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I used to fix cars for a living. Sometimes it involved “cracking” alarm & immobiliser systems. My clients all claimed they broke/lost their keys to their car -

I used to fix cars for a living. Sometimes it involved “cracking” alarm & immobiliser systems. My clients all claimed they broke/lost their keys to their car - most of the time they were believable (car stuck in front of their driveway, etc). Sometimes less so, but I’d do it anyway because I needed the money and I had no proof of the contrary (innocent until proven guilty right?), although given the sad conditions of the cars I really doubt anyone would bother stealing them. Car security is based on obscurity. There is very little cryptography involved (if any), and where there is, the car’s “computers” would happily install new, untrusted firmware through the diagnostics (OBD) port, which means you can do pretty much anything - program new keys, disable the immobiliser or alarm completely (by installing patched firmware) or even rewind the odometer. I’m frankly surprised it took this long for “high tech” car theft to appear, unless it’s been going on for a while but executed perfectly so nobody would find a trace. Happy to answer any questions if anyone’s curious.

kccqzy 8y ago
Have you taken a look at a Tesla car yet? From PR materials I'm led to believe that they treat their car software seriously. I doubt one can install untrusted firmware on a Tesla car; is that so?
- Rjevski 8y ago
  I’ve never worked on a Tesla. I’ve left the trade long ago finding my way in software engineering instead. Tesla is probably the only one I’d trust though. While I don’t expect them to be bulletproof either (at least not at first), I expect them to quickly catch on should this kind of theft appear, and make the necessary fixes. In any case I doubt they’d be stupid enough to accept arbitrary code over a diagnostics port (if they have one even). I mean, even if we forget security, why would they? Teslas update remotely via the Internet.
  - FredFS456 8y ago
    I believe Telsas have a minimal OBD-II port (where mandated by law) but mostly use an Ethernet port for debugging/service.
  - StudentStuff 8y ago
    Teslas have been stolen in Europe, their high value for parts makes them well worth stealing. This is primarily Tesla's fault, as they refuse to sell parts to cars that have been in accidents. Your Tesla is essentially scrap after a non-minor accident, which is why most US insurers refuse to cover vehicles made by Tesla. Its as bad as rolling coal IMO, Tesla has created a massive eWaste problem. Meanwhile, rebuilding any other manufacturers car is doable, even other EVs. Source: https://electrek.co/2018/07/31/tesla-theft-tips-help-prevent-relay-attacks/ https://electrek.co/2018/07/31/tesla-theft-tips-help-prevent...
    - todd8 8y ago
      Relay attacks like those mentioned that Teslas are vulnerable to can also affect most other keyless entry cars. On new Mercedes one can turn off the keyless entry system by double klicking the lock button on the key when locking the car. The car key then will have to have its unlock button physically pushed to unlock the car, and in that state relay attacks won’t work.
      - bjelkeman-again 8y ago
        One can turn it off on a Tesla Model S/X the same way. On the Model 3 it is a different system so not sure how that works.
- acct1771 8y ago
  Stripping or modding a Tesla would be the only way I'd get one...and I'd really like to. Very interested in what happens in this thread.
  - voidmain0001 8y ago
    A Motherboard article appeared on HN about a rogue Tesla mechanic. Here is his channel to help you get started: https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCfV0_wbjG8KJADuZT2ct4SA# https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCfV0_wbjG8KJADuZT2ct4SA#
    - DenTheRed 8y ago
      That Tesla powered Audi RS5 is an amazing hack! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOYY_AlRWQA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOYY_AlRWQA
    - acct1771 8y ago
      Thanks very much!
  - chriscappuccio 8y ago
    Search IAAI and Copart auctions
j88439h84 8y ago
Seems like that's all you can ask for if the attacker has physical access to the machine. Would be happy to be corrected though.
- Rjevski 8y ago
  Not sure I agree. It’s one thing if you get physical access, replace the engine control module by a crooked one that will send the proper signals to the ignition and all the other actuators and start the car. It’s another thing if you talk to the real engine control module (which should already be on alert because the car was broken into) and tell it “trust me, I’m legit, here’s your new firmware” and the computer just runs your code no questions asked.
  - jinzo 8y ago
    But on the other hand, on modern cars that is not nearly enough to get the car started. As OP pointed out, Simos18 was quite conveniently hacked, but that's far from the only ecu family. And usually they aren't hacked as easly/quickly. For example, all that Simos18 "easy" hacking can be done once you have IGN ON, if you have IGN ON it's probably easier to just code a new set of keys, than it is to flash new FW on all related and needed computers.
bri3d 8y ago
Even more modern cars with "protection" (usually against tuning, not theft) use obvious, simple-to-reverse algorithms. For example, the Simos18 ECUs used in modern VWs use flash files encrypted with AES128. Except, they share the same key and IV across all ECUs on the platform, and the key and IV are stored in plaintext in the "upgrade" routines in the flash ROM. So once you've dumped one ECU's flash memory, you own them all. This wouldn't be that hard for car manufacturers to defeat if they really cared. It's the exact same trusted-boot problem as any mobile phone faces, except (so far) with much more limited attack resources. It's devilishly hard to get perfect (as every iPhone jailbreak proves) but it's easy to get started.
