4 ms·

> but bad ideas are forced to spread in hidden places without refute then bad ideas are the only ones getting any voice and they win by default. They win by de

> but bad ideas are forced to spread in hidden places without refute then bad ideas are the only ones getting any voice and they win by default. They win by default in those dark places. Important distinction.

autoexec 8y ago
The people in those dark places the ones you have to worry about. Most people don't hold dangerously wrong ideologies like neo-nazis do. What amount of rhetoric or marches or speeches would convince you to be a nazi? If you are like most people no amount ever would. The most vulnerable out there are the ones who find themselves isolated. Those who end up in the dark places or are simply raised in them from childhood. They can be reached, but not if they never hear a dissenting voice or have an opportunity to have the views they were taught challenged.
- jackvalentine 8y ago
  Nazis in dark spaces have always existed - their modern grasp of distribution on internet platforms is what has changed. For years stormfront was a well known butt of jokes about racists, but it existed. What has changed is nazis have started using the new distributive platforms (youtube, facebook, twitter etc) to spread their word outside of the dark space. All we need to do, is deny them that distribution. Motivated racists will still find their stormfront but they'll stop achieving the bycatch of people who didn't have the skills/motivation to seek out other racists on the internet. Without distribution their views are repugnant but largely ineffective.
  - autoexec 8y ago
    How many videos would you need to watch on youtube before it turned you into a nazi? The people watching those videos are already true believers, or they are researchers, police, and others concerned about what racists are saying, how many of them there are, how they operate, etc. It's invaluable to have ready access to what they're up to. Access that would be lost if they were forced into their own closed circles away from public view. Now someday one of the racists on youtube might see a reaction video in the sidebar and they click it expecting "librul tears" but end up leaving with something to think about. Youtube videos aren't usually how racists find reform, but every little thing that chips away at the lies they've been told helps. If they were forced to watch their racist videos on a racist only video site they'd never have a chance to see anything else. In every last story of a racist who changed I've ever heard, the thing that turned things around for them was something breaking through that racist's echo chamber. Forcing racists further into their own isolated groups is the opposite of fighting racism.
    - jackvalentine 8y ago
      > The people watching those videos are already true believers No they're not. The YouTube algorithm (for example) encourages people to slowly ramp up how extreme the content they view is little by little. https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/03/youtube-extremism-and-the-long-tail/555350/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/03/youtube... > but every little thing that chips away at the lies they've been told helps. You're assuming they even see this content. The way "the algorithm" works makes it increasingly unlikely that platforms will even show you things that oppose your view. And if they do... the backfire effect means they'll often reject your opposing view even harder. https://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/06/10/the-backfire-effect/ https://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/06/10/the-backfire-effect/
      - autoexec 8y ago
        It is true that the algorithm does work against them, but it isn't a perfect bubble. I'm sure every racist on youtube had that same casting an obsidian sword video recommended to them I've been seeing. I spent a couple months looking into the alt right a couple years ago and I saw it for myself. The algorithm is just going by what gets the clicks so when a major topic comes along it's not too uncommon to see different sides pop up as long as they are on the same subject. The backfire effect is real, but it's obviously not impossible for a person to change their views on something. Even something somewhat fundamental. It can take a long time for a person to come around and they need to come to terms with the truth on their own but it can be overcome. Even the things they don't accept today will be in the back of their mind when they come across something similar in the future. It's not easy to make that kind of change, but people do it all the time.
      - api 8y ago
        I don't think you could show me enough inane neo-Nazi videos to make me a Nazi. Insane, ready to gouge my eyes out with an egg beater... maybe... but conversion is not likely.
        jackvalentine 8y ago
- pjc50 8y ago
  > What amount of rhetoric or marches or speeches would convince you to be a nazi? There's a historical answer to this and it's found in the number of people who were convinced to join and vote for the Nazis in 1930s Germany. They were very good at propaganda.

autoexec 8y ago

The people in those dark places the ones you have to worry about. Most people don't hold dangerously wrong ideologies like neo-nazis do. What amount of rhetoric or marches or speeches would convince you to be a nazi? If you are like most people no amount ever would. The most vulnerable out there are the ones who find themselves isolated. Those who end up in the dark places or are simply raised in them from childhood. They can be reached, but not if they never hear a dissenting voice or have an opportunity to have the views they were taught challenged.

jackvalentine 8y ago
Nazis in dark spaces have always existed - their modern grasp of distribution on internet platforms is what has changed. For years stormfront was a well known butt of jokes about racists, but it existed. What has changed is nazis have started using the new distributive platforms (youtube, facebook, twitter etc) to spread their word outside of the dark space. All we need to do, is deny them that distribution. Motivated racists will still find their stormfront but they'll stop achieving the bycatch of people who didn't have the skills/motivation to seek out other racists on the internet. Without distribution their views are repugnant but largely ineffective.
- autoexec 8y ago
  How many videos would you need to watch on youtube before it turned you into a nazi? The people watching those videos are already true believers, or they are researchers, police, and others concerned about what racists are saying, how many of them there are, how they operate, etc. It's invaluable to have ready access to what they're up to. Access that would be lost if they were forced into their own closed circles away from public view. Now someday one of the racists on youtube might see a reaction video in the sidebar and they click it expecting "librul tears" but end up leaving with something to think about. Youtube videos aren't usually how racists find reform, but every little thing that chips away at the lies they've been told helps. If they were forced to watch their racist videos on a racist only video site they'd never have a chance to see anything else. In every last story of a racist who changed I've ever heard, the thing that turned things around for them was something breaking through that racist's echo chamber. Forcing racists further into their own isolated groups is the opposite of fighting racism.
  - jackvalentine 8y ago
    > The people watching those videos are already true believers No they're not. The YouTube algorithm (for example) encourages people to slowly ramp up how extreme the content they view is little by little. https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/03/youtube-extremism-and-the-long-tail/555350/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/03/youtube... > but every little thing that chips away at the lies they've been told helps. You're assuming they even see this content. The way "the algorithm" works makes it increasingly unlikely that platforms will even show you things that oppose your view. And if they do... the backfire effect means they'll often reject your opposing view even harder. https://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/06/10/the-backfire-effect/ https://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/06/10/the-backfire-effect/
    - autoexec 8y ago
      It is true that the algorithm does work against them, but it isn't a perfect bubble. I'm sure every racist on youtube had that same casting an obsidian sword video recommended to them I've been seeing. I spent a couple months looking into the alt right a couple years ago and I saw it for myself. The algorithm is just going by what gets the clicks so when a major topic comes along it's not too uncommon to see different sides pop up as long as they are on the same subject. The backfire effect is real, but it's obviously not impossible for a person to change their views on something. Even something somewhat fundamental. It can take a long time for a person to come around and they need to come to terms with the truth on their own but it can be overcome. Even the things they don't accept today will be in the back of their mind when they come across something similar in the future. It's not easy to make that kind of change, but people do it all the time.
    - api 8y ago
      I don't think you could show me enough inane neo-Nazi videos to make me a Nazi. Insane, ready to gouge my eyes out with an egg beater... maybe... but conversion is not likely.
      - jackvalentine 8y ago
pjc50 8y ago
> What amount of rhetoric or marches or speeches would convince you to be a nazi? There's a historical answer to this and it's found in the number of people who were convinced to join and vote for the Nazis in 1930s Germany. They were very good at propaganda.