed limit? In the parts of the US I live in, the difference between that number and 100 is imperceptible, especially on the roads with speed limits on the lower end (~25 mph).
  - pja 8y ago
    IIRC the two road users tended to break the rules in different ways, so it's unsurprising that as a pedestrians you might be more aware of one class than the other.
  - twak 8y ago
    a counter point: when cycling in London you have to be aware that 30% of the time there will be be a vehicle stopped the protected bike zone in front of the lights...
  - Symbiote 8y ago
    When I'm in London, I check that the first car is going to stop at the crossing. That's by no means guaranteed. Once the first car is stopped, the others have no choice. All cyclists reaching the crossing can pass on red if they choose, so the comparison needs to take that into account.
stefan_ 8y ago
Cyclists speeding? I hope your car is set to a maximum of 20 mph or you might as well join that FB group.
- germinalphrase 8y ago
  We have some shared bike/pedestrian paths that twist and turn through a nice wooded area. The paths have a very well marked 10 mph speed limit; however, there is a certain kind of cyclist that can’t be bothered to slow down and whip through these paths at top speed. 10 mph isn’t all that fast, are these cyclists clearly speeding and putting pedestrians at risk. Perhaps this is somewhat like what the other commenter insoeaking about.
- robinwassen 8y ago
  They might not be able to break the law enforced speed limit. My definition of speeding is that they go at a speed that is reckless for the situation.

zerebubuth 8y ago

I wonder if part of the problem might be a natural tendency to generalise bad behaviour of a small number onto the whole group? For example, I might see several instances of individual cyclists running red lights and generalise that to "all cyclists run red lights". Or see several instances of individual motorists "dooring" cyclists and generalise that to "all motorists are dangerously inconsiderate". It's probably easy to go from that generalisation to an overt dislike of the other group. Therefore, I try to force myself to attribute bad behaviour to the individual rather than any groups they might be a member of.

Arainach 8y ago
Part of it is that it's a necessary mindset. When cycling, you have to assume that every driver is trying to kill you and every parked car is waiting to throw a door open and knock you off (and possibly kill you). Even where malicious intent is lacking, distracted driving is such a pervasive problem that you have to adopt a mindset of "everyone else is awful"....because statistically speaking, enough of them really are.
- zerebubuth 8y ago
  I think there's a big difference between "everyone else is awful", "there's statistically enough awful individuals" and "every driver is trying to kill me". Only the last one of those is going to lead me to incorrectly blame a whole group. I agree that a statistically significant subset of drivers cause problems (and a statistically significant subset of cyclists, too), but the vast majority of individual drivers (and cyclists) are safe and do not deserve to be grouped in with the the problem-causers.
  - Arainach 8y ago
    They have to be grouped in, as there's no way to differentiate them. Also, you're proposing a false equivalence. When drivers cause problems, other people (pedestrians, cyclists, other drivers) die. When cyclists cause problems, they're usually the only ones that get hurt. The urgency of the two problems is dramatically different.
marcandre 8y ago
I really wish "a bike running a red light" wasn't seen as such a problem. In many places, pedestrian cross on red lights also. In other places, cars can turn right on red lights. In at least one state, bikes can use red lights as stop signs, and stop signs as yield signs. It is easy run a red light on a bike (or as a pedestrian) in a safe manner, but it often isn't in a car.

tonyedgecombe 8y ago

more frequently breaking traffic law I can't find it right now but there was some research done in the UK recently that showed the opposite was the case.

robinwassen 8y ago
Might be so statistically, but people do not experience statistics and build their perspective from it. Emotionally seeing someone running a red light or making up their own lane has a higher impact than someone speeding in a car lane. I think it has to do with cultural acceptance.
rogual 8y ago
Surprising. In London at least, when you cross at a crossing, you always have to check for cyclists skipping the lights.
- InitialLastName 8y ago
  Sure, but what % of the drivers habitually go faster than the listed speed limit? In the parts of the US I live in, the difference between that number and 100 is imperceptible, especially on the roads with speed limits on the lower end (~25 mph).
- pja 8y ago
  IIRC the two road users tended to break the rules in different ways, so it's unsurprising that as a pedestrians you might be more aware of one class than the other.
- twak 8y ago
  a counter point: when cycling in London you have to be aware that 30% of the time there will be be a vehicle stopped the protected bike zone in front of the lights...
- Symbiote 8y ago
  When I'm in London, I check that the first car is going to stop at the crossing. That's by no means guaranteed. Once the first car is stopped, the others have no choice. All cyclists reaching the crossing can pass on red if they choose, so the comparison needs to take that into account.

stefan_ 8y ago

Cyclists speeding? I hope your car is set to a maximum of 20 mph or you might as well join that FB group.

germinalphrase 8y ago
We have some shared bike/pedestrian paths that twist and turn through a nice wooded area. The paths have a very well marked 10 mph speed limit; however, there is a certain kind of cyclist that can’t be bothered to slow down and whip through these paths at top speed. 10 mph isn’t all that fast, are these cyclists clearly speeding and putting pedestrians at risk. Perhaps this is somewhat like what the other commenter insoeaking about.
robinwassen 8y ago
They might not be able to break the law enforced speed limit. My definition of speeding is that they go at a speed that is reckless for the situation.