- Rjevski 8y ago
  Seems like an easy problem to solve - every ECU generates its own encryption/signing key at first boot and dumps it over the serial port, which then gets recorded somewhere. This is eventually passed down to the car’s owner in the documentation, and the key needs to be presented before any firmware upgrade or configuration change. This isn’t bulletproof either, but surely more than “hey I’m legit, here’s your new firmware, could you install and run it please?”. Also I’m surprised they’d go after tuners, considering those are usually the most loyal customers you could dream of.
  - barrkel 8y ago
    Witness Intel's unlocked CPUs: people who want access to the low-level stuff get charged a premium.
  - bri3d 8y ago
    Yes, like I alluded to it's trivial drawing from any other trusted boot chain implementation. The even better and less user-intensive way to do it would be with asymmetric encryption - the ECU only trusts flashes signed with the vendor public key and to make things even more secure, you could encrypt each flash file server side with a keypair derived each boot on the ECU and sent over the Internet (many manufacturers require online flashing anyway). Manufacturers dislike tuners because they make warranty claims for tune damaged parts like blown turbos. VW especially are very, very aggressive about detection and enforcement around this. Long term I think giving a few dishonest tuned customers free turbos is probably fine but they seem to disagree and I assume they have access to the metrics driving this decision (which I don't).
tlrobinson 8y ago
"Sometimes less so, but I’d do it anyway because I needed the money and I had no proof of the contrary (innocent until proven guilty right?)." Huh, is it legal to "crack" alarms/immobilizers without proof of ownership, especially if you suspect it might be stolen?
- mygo 8y ago
  anyone can call a mobile locksmith and ask them to help them get into their locked car stuck in the KFC parking lot with their keys inside. It’s usually up to the locksmith to obtain proof of ownership. otherwise they’re running the risk of committing a break-in. they usually have you sign something beforehand that tries to mitigate their liability. however I’ve used some shady locksmiths who just pulled up in the passenger seat of their friend’s ride and did it without a contract and took cash. at least they didn’t scratch my car.
  - Rjevski 8y ago
    In my case they always had the keys, it was purely the electronics side that was failing. In fact I explicitly remember one idiot who manually broke the transponder chip inside the key in half (no idea what they were attempting to do - replace the battery?). I can’t tell for sure that all the clients were legit, but those ones were so stupid they had to be legit! I took cash as well, because I was under 18 and couldn’t legally run a business at that time (but still needed to eat and buy drinks every weekend, and family couldn’t afford it).
- Rjevski 8y ago
  Not sure, but given the shitty cars I’ve worked on, I wouldn’t care even if they were stolen - nobody would call the police for such things - if anything they’d be glad someone took them away for free! I would probably feel differently if I got called to work on a supercar but that didn’t happen.
outworlder 8y ago
> program new keys Yeah. We bought an old Elantra which only came with a single key and no FOB. I bought a cheap gizmo on Amazon that you plug to the OBD port and allows you to program other FOBs. Modern-ish cars are computers. Once you have physical access, all bets are off.
- jinzo 8y ago
  On the other side, MY2015 Audi A3 8V needs online access for remote re-sync (sometimes the RF part of the key looses sync with the car). So yes, generally older cars are easy to modify, newer not (at least yet). Also the cheap gismo was cheap because it was a clone, original tools are not that cheap.
  - tpxl 8y ago
    You need to connect your car to the internet?
    - ollie87 8y ago
      It's likely the car has it's own always-on cellular connection.
      - tpxl 8y ago
        Yeah, this is what I meant, but that sounds insane to me.
        Rjevski 8y ago
        It is probably retrieving the "SKC" code which is necessary to program keys. However, this is by no means secure where the car's ECU will happily dump its entire storage (including the SKC code) over the diagnostics port if you ask nicely.
        jinzo 8y ago
vbezhenar 8y ago
In Russia and, I guess, similar countries, it's quite rare to encounter a car which isn't protected by an external protection system (not sure how it's called in English, in Russian it's usually called "Сигнализация") which includes shock sensors, alarm system, remote control and car block which protects some vital engine circuits. There are systems with dialog protocol between remote control and car with actual encryption inside, so it might be not so trivial to break it. In practice such cars are either stolen inside trucks or an entire system is by-passed by a separate automobile computer connected directly to necessary engine sensors, ignition coils, etc. Quite clever technique, you don't need to bypass protected electronics if you can bring and connect your own electronics.
- Yizahi 8y ago
  In Russia and ex-USSR in general cars are very often stolen disregarding any car alarm installed and whatever GPS trackers are inside, even rental cars with multiple trackers and a live feed to someone monitoring them. The reason - they only need a few hours to get to their base of operations where car is dismantled in to parts and then sold separately, often under protection by local law enforcement. And people can't do much - yes, you can see sudden appearance of your car parts on the used parts market, same color, same tuning etc. but you can't prove anything, and all part numbers would be destroyed during dismantle.
- taneq 8y ago
  > not sure how it's called in English "Immobiliser", usually. :)
  - Rjevski 8y ago
