9 ms·

The troubled 29-year-old helped to die by Dutch doctors

19 points by gadders 8y ago

basicplus2 8y ago
Saying "yes ok lets kill you" just says "yes you are not worth saving"
- dang 8y ago
  Please don't post unsubstantive comments, especially on a difficult topic like this one where emotions are guaranteed to run high.
  - jazoom 8y ago
    Although I'm pro-euthanasia in a medical sense, I don't think it's fair to dismiss GP's comment like that. There was definitely substance to it, and that substance is worth thinking about, even if you sit on the other side of the fence. If you disagree, say why you disagree. Don't just say "your viewpoint has no substance".
    - SilasX 8y ago
      I agree. Maybe I’m ignorant, but I’d never thought about the topic that way, about the bind it puts the doctor in when you say you want to die, and how that interplays with the impact on mental health. I also think the comment was a succinct way to communicate that insight.
      - jazoom 8y ago
        I'm particularly fond of succinct insights. It gives you time to think. Paragraphs of disclaimers and apologies distract from insights IMHO.
    - dang 8y ago
      It's not a question of disagreeing. That comment was glib and reductionist. People need to do better than that here, especially on divisive topics. The replies to my objection were far more substantive than the original comment, proving that this is easy enough to do if people want to.
      - jazoom 8y ago
        Those replies also appreciated that "glib and reductionist" comment.
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - SilasX 8y ago
        My rephrasing of the insight took about 3x as many words; it's generally a good thing when you can convey the same insight with fewer. I get what you mean about trite, inflammatory comments, but I don't think the one you're objecting to qualifies. It points out a non-obvious implication of accepting someone's request to die. I see a clear difference between that and something like, "sure, let everyone who feels hopeless die, that sure saves money on people who aren't worth saving!".
  - manuisin 8y ago
    I think that's a very valid point by the GP. It's true that it's easier to kill someone when they want to die, rather than help them. For some reason, mental/emotional problems are not treated differently from physical ones here, it's perverse. Some physical problems we don't have the technology to heal, allowing people relief from the pain they suffer from them is reasonable. But I'd wager the large majority of mental and emotional problems can be healed, given enough care, time and love. But love is in short supply already, so may be that's not reasonable.
    - PastaMonster 8y ago
      I have had psychiatric care for over half my life. The medicine I get do not work and I have tested everything the doctors have prescribed to me. None of the medicines work. I have had the feeling of hopelessness and the will to die for a very long time. If this was an option in my country I would jump at the chance. When an animal suffers you put it down. You do not keep it alive for as long as possible. That is barbaric. The indifference the doctors have is not helping either. That the nurses treat you as a child is infuriating. Nurses come as close to going over to baby speech as possible. I would love to know the drugs she drank.
      - jazoom 8y ago
        I understand if you choose not to answer this. You say you would jump at euthanasia. Why do you not just take your own life in a more "conventional" way?
        throwaway8879 8y ago
        I think most of us have this idea that if we don't take a drastic attempt like jumping off a bridge or hanging from a ceiling fan, we aren't suffering enough. In my case, I suppose I was looking for something painless hence a bottle of pills. Perhaps our biological instinct for survival simply kicks in and whereas many people all throughout history have taken direct/bloody route to an exit, some of us just can't seem to do it.
        8y ago
- jazoom 8y ago
  I see and feel your point. As a doctor who has worked with people with severe mental health issues I can imagine nothing worse than experiencing what they do. This must be especially agonising for someone so young, who will have to experience this her whole life. That said, I'm not sure I could be part of euthanasia in a case like this. This one is very tricky with the mental state to consider. Also, what if a new treatment for some of her conditions arise within a few years? Unfortunately, progress in psychiatry is slower than probably all other medical fields.
  - maxxxxx 8y ago
    I agree this is very difficult. But saying "Also, what if a new treatment for some of her conditions arise within a few years? " is not fair to the person who is suffering at the moment. After seeing some old people have miserable lives during their last few years I think we should give people the option to leave life in diginity if they want to.
    - jazoom 8y ago
      is not fair to the person who is suffering at the moment No, it's not fair. I don't have a good answer. After seeing some old people have miserable lives during their last few years Absolutely. Some people suffer terribly at the end of their lives. This is the type of euthanasia I support.
    - taxicabjesus 8y ago
      > After seeing some old people have miserable lives during their last few years I think we should give people the option to leave life in diginity if they want to. In my way of thinking, a person is not "old" until they have lived past their "expiration date". Everyone reaches their expiration date at a different time. One woman told me she immediately thought of her first husband when the idea of people having expiration dates came up: he'd died from getting electrocuted while working on a ceiling fan. At the time they had young kids and losing her husband was traumatic, but retrospectively she realized he actually had very little drive to live. Both my grandfathers lived past their expiration date, as they were kept alive by artificial means for an extra 5-10 years. But once those pacemakers were installed, it was easier to keep them running than to turn them off. Conservative care is much kinder for old people than modern medicine. Since doctors don't have to care about cost, it's easy to use any measure to keep their patient alive, even when it's not very appropriate.
zdragnar 8y ago
"How could I know - how could anybody know - that her death wish was not a sign of her psychiatric disease? The fact that one can rationalise about it, does not mean it's not a sign of the disease," Words cannot express how grateful I am that suicide was not an endorsed or approved option for me in my younger years.
- PastaMonster 8y ago
  What was it that helped you?
  - peterburkimsher 8y ago
