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Saying the other political party has “ideological resistance to helping each other,” is ridiculous. That kind of bigoted dismissive ignorance just fuels our bit

Saying the other political party has “ideological resistance to helping each other,” is ridiculous. That kind of bigoted dismissive ignorance just fuels our bitter partisan gridlock and helps nothing. Of course are fringe nutters in the world and unfortunately some of them even get elected, but the vast majority of Americans, Republicans and Democrats, are just ordinary people who care about their kids and their neighbors, want to see everyone prosper, and even agree about a lot more than they disagree about.

Latteland 8y ago
But Paul Ryan, leader of the house, wants to cut social security, medicare and medicaid. He's against unemployment. He's the titular leader of 1/3 of the govt. That's not an exaggeration, those are his stated goals in multiple interviews over many years. I agree that the vast majority of Americans want those things but the leader of the house does not. He's not just a fringe figure that managed to get elected but has no real power.
- stcredzero 8y ago
  But Paul Ryan, leader of the house, wants to cut social security, medicare and medicaid. I don't think that he's against helping people. Rather, he thinks that those programs have long term externalities which outweigh their benefits. We're talking about actual people here, not villains from a 60's cartoon.
  - influx 8y ago
    Good point, in fact there's plenty of folks on the other side who would like to replace all these programs with a more efficient system (aka basic income).
    - robdachshund 8y ago
      I'm sure welfare for everyone will be great for the economy
    - pokk 8y ago
      I think that is extremely unlikely. If you were to have a scale of the volatility of security where a zero is potentially being entirely on your own and a ten is a very modest utopia where everyone can perpetually live like a student then functioning universal basic income is probably an eight. Much of Europe today would be around a five, with the Nordic countries maybe a six. The US, being unique in many regards when it comes to developed countries, would today overall be a something like a three. Without even the most basic assistance it is probably a two. You don't just go from a two to an eight overnight. It is just so far from what exists today that it is a pretty safe bet that a functioning universal basic income system is never going to happen in the US.
      - stcredzero 8y ago
        a zero is potentially being entirely on your own I met some people in Alaska who were trying to approximate this. a ten is a very modest utopia where everyone can perpetually live like a student I guess some people historically would see it as a utopia. One's perspective changes with age and life experience. Some would find it depressing.
        pokk 8y ago
        > I guess some people historically would see it as a utopia. One's perspective changes with age and life experience. Some would find it depressing. Most people in the world, if not the US, spend at least five days a week working to have even far less then that. I would put a true utopia, with e.g. the good parts from unlimited free energy, at a hundred or more on that imaginary scale.
        stcredzero 8y ago
        I would put a true utopia, with e.g. the good parts from unlimited free energy, at a hundred or more on that imaginary scale. Sure. I'll have that instead of the 8-ish student life.
- kodablah 8y ago
  > half the country has an ideological resistance to helping each other > I agree that the vast majority of Americans want those things I had to double check that this was the same username. You seem to have disagreements with yourself. Which comment is the accurate one in your eyes? Either way, lumping half the country into one harmful ideal, then not apologizing or explicitly admitting you were initially wrong to do this or actually believing it, is not ok.
  - sgift 8y ago
    Half the country and half the people are not the same thing. Someone told me that the US voting system is designed to make sure more populated regions (e.g. big cities) don't overrule the less populated parts.
    - kodablah 8y ago
      There is no mention of "half the people" and definitely not worth the pedantic differences here on a large generic statement.
  - perl4ever 8y ago
    I don't think it was meant to be a reversal, and I don't see it as one. It's a claim that half the country holds inconsistent beliefs - wanting things for themselves which entail people helping each other, but being ideologically opposed to the mechanism. You may disagree, or consider it exaggeration, but it doesn't seem to be incoherent as a claim.
- theandrewbailey 8y ago
  That doesn't mean that Paul Ryan (or 'half the country') is against helping people. He thinks that government programs aren't the way to do it.
  - yardie 8y ago
    Then what are his ideas on the replacement? Because all we ever hear are," these are not good programs, they need replacement." We still haven't heard about the replacement.
    - adventured 8y ago
      I'm only vaguely familiar with Ryan's plans. However, he very plainly lays it all out on his site. He is extremely clear in his language about Social Security. "As Speaker of the House, one of my top priorities is to preserve the Social Security safety net and make sure the program remains solvent for future generations." https://paulryan.house.gov/issues/issue/?IssueID=12227 https://paulryan.house.gov/issues/issue/?IssueID=12227
      - yardie 8y ago
        So nothing concrete then. I've read the statement and it doesn't explain anything. Though, it appears everyone has backed away from privatization from the go-go fast days of the early aughts. The way I see it they can either cut entitlements and piss off their retired voters or they can make the young pay more and piss off their working base.
        Latteland 8y ago
        By their statements, Republicans like Ryan say they want to save health care and social security for all. But by their actions, they just want to kill those things. As far as I see, they never work on the replacements. Like the dozens of votes to kill Obama care. Please also spend time on doing the new thing. You control the house, senate, and white house. You can pass legislation now. Just negotiate with 8 democrats in the senate and you can pass anything. But they don't, because they don't really want to replace these things.
torstenvl 8y ago
The only thing that fuels partisan gridlock is a refusal to hold the parties responsible for their moral failings, including and especially Congressional Republicans' ideological resistance to helping each other. There are a great many Republican voters who support social safety nets and yet continue voting for the party that is ideologically opposed to them. Continuing to pretend this doesn't happen, as you propose, cannot fix the problem. (Note: My comment is in response to your comment about the parties. I cannot and will not defend GP's comment as applying to "half the country," as I think this is overbroad.)