    "Сигнализация" would be more akin to alarm.
- GFischer 8y ago
  I used to work for an insurance company and I got an entertaining presentation from a 3rd party that showed how ingenious thieves went around car block, special keys, etc, by bringing in the entire front panel of the car (thieves had one for each common model they wanted to steal). "Casual" thieves are finding it harder though, it's more organized mafia in concert with dismantlers (as mentioned on a sibling comment).
King-Aaron 8y ago
I just unclip my steering wheel, and pull out my main relay (dash mounted, race car spec). I don't think the car is going very far without those.
- Zhenya 8y ago
  It'll go damn far - on a flatbed.
  - King-Aaron 8y ago
    haha! Yeah, but by the time you're involving a flatbed in your thieving, I don't know if any car security is going to be much good :P
    - Cthulhu_ 8y ago
      I like to think high tech cars can detect when they're being towed and will activate their tracking system and ping the emergency call center. Of course, all bets are off when it's loaded into an RF shielded truck. It could have an onboard camera to record the number plate of the truck, but that could be shielded. Long story short, you're probably better off parking it in a firmly locked / secured garage, and have a wheel clamp or chain attached to something solid.
      - King-Aaron 8y ago
        > I like to think high tech cars can detect when they're being towed and will activate their tracking system and ping the emergency call center. My GPS tracker does do this in my daily car, but it only sets it off if the rest of the alarm is triggered (i.e. if the door sensor registers it opening while the alarm is set). With the race car, it generally gets locked up. Although if I'm out in the town or something with it someone could possibly take off with it if they short-circuit the relay, and use something to clamp on the steering column (when the wheel is detached). But honestly, if someone stole the car like that they'd probably be found a few hundred yards up the road wrapped around a tree and on fire, after hitting boost with no steering wheel.
donkeyd 8y ago
> unless it’s been going on for a while but executed perfectly so nobody would find a trace My boss's car was stolen in broad daylight in front of a client's warehouse. This isn't a busy area, but it isn't extremely quiet either. The car had GPS tracking, but it disappeared without a trace. The police guessed that it was driven into the back of a closed truck and straight away transported to Eastern Europe.
- gitgud 8y ago
  Incredible, was there ctv footage? Reading things like this makes me realise how easy it is to steal things still. Much like the old days when people could exchange fake cheques at banks for cash... Most of the world is still built on trust.
  - donkeyd 8y ago
    I asked about it at a later time, but after a certain time, the car ownership officially gets transferred to the insurance company, so any updates from the police would go to them unfortunately. From what I heard, however, police wasn't planning on spending too much time on this, because these types of cases never really result in much. Unless this becomes part of a major investigation into similar cases, it'll be dead in the water. > makes me realise how easy it is to steal things still So yeah, you're right about this. Statistics actually seem to show that low impact, organized crime pays in the Netherlands [1], since police is too busy with high impact cases. High impact often being being defined as burglaries, robberies, rape, etc. that have long-term impact on the victims well-being. [1](Dutch) https://www.bndestem.nl/overig/cbs-misdaad-loont-in-nederland~ada8dd6e/ https://www.bndestem.nl/overig/cbs-misdaad-loont-in-nederlan...
  - donkeyd 8y ago
    > makes me realise how easy it is to steal things still I just found this through Reddit and had to think of your comment: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colton_Harris_Moore https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colton_Harris_Moore
- tomaskafka 8y ago
blattimwind 8y ago
> I’m frankly surprised it took this long for “high tech” car theft to appear, unless it’s been going on for a while New, expensive cars are stolen or broken into quite often. When broken into, they'll often rip out the infotainment, with high end cars this can be a five-figure repair.
inferiorhuman 8y ago
> There is very little cryptography involved Wha? That may have been true about twenty years ago, but not now. BMW was using 256-bit RSA keys to validate ECU firmware and authenticate privileged access in the early 2000s (they're up to 1024-bit keys now) and write-once memory in their instrument clusters for about as long. Other (Euro) car makers using the same vendors offer similar features. Once you have physical access all bets are off though. That's why the thieves cut the alarm sensors.
- Tobba_ 8y ago
  Why the hell does RSA ever get used anymore, esp. in smartcards etc? It's been obsolete for like 10 years thanks to ECC, and ECC is way easier to implement (esp. 127-bit and 521-bit).
  - rocqua 8y ago
    RSA has value in encryption which ECC can't do. Beyond that, RSA is so much easier to understand and implement. Because computing powers of numbers is easier than computing multiples of points on a curve.
smsm42 8y ago
Years ago, I had a car with a sophisticated ignition lock system (not my choice, but not relevant to the story). It was somewhat finicky, and creating a new key was not easy. And of course no chance of starting it without proper key! That car ended up stolen right from under my nose (I was within 100 feet of it, indoors but would hear if the alarm turned on) and the only thing I found in there when I came back for it was the sophisticated security system. The thieves just ripped it out in no time and with no sound, and drove away. Since then I'm somewhat skeptical about how much protection such systems really provide.