    Rather than pretending suicide isn't an option, putting it in its rightful last place is helping me manage my emotions. I'm a conscientious objector. If someone gives me a gun and tells me to shoot someone else, I'd rather turn it upon myself than kill another person. Life sucks. Right now I'm going through a really tough time. So bad that I wanted to Shut Down. But instead I chose to Reboot. Got a plane ticket, flew on Wednesday, and now I'm 10,000 km from the problems and very relieved. I really, really hope that I can find a new job and restart life soon - my savings won't last more than a couple of months. But this is an emergency. If it doesn't work out, becoming a monk is another possibility to retreat from the world. And if that doesn't work out, then perhaps prison. And extremely dangerous career choices, such as war zone photography. Bad circumstances will drive me to those first, before I'd hurt myself. If you're not afraid of death, you're fearless! You're free! That courage can be used to help people. Please try that first. For people wanting to help, don't ask "What happened?" - that focuses on the problem. Say "Are you OK?", "What can I do to help you?" if you care about the solution.
    - throwaway8879 8y ago
      I didn't get the chance to reboot, it was more like a hard reset. Good luck, friend. :)
  - zdragnar 8y ago
    I have 5 chronic diagnoses all considered separate (physical and mental) but in truth there is some underlying correlation between them. The first thing I tackled was my sleep disorder, followed by being aggressive about reducing the stresses in my life that I could control. The sleep bit was more controlling routine than medicine- pretty much ever sleep pill was worthless for one reason or another. It took a few years, but finally I was art a point where I could comfortably cope with everything but any sort of long term stress would bring back depression and anxiety. Lexapro has been amazing in that regard. Ultimately, friends, family, and the private shame of how selfish my thoughts were kept me going, forcing a discipline, reducing stress, a few months of therapy and now medicine, and I feel like I haven't in 15 years.
lootsauce 8y ago
I know someone who has survived multiple suicide attempts, BPD, Bipolar, Clinical Depression, etc. They went through hell, had convulsive shock therapy, a decade of therapists and experimental drugs that could kill you. They now live a perfectly normal happy life. There is light at the end of the tunnel. There is so much good in this world it is worth all that and more to hang on and see it through. We should have headlines that read "Troubled 29-year-old helped to live by Dutch doctors" We should not embrace euthanasia we should embrace every individuals inherent worth, they deserve love not poison. I know exactly how people feel for them and say it is their right. Indeed it is the open door. It is always available, you need to simply walk through it. I would hope that we on this side of it would be begging people not to go rather than shoving them through it. It is no great thing to put someone to death, no matter how it makes us feel about it they will never have the chance to feel anything.
- lockthrownaway 8y ago
  Did they credit any particular treatment with their recovery?
  - lootsauce 8y ago
    It is not worth getting into the details. CT did make a big impact. Ultimately it is very complicated and every case is unique. Edit: I would also add Cognitive Behavioral Therapy and group and talk therapy as well as ongoing engagement with professionals in general was essential.
- PastaMonster 8y ago
  How did you get better? Please be detailed.
  - lootsauce 8y ago
    I can't completely speak for this person, a close relative. I don't and maybe she does not either, know exactly what it was that worked. It took a long time, many steps forward and backward. I would simply say seek professional help.
lucb1e 8y ago
This specific case aside, I don't understand what the big deal with euthanasia is in more clear-cut cases. Why is it not possible for terminal cancer patients (or similar terminal diseases) abroad? It seems we have run this long enough to prove that, yes, it is possible to run this system without apparent abuse. And in this specific case, please keep in mind that it is so exceptional that it made international news. Both the Netherlands (RTL, as mentioned) reported on it as well as apparently the BBC. It's not as if we go along with every teen's death wish, and as the article says, "the process can take years". It's on the long side rather than short, as you have all the time in the world to reconsider, but also all the time in the world to suffer more. My grandfather had it finally arranged and was looking forward to it, but it was scheduled for a week after he died naturally. Poor man. This really is not about giving up on someone or saying someone doesn't deserve to live.
- kodablah 8y ago
  > It seems we have run this long enough to prove that, yes, it is possible to run this system without apparent abuse. Careful extrapolating successes/failures across cultures. Different peoples and different societies are much more amenable to abuse than others. It's less about their innate humanness and more about the societal structures in which they live and justified/unjustified faith (or lack of) in institutions and oversight bodies.
- paulddraper 8y ago
  > I don't understand what the big deal with euthanasia is in more clear-cut cases Is it avoided/discouraged because it is an irrevocable act. Many people believe that murderers "deserve" death and yet are reluctant to systemically end the lives of convicts even in "clear cut cases." What if the process, despite it being slow and deliberate and involved still gets it wrong?
  - daveFNbuck 8y ago
    Forcing someone to die slowly in agony is also an irrevocable act. There's more than one way to get it wrong.
thomble 8y ago
Was she killed because she was incompatible with society?
xmb 8y ago
What is and is not a psychiatric disease seems as subjective as what is and is not a crime. A growing understanding of psychiatric illness has yielded at least some good. But claims of psychiatric disease have also been abused for great evil. What constitutes mental illness will continue to evolve. Perhaps if the future is dystopian, suicidal tendencies will be treated as a normal, healthy reaction to everyday life. What should and should not die will remain a difficult question, but maybe suicide will be treated as a liberty. The human condition is far more than the labels we place on kinds of people and the kinds of lives they live.
- flukus 8y ago
  > but maybe suicide will be treated as a liberty It is a liberty, it's the closest thing we have to a truly inalienable right, mostly by virtue of being un-punishable. Short of strapping someone to a bed permanently it's impossible to forcibly prevent.
sasaf5 8y ago
As a non-lethal alternative, couldn't we have a "social suicide"? Maybe some mechanism to erase all non-criminal records of a person and restart them on a different place, with a different name? Perhaps it couldn't cover cases of severe mental disease, but it could help many.