Latteland 8y ago

But Paul Ryan, leader of the house, wants to cut social security, medicare and medicaid. He's against unemployment. He's the titular leader of 1/3 of the govt. That's not an exaggeration, those are his stated goals in multiple interviews over many years. I agree that the vast majority of Americans want those things but the leader of the house does not. He's not just a fringe figure that managed to get elected but has no real power.

stcredzero 8y ago
But Paul Ryan, leader of the house, wants to cut social security, medicare and medicaid. I don't think that he's against helping people. Rather, he thinks that those programs have long term externalities which outweigh their benefits. We're talking about actual people here, not villains from a 60's cartoon.
- influx 8y ago
  Good point, in fact there's plenty of folks on the other side who would like to replace all these programs with a more efficient system (aka basic income).
  - robdachshund 8y ago
    I'm sure welfare for everyone will be great for the economy
  - pokk 8y ago
    I think that is extremely unlikely. If you were to have a scale of the volatility of security where a zero is potentially being entirely on your own and a ten is a very modest utopia where everyone can perpetually live like a student then functioning universal basic income is probably an eight. Much of Europe today would be around a five, with the Nordic countries maybe a six. The US, being unique in many regards when it comes to developed countries, would today overall be a something like a three. Without even the most basic assistance it is probably a two. You don't just go from a two to an eight overnight. It is just so far from what exists today that it is a pretty safe bet that a functioning universal basic income system is never going to happen in the US.
    - stcredzero 8y ago
      a zero is potentially being entirely on your own I met some people in Alaska who were trying to approximate this. a ten is a very modest utopia where everyone can perpetually live like a student I guess some people historically would see it as a utopia. One's perspective changes with age and life experience. Some would find it depressing.
      - pokk 8y ago
        > I guess some people historically would see it as a utopia. One's perspective changes with age and life experience. Some would find it depressing. Most people in the world, if not the US, spend at least five days a week working to have even far less then that. I would put a true utopia, with e.g. the good parts from unlimited free energy, at a hundred or more on that imaginary scale.
        stcredzero 8y ago
        I would put a true utopia, with e.g. the good parts from unlimited free energy, at a hundred or more on that imaginary scale. Sure. I'll have that instead of the 8-ish student life.
kodablah 8y ago
> half the country has an ideological resistance to helping each other > I agree that the vast majority of Americans want those things I had to double check that this was the same username. You seem to have disagreements with yourself. Which comment is the accurate one in your eyes? Either way, lumping half the country into one harmful ideal, then not apologizing or explicitly admitting you were initially wrong to do this or actually believing it, is not ok.
- sgift 8y ago
  Half the country and half the people are not the same thing. Someone told me that the US voting system is designed to make sure more populated regions (e.g. big cities) don't overrule the less populated parts.
  - kodablah 8y ago
    There is no mention of "half the people" and definitely not worth the pedantic differences here on a large generic statement.
- perl4ever 8y ago
  I don't think it was meant to be a reversal, and I don't see it as one. It's a claim that half the country holds inconsistent beliefs - wanting things for themselves which entail people helping each other, but being ideologically opposed to the mechanism. You may disagree, or consider it exaggeration, but it doesn't seem to be incoherent as a claim.
theandrewbailey 8y ago
That doesn't mean that Paul Ryan (or 'half the country') is against helping people. He thinks that government programs aren't the way to do it.
- yardie 8y ago
  Then what are his ideas on the replacement? Because all we ever hear are," these are not good programs, they need replacement." We still haven't heard about the replacement.
  - adventured 8y ago
    I'm only vaguely familiar with Ryan's plans. However, he very plainly lays it all out on his site. He is extremely clear in his language about Social Security. "As Speaker of the House, one of my top priorities is to preserve the Social Security safety net and make sure the program remains solvent for future generations." https://paulryan.house.gov/issues/issue/?IssueID=12227 https://paulryan.house.gov/issues/issue/?IssueID=12227
    - yardie 8y ago
      So nothing concrete then. I've read the statement and it doesn't explain anything. Though, it appears everyone has backed away from privatization from the go-go fast days of the early aughts. The way I see it they can either cut entitlements and piss off their retired voters or they can make the young pay more and piss off their working base.
      - Latteland 8y ago
        By their statements, Republicans like Ryan say they want to save health care and social security for all. But by their actions, they just want to kill those things. As far as I see, they never work on the replacements. Like the dozens of votes to kill Obama care. Please also spend time on doing the new thing. You control the house, senate, and white house. You can pass legislation now. Just negotiate with 8 democrats in the senate and you can pass anything. But they don't, because they don't really want to replace these things.

torstenvl 8y ago

The only thing that fuels partisan gridlock is a refusal to hold the parties responsible for their moral failings, including and especially Congressional Republicans' ideological resistance to helping each other. There are a great many Republican voters who support social safety nets and yet continue voting for the party that is ideologically opposed to them. Continuing to pretend this doesn't happen, as you propose, cannot fix the problem. (Note: My comment is in response to your comment about the parties. I cannot and will not defend GP's comment as applying to "half the country," as I think this is overbroad.)