kccqzy 8y ago

Have you taken a look at a Tesla car yet? From PR materials I'm led to believe that they treat their car software seriously. I doubt one can install untrusted firmware on a Tesla car; is that so?

Rjevski 8y ago
I’ve never worked on a Tesla. I’ve left the trade long ago finding my way in software engineering instead. Tesla is probably the only one I’d trust though. While I don’t expect them to be bulletproof either (at least not at first), I expect them to quickly catch on should this kind of theft appear, and make the necessary fixes. In any case I doubt they’d be stupid enough to accept arbitrary code over a diagnostics port (if they have one even). I mean, even if we forget security, why would they? Teslas update remotely via the Internet.
- FredFS456 8y ago
  I believe Telsas have a minimal OBD-II port (where mandated by law) but mostly use an Ethernet port for debugging/service.
- StudentStuff 8y ago
  Teslas have been stolen in Europe, their high value for parts makes them well worth stealing. This is primarily Tesla's fault, as they refuse to sell parts to cars that have been in accidents. Your Tesla is essentially scrap after a non-minor accident, which is why most US insurers refuse to cover vehicles made by Tesla. Its as bad as rolling coal IMO, Tesla has created a massive eWaste problem. Meanwhile, rebuilding any other manufacturers car is doable, even other EVs. Source: https://electrek.co/2018/07/31/tesla-theft-tips-help-prevent-relay-attacks/ https://electrek.co/2018/07/31/tesla-theft-tips-help-prevent...
  - todd8 8y ago
    Relay attacks like those mentioned that Teslas are vulnerable to can also affect most other keyless entry cars. On new Mercedes one can turn off the keyless entry system by double klicking the lock button on the key when locking the car. The car key then will have to have its unlock button physically pushed to unlock the car, and in that state relay attacks won’t work.
    - bjelkeman-again 8y ago
      One can turn it off on a Tesla Model S/X the same way. On the Model 3 it is a different system so not sure how that works.
acct1771 8y ago
Stripping or modding a Tesla would be the only way I'd get one...and I'd really like to. Very interested in what happens in this thread.
- voidmain0001 8y ago
  A Motherboard article appeared on HN about a rogue Tesla mechanic. Here is his channel to help you get started: https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCfV0_wbjG8KJADuZT2ct4SA# https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCfV0_wbjG8KJADuZT2ct4SA#
  - DenTheRed 8y ago
    That Tesla powered Audi RS5 is an amazing hack! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOYY_AlRWQA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOYY_AlRWQA
  - acct1771 8y ago
    Thanks very much!
- chriscappuccio 8y ago
  Search IAAI and Copart auctions