19 points by gadders 8y ago

basicplus2 8y ago

Saying "yes ok lets kill you" just says "yes you are not worth saving"

dang 8y ago
Please don't post unsubstantive comments, especially on a difficult topic like this one where emotions are guaranteed to run high.
- jazoom 8y ago
  Although I'm pro-euthanasia in a medical sense, I don't think it's fair to dismiss GP's comment like that. There was definitely substance to it, and that substance is worth thinking about, even if you sit on the other side of the fence. If you disagree, say why you disagree. Don't just say "your viewpoint has no substance".
  - SilasX 8y ago
    I agree. Maybe I’m ignorant, but I’d never thought about the topic that way, about the bind it puts the doctor in when you say you want to die, and how that interplays with the impact on mental health. I also think the comment was a succinct way to communicate that insight.
    - jazoom 8y ago
      I'm particularly fond of succinct insights. It gives you time to think. Paragraphs of disclaimers and apologies distract from insights IMHO.
  - dang 8y ago
    It's not a question of disagreeing. That comment was glib and reductionist. People need to do better than that here, especially on divisive topics. The replies to my objection were far more substantive than the original comment, proving that this is easy enough to do if people want to.
    - jazoom 8y ago
      Those replies also appreciated that "glib and reductionist" comment.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
    - SilasX 8y ago
      My rephrasing of the insight took about 3x as many words; it's generally a good thing when you can convey the same insight with fewer. I get what you mean about trite, inflammatory comments, but I don't think the one you're objecting to qualifies. It points out a non-obvious implication of accepting someone's request to die. I see a clear difference between that and something like, "sure, let everyone who feels hopeless die, that sure saves money on people who aren't worth saving!".
- manuisin 8y ago
  I think that's a very valid point by the GP. It's true that it's easier to kill someone when they want to die, rather than help them. For some reason, mental/emotional problems are not treated differently from physical ones here, it's perverse. Some physical problems we don't have the technology to heal, allowing people relief from the pain they suffer from them is reasonable. But I'd wager the large majority of mental and emotional problems can be healed, given enough care, time and love. But love is in short supply already, so may be that's not reasonable.
  - PastaMonster 8y ago
    I have had psychiatric care for over half my life. The medicine I get do not work and I have tested everything the doctors have prescribed to me. None of the medicines work. I have had the feeling of hopelessness and the will to die for a very long time. If this was an option in my country I would jump at the chance. When an animal suffers you put it down. You do not keep it alive for as long as possible. That is barbaric. The indifference the doctors have is not helping either. That the nurses treat you as a child is infuriating. Nurses come as close to going over to baby speech as possible. I would love to know the drugs she drank.
    - jazoom 8y ago
      I understand if you choose not to answer this. You say you would jump at euthanasia. Why do you not just take your own life in a more "conventional" way?
      - throwaway8879 8y ago
        I think most of us have this idea that if we don't take a drastic attempt like jumping off a bridge or hanging from a ceiling fan, we aren't suffering enough. In my case, I suppose I was looking for something painless hence a bottle of pills. Perhaps our biological instinct for survival simply kicks in and whereas many people all throughout history have taken direct/bloody route to an exit, some of us just can't seem to do it.
      - 8y ago
jazoom 8y ago
I see and feel your point. As a doctor who has worked with people with severe mental health issues I can imagine nothing worse than experiencing what they do. This must be especially agonising for someone so young, who will have to experience this her whole life. That said, I'm not sure I could be part of euthanasia in a case like this. This one is very tricky with the mental state to consider. Also, what if a new treatment for some of her conditions arise within a few years? Unfortunately, progress in psychiatry is slower than probably all other medical fields.
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  I agree this is very difficult. But saying "Also, what if a new treatment for some of her conditions arise within a few years? " is not fair to the person who is suffering at the moment. After seeing some old people have miserable lives during their last few years I think we should give people the option to leave life in diginity if they want to.
  - jazoom 8y ago
    is not fair to the person who is suffering at the moment No, it's not fair. I don't have a good answer. After seeing some old people have miserable lives during their last few years Absolutely. Some people suffer terribly at the end of their lives. This is the type of euthanasia I support.
  - taxicabjesus 8y ago
    > After seeing some old people have miserable lives during their last few years I think we should give people the option to leave life in diginity if they want to. In my way of thinking, a person is not "old" until they have lived past their "expiration date". Everyone reaches their expiration date at a different time. One woman told me she immediately thought of her first husband when the idea of people having expiration dates came up: he'd died from getting electrocuted while working on a ceiling fan. At the time they had young kids and losing her husband was traumatic, but retrospectively she realized he actually had very little drive to live. Both my grandfathers lived past their expiration date, as they were kept alive by artificial means for an extra 5-10 years. But once those pacemakers were installed, it was easier to keep them running than to turn them off. Conservative care is much kinder for old people than modern medicine. Since doctors don't have to care about cost, it's easy to use any measure to keep their patient alive, even when it's not very appropriate.

zdragnar 8y ago

"How could I know - how could anybody know - that her death wish was not a sign of her psychiatric disease? The fact that one can rationalise about it, does not mean it's not a sign of the disease," Words cannot express how grateful I am that suicide was not an endorsed or approved option for me in my younger years.

PastaMonster 8y ago
What was it that helped you?
- peterburkimsher 8y ago
  Rather than pretending suicide isn't an option, putting it in its rightful last place is helping me manage my emotions. I'm a conscientious objector. If someone gives me a gun and tells me to shoot someone else, I'd rather turn it upon myself than kill another person. Life sucks. Right now I'm going through a really tough time. So bad that I wanted to Shut Down. But instead I chose to Reboot. Got a plane ticket, flew on Wednesday, and now I'm 10,000 km from the problems and very relieved. I really, really hope that I can find a new job and restart life soon - my savings won't last more than a couple of months. But this is an emergency. If it doesn't work out, becoming a monk is another possibility to retreat from the world. And if that doesn't work out, then perhaps prison. And extremely dangerous career choices, such as war zone photography. Bad circumstances will drive me to those first, before I'd hurt myself. If you're not afraid of death, you're fearless! You're free! That courage can be used to help people. Please try that first. For people wanting to help, don't ask "What happened?" - that focuses on the problem. Say "Are you OK?", "What can I do to help you?" if you care about the solution.
  - throwaway8879 8y ago
    I didn't get the chance to reboot, it was more like a hard reset. Good luck, friend. :)
- zdragnar 8y ago
  I have 5 chronic diagnoses all considered separate (physical and mental) but in truth there is some underlying correlation between them. The first thing I tackled was my sleep disorder, followed by being aggressive about reducing the stresses in my life that I could control. The sleep bit was more controlling routine than medicine- pretty much ever sleep pill was worthless for one reason or another. It took a few years, but finally I was art a point where I could comfortably cope with everything but any sort of long term stress would bring back depression and anxiety. Lexapro has been amazing in that regard. Ultimately, friends, family, and the private shame of how selfish my thoughts were kept me going, forcing a discipline, reducing stress, a few months of therapy and now medicine, and I feel like I haven't in 15 years.