j88439h84 8y ago

Seems like that's all you can ask for if the attacker has physical access to the machine. Would be happy to be corrected though.

Rjevski 8y ago
Not sure I agree. It’s one thing if you get physical access, replace the engine control module by a crooked one that will send the proper signals to the ignition and all the other actuators and start the car. It’s another thing if you talk to the real engine control module (which should already be on alert because the car was broken into) and tell it “trust me, I’m legit, here’s your new firmware” and the computer just runs your code no questions asked.
- jinzo 8y ago
  But on the other hand, on modern cars that is not nearly enough to get the car started. As OP pointed out, Simos18 was quite conveniently hacked, but that's far from the only ecu family. And usually they aren't hacked as easly/quickly. For example, all that Simos18 "easy" hacking can be done once you have IGN ON, if you have IGN ON it's probably easier to just code a new set of keys, than it is to flash new FW on all related and needed computers.

bri3d 8y ago

Even more modern cars with "protection" (usually against tuning, not theft) use obvious, simple-to-reverse algorithms. For example, the Simos18 ECUs used in modern VWs use flash files encrypted with AES128. Except, they share the same key and IV across all ECUs on the platform, and the key and IV are stored in plaintext in the "upgrade" routines in the flash ROM. So once you've dumped one ECU's flash memory, you own them all. This wouldn't be that hard for car manufacturers to defeat if they really cared. It's the exact same trusted-boot problem as any mobile phone faces, except (so far) with much more limited attack resources. It's devilishly hard to get perfect (as every iPhone jailbreak proves) but it's easy to get started.

Rjevski 8y ago
Seems like an easy problem to solve - every ECU generates its own encryption/signing key at first boot and dumps it over the serial port, which then gets recorded somewhere. This is eventually passed down to the car’s owner in the documentation, and the key needs to be presented before any firmware upgrade or configuration change. This isn’t bulletproof either, but surely more than “hey I’m legit, here’s your new firmware, could you install and run it please?”. Also I’m surprised they’d go after tuners, considering those are usually the most loyal customers you could dream of.
- barrkel 8y ago
  Witness Intel's unlocked CPUs: people who want access to the low-level stuff get charged a premium.
- bri3d 8y ago
  Yes, like I alluded to it's trivial drawing from any other trusted boot chain implementation. The even better and less user-intensive way to do it would be with asymmetric encryption - the ECU only trusts flashes signed with the vendor public key and to make things even more secure, you could encrypt each flash file server side with a keypair derived each boot on the ECU and sent over the Internet (many manufacturers require online flashing anyway). Manufacturers dislike tuners because they make warranty claims for tune damaged parts like blown turbos. VW especially are very, very aggressive about detection and enforcement around this. Long term I think giving a few dishonest tuned customers free turbos is probably fine but they seem to disagree and I assume they have access to the metrics driving this decision (which I don't).

tlrobinson 8y ago

"Sometimes less so, but I’d do it anyway because I needed the money and I had no proof of the contrary (innocent until proven guilty right?)." Huh, is it legal to "crack" alarms/immobilizers without proof of ownership, especially if you suspect it might be stolen?

mygo 8y ago
anyone can call a mobile locksmith and ask them to help them get into their locked car stuck in the KFC parking lot with their keys inside. It’s usually up to the locksmith to obtain proof of ownership. otherwise they’re running the risk of committing a break-in. they usually have you sign something beforehand that tries to mitigate their liability. however I’ve used some shady locksmiths who just pulled up in the passenger seat of their friend’s ride and did it without a contract and took cash. at least they didn’t scratch my car.
- Rjevski 8y ago
  In my case they always had the keys, it was purely the electronics side that was failing. In fact I explicitly remember one idiot who manually broke the transponder chip inside the key in half (no idea what they were attempting to do - replace the battery?). I can’t tell for sure that all the clients were legit, but those ones were so stupid they had to be legit! I took cash as well, because I was under 18 and couldn’t legally run a business at that time (but still needed to eat and buy drinks every weekend, and family couldn’t afford it).
Rjevski 8y ago
Not sure, but given the shitty cars I’ve worked on, I wouldn’t care even if they were stolen - nobody would call the police for such things - if anything they’d be glad someone took them away for free! I would probably feel differently if I got called to work on a supercar but that didn’t happen.

outworlder 8y ago

> program new keys Yeah. We bought an old Elantra which only came with a single key and no FOB. I bought a cheap gizmo on Amazon that you plug to the OBD port and allows you to program other FOBs. Modern-ish cars are computers. Once you have physical access, all bets are off.

jinzo 8y ago
On the other side, MY2015 Audi A3 8V needs online access for remote re-sync (sometimes the RF part of the key looses sync with the car). So yes, generally older cars are easy to modify, newer not (at least yet). Also the cheap gismo was cheap because it was a clone, original tools are not that cheap.
- tpxl 8y ago
  You need to connect your car to the internet?
  - ollie87 8y ago
    It's likely the car has it's own always-on cellular connection.
    - tpxl 8y ago
      Yeah, this is what I meant, but that sounds insane to me.
      - Rjevski 8y ago
        It is probably retrieving the "SKC" code which is necessary to program keys. However, this is by no means secure where the car's ECU will happily dump its entire storage (including the SKC code) over the diagnostics port if you ask nicely.
        jinzo 8y ago

vbezhenar 8y ago

In Russia and, I guess, similar countries, it's quite rare to encounter a car which isn't protected by an external protection system (not sure how it's called in English, in Russian it's usually called "Сигнализация") which includes shock sensors, alarm system, remote control and car block which protects some vital engine circuits. There are systems with dialog protocol between remote control and car with actual encryption inside, so it might be not so trivial to break it. In practice such cars are either stolen inside trucks or an entire system is by-passed by a separate automobile computer connected directly to necessary engine sensors, ignition coils, etc. Quite clever technique, you don't need to bypass protected electronics if you can bring and connect your own electronics.

Yizahi 8y ago
In Russia and ex-USSR in general cars are very often stolen disregarding any car alarm installed and whatever GPS trackers are inside, even rental cars with multiple trackers and a live feed to someone monitoring them. The reason - they only need a few hours to get to their base of operations where car is dismantled in to parts and then sold separately, often under protection by local law enforcement. And people can't do much - yes, you can see sudden appearance of your car parts on the used parts market, same color, same tuning etc. but you can't prove anything, and all part numbers would be destroyed during dismantle.
taneq 8y ago
> not sure how it's called in English "Immobiliser", usually. :)
- Rjevski 8y ago
  "Сигнализация" would be more akin to alarm.
GFischer 8y ago
I used to work for an insurance company and I got an entertaining presentation from a 3rd party that showed how ingenious thieves went around car block, special keys, etc, by bringing in the entire front panel of the car (thieves had one for each common model they wanted to steal). "Casual" thieves are finding it harder though, it's more organized mafia in concert with dismantlers (as mentioned on a sibling comment).

King-Aaron 8y ago

I just unclip my steering wheel, and pull out my main relay (dash mounted, race car spec). I don't think the car is going very far without those.