lootsauce 8y ago

I know someone who has survived multiple suicide attempts, BPD, Bipolar, Clinical Depression, etc. They went through hell, had convulsive shock therapy, a decade of therapists and experimental drugs that could kill you. They now live a perfectly normal happy life. There is light at the end of the tunnel. There is so much good in this world it is worth all that and more to hang on and see it through. We should have headlines that read "Troubled 29-year-old helped to live by Dutch doctors" We should not embrace euthanasia we should embrace every individuals inherent worth, they deserve love not poison. I know exactly how people feel for them and say it is their right. Indeed it is the open door. It is always available, you need to simply walk through it. I would hope that we on this side of it would be begging people not to go rather than shoving them through it. It is no great thing to put someone to death, no matter how it makes us feel about it they will never have the chance to feel anything.

lockthrownaway 8y ago
Did they credit any particular treatment with their recovery?
- lootsauce 8y ago
  It is not worth getting into the details. CT did make a big impact. Ultimately it is very complicated and every case is unique. Edit: I would also add Cognitive Behavioral Therapy and group and talk therapy as well as ongoing engagement with professionals in general was essential.
PastaMonster 8y ago
How did you get better? Please be detailed.
- lootsauce 8y ago
  I can't completely speak for this person, a close relative. I don't and maybe she does not either, know exactly what it was that worked. It took a long time, many steps forward and backward. I would simply say seek professional help.

lucb1e 8y ago

This specific case aside, I don't understand what the big deal with euthanasia is in more clear-cut cases. Why is it not possible for terminal cancer patients (or similar terminal diseases) abroad? It seems we have run this long enough to prove that, yes, it is possible to run this system without apparent abuse. And in this specific case, please keep in mind that it is so exceptional that it made international news. Both the Netherlands (RTL, as mentioned) reported on it as well as apparently the BBC. It's not as if we go along with every teen's death wish, and as the article says, "the process can take years". It's on the long side rather than short, as you have all the time in the world to reconsider, but also all the time in the world to suffer more. My grandfather had it finally arranged and was looking forward to it, but it was scheduled for a week after he died naturally. Poor man. This really is not about giving up on someone or saying someone doesn't deserve to live.

kodablah 8y ago
> It seems we have run this long enough to prove that, yes, it is possible to run this system without apparent abuse. Careful extrapolating successes/failures across cultures. Different peoples and different societies are much more amenable to abuse than others. It's less about their innate humanness and more about the societal structures in which they live and justified/unjustified faith (or lack of) in institutions and oversight bodies.
paulddraper 8y ago
> I don't understand what the big deal with euthanasia is in more clear-cut cases Is it avoided/discouraged because it is an irrevocable act. Many people believe that murderers "deserve" death and yet are reluctant to systemically end the lives of convicts even in "clear cut cases." What if the process, despite it being slow and deliberate and involved still gets it wrong?
- daveFNbuck 8y ago
  Forcing someone to die slowly in agony is also an irrevocable act. There's more than one way to get it wrong.

thomble 8y ago

Was she killed because she was incompatible with society?

xmb 8y ago

What is and is not a psychiatric disease seems as subjective as what is and is not a crime. A growing understanding of psychiatric illness has yielded at least some good. But claims of psychiatric disease have also been abused for great evil. What constitutes mental illness will continue to evolve. Perhaps if the future is dystopian, suicidal tendencies will be treated as a normal, healthy reaction to everyday life. What should and should not die will remain a difficult question, but maybe suicide will be treated as a liberty. The human condition is far more than the labels we place on kinds of people and the kinds of lives they live.

flukus 8y ago
> but maybe suicide will be treated as a liberty It is a liberty, it's the closest thing we have to a truly inalienable right, mostly by virtue of being un-punishable. Short of strapping someone to a bed permanently it's impossible to forcibly prevent.

sasaf5 8y ago

As a non-lethal alternative, couldn't we have a "social suicide"? Maybe some mechanism to erase all non-criminal records of a person and restart them on a different place, with a different name? Perhaps it couldn't cover cases of severe mental disease, but it could help many.