Zhenya 8y ago
It'll go damn far - on a flatbed.
- King-Aaron 8y ago
  haha! Yeah, but by the time you're involving a flatbed in your thieving, I don't know if any car security is going to be much good :P
  - Cthulhu_ 8y ago
    I like to think high tech cars can detect when they're being towed and will activate their tracking system and ping the emergency call center. Of course, all bets are off when it's loaded into an RF shielded truck. It could have an onboard camera to record the number plate of the truck, but that could be shielded. Long story short, you're probably better off parking it in a firmly locked / secured garage, and have a wheel clamp or chain attached to something solid.
    - King-Aaron 8y ago
      > I like to think high tech cars can detect when they're being towed and will activate their tracking system and ping the emergency call center. My GPS tracker does do this in my daily car, but it only sets it off if the rest of the alarm is triggered (i.e. if the door sensor registers it opening while the alarm is set). With the race car, it generally gets locked up. Although if I'm out in the town or something with it someone could possibly take off with it if they short-circuit the relay, and use something to clamp on the steering column (when the wheel is detached). But honestly, if someone stole the car like that they'd probably be found a few hundred yards up the road wrapped around a tree and on fire, after hitting boost with no steering wheel.

donkeyd 8y ago

> unless it’s been going on for a while but executed perfectly so nobody would find a trace My boss's car was stolen in broad daylight in front of a client's warehouse. This isn't a busy area, but it isn't extremely quiet either. The car had GPS tracking, but it disappeared without a trace. The police guessed that it was driven into the back of a closed truck and straight away transported to Eastern Europe.

gitgud 8y ago
Incredible, was there ctv footage? Reading things like this makes me realise how easy it is to steal things still. Much like the old days when people could exchange fake cheques at banks for cash... Most of the world is still built on trust.
- donkeyd 8y ago
  I asked about it at a later time, but after a certain time, the car ownership officially gets transferred to the insurance company, so any updates from the police would go to them unfortunately. From what I heard, however, police wasn't planning on spending too much time on this, because these types of cases never really result in much. Unless this becomes part of a major investigation into similar cases, it'll be dead in the water. > makes me realise how easy it is to steal things still So yeah, you're right about this. Statistics actually seem to show that low impact, organized crime pays in the Netherlands [1], since police is too busy with high impact cases. High impact often being being defined as burglaries, robberies, rape, etc. that have long-term impact on the victims well-being. [1](Dutch) https://www.bndestem.nl/overig/cbs-misdaad-loont-in-nederland~ada8dd6e/ https://www.bndestem.nl/overig/cbs-misdaad-loont-in-nederlan...
- donkeyd 8y ago
  > makes me realise how easy it is to steal things still I just found this through Reddit and had to think of your comment: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colton_Harris_Moore https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colton_Harris_Moore
tomaskafka 8y ago

blattimwind 8y ago

> I’m frankly surprised it took this long for “high tech” car theft to appear, unless it’s been going on for a while New, expensive cars are stolen or broken into quite often. When broken into, they'll often rip out the infotainment, with high end cars this can be a five-figure repair.

inferiorhuman 8y ago

> There is very little cryptography involved Wha? That may have been true about twenty years ago, but not now. BMW was using 256-bit RSA keys to validate ECU firmware and authenticate privileged access in the early 2000s (they're up to 1024-bit keys now) and write-once memory in their instrument clusters for about as long. Other (Euro) car makers using the same vendors offer similar features. Once you have physical access all bets are off though. That's why the thieves cut the alarm sensors.

Tobba_ 8y ago
Why the hell does RSA ever get used anymore, esp. in smartcards etc? It's been obsolete for like 10 years thanks to ECC, and ECC is way easier to implement (esp. 127-bit and 521-bit).
- rocqua 8y ago
  RSA has value in encryption which ECC can't do. Beyond that, RSA is so much easier to understand and implement. Because computing powers of numbers is easier than computing multiples of points on a curve.

smsm42 8y ago

Years ago, I had a car with a sophisticated ignition lock system (not my choice, but not relevant to the story). It was somewhat finicky, and creating a new key was not easy. And of course no chance of starting it without proper key! That car ended up stolen right from under my nose (I was within 100 feet of it, indoors but would hear if the alarm turned on) and the only thing I found in there when I came back for it was the sophisticated security system. The thieves just ripped it out in no time and with no sound, and drove away. Since then I'm somewhat skeptical about how much protection such systems really provide.