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I thing a larger factor is the Mormon Church/Mormon population. Utah has some strangely progressive economic policies like housing-first solutions to homelessne

I thing a larger factor is the Mormon Church/Mormon population. Utah has some strangely progressive economic policies like housing-first solutions to homelessness. Utah is a red state for sure, especially when it comes to social policies, but has the 'community' orientation that another commenter mentioned that public transit falls neatly in to.

reaperducer 8y ago
A lot of Christians talk a big game about charity and such. But once I started becoming familiar with LDS folk, I was really impressed. They’re Christians in ways many other denominations only claim to be. KSL-TV (LDS-owned NBC station) has an AppleTV app, and watching the SLC local news is far more interesting than I thought it would be. And there’s far less needless murder and mayhem plus more “good” news than is available in my market.
- dba7dba 8y ago
  The thing with LDS is that it's more of an organization with a strong (aka oppressive? or too powerful) leadership at top. Every adult has to go on a 'mission' for a full year? On the flip side, there is no such distinct leadership/requirements in most other Christian organizations. Pretty much anyone call self a Christian. Maybe Catholics are similar to LDS but I'm not too familiar with them.
  - rsweeney21 8y ago
    Missions are 2 years for men, 1.5 years for women. It's optional for both men and women, but men are expected to go. I went on a mission to Peru for 2 years. It was amazing, I have no regrets, but I wouldn't do it again. It was incredibly hard. In contrast, I've started two modestly successful companies (one bootstrapped, one backed by $16M in VC money) and I'm working on starting my third. Startups are grueling, but not as grueling as a mission IMO. :)
    - joeblas 8y ago
      I too went on a 2 year mission in Ohio and I second the statement that it was incredibly hard but totally worth it.
    - paulddraper 8y ago
      And the missions are served by either young adults (18-25) or retirees. I.e. at times that are minimally disruptive to careers, families, etc.
  - ivanech 8y ago
    Catholics are pretty different. The Catholic Church asks for less than the LDS (and most churches) at the local level, and it's quite a bit more hands-off. The higher levels of Catholic hierarchy looks like a medieval institution because it is a medieval institution. There is definitely set dogma, and the Church does not waver on it, but Catholics are generally quite comfortable being buffet Christians (choosing which bits to follow and which to disregard). I've met many more buffet Catholics than buffet Mormons.
    - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
      That is only true in the states and perhaps parts of Europe. Catholics in Latin America, Africa, and the Philippines are much less buffet.
      - ivanech 8y ago
        Very true! I should have specified that this applies for Catholics in the United States.
    - wwweston 8y ago
      As far as I can tell, all Mormons are buffet Mormons. The ones that think they're not just usually aren't thinking about the rest of what's being served besides what they usually eat. (Your point about relative comfort at this fact may remain true independent of this observation.)
      - tntn 8y ago
        I'm curious what beliefs you have in mind that you notice are typically not thought about. (Not that I think they don't exist, I'm just curious what specifically you have in mind). The LDS church has an interesting tiered conception of doctrine, wherein some things that have been taught by LDS prophets are not in fact official doctrine. People tend to ignore the "space doctrine" most of the time too.
      - Osiris 8y ago
        I've been an active member my whole life (38) and I've never even heard of "space doctrine". I looked it up and as far as I can tell, there are some theories by members of the Church but nothing from any current or former members of the Quorum of the Twelve or First Presidency, which is required for something to really be considered canon. Just because some member of the Church believes or says something doesn't make it doctrine.
  - goda90 8y ago
    The belief is that God speaks to the world through a prophet, like he did with Moses, and that he still actively does so to this day. The leadership at the top is established so that it can be certain who that prophet is, and not just anyone who claims it.
- paulie_a 8y ago
  Except they are an outright cult.
  - krapp 8y ago
    A cult is nothing more than an unpopular religion. Christianity itself was just a Jewish cult until Constantine found it useful.
    - ridgeguy 8y ago
      Yep. Council of Nicaea, 325 AD [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea
    - dredmorbius 8y ago
      There are a number of other features generally included in the definition of cults. Isolation, absolute authority, leader-worship, shunning of defectors, and other elements among them. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Cult#Warning_signs_of_a_potentially_destructive_cult https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Cult#Warning_signs_of_a_potent...
      - matthewwiese 8y ago
        I agree with you that it's uncharitable to call Christianity a cult when there are more obviously perverse religious/New Age groups that better align with the definition (at least for the sake of debate). However, I'm sure if you asked an LGBTQ person of their experiences with Christianity, especially with the uniquely conservative U.S. evangelical variety, they would say that some of those qualities clearly fit the bill. Edit: One could also argue that the Catholic Church and its system of cardinals electing the pope (and whose very presence is regarded as sacrosanct) would qualify as both absolute authority and leader-worship. Albeit, I know the pope's own cop out is that God is the absolute authority, but I digress before my interest in theology leads us all down a dull rabbit hole.
        dredmorbius 8y ago
- billiam 8y ago
  Sorry, I too know many LDS members and really love the SLC area and all the other incredible things in the state. While I like lots of things about the LDS community, the society there has many of the problems of Western states with lots of poverty, plus some that may be attributed to Mormon values: the highest rate of antidepressant use of any state, and the highest rate of cosmetic surgery. As for crime, the murder rate in Utah is similar to that of Idaho and higher than Massachusetts, Minnesota, and Connecticut.
  - tntn 8y ago
    > plus some that may be attributed to Mormon values: the highest rate of antidepressant use of any state, I won't dispute this, but I will mention some interesting hypotheses that indicate rates of depression are highly correlated with altitude.
    - chrispeel 8y ago
      For more on altitude and depression see https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/321219.php https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/321219.php and https://www.livescience.com/50813-low-oxygen-increase-depression.html https://www.livescience.com/50813-low-oxygen-increase-depres...
  - j88439h84 8y ago
    Which of those are problems and which are solutions? How can you tell?
  - wwweston 8y ago
    > plus some that may be attributed to Mormon values: the highest rate of antidepressant use of any state, and the highest rate of cosmetic surgery. The perfectionist streak is real. The manifestation in cosmetic surgery is somewhat odd considering it's not explicitly taught (and has even been explicitly been panned). My own theory is that it's a weird combo of taking ideals seriously, religiously magnified & concentrated conscientiousness, and finally, heavily emphasizing the importance of having a mate and tying status to it. However, I'm not sure the most ready explanation for any outlying antidepressant is oppressive religious expectations, outside of either some extra zealous backgrounds or key demographics like gay/lesbian individuals who are presented with a dilemma by the church that usually can't be resolved living inside church direction. Given the famous abstinence from most common forms of self-medication (alcohol, weed, and tobacco), and a bit of a bent for being directed by authority, seems to me a good chunk of the difference is likely to essentially be displaced system-approved substance use.
- chooseaname 8y ago
  By definition, there's only one way to be a Christian and LDS aren't Christians. Pedantry aside, Christians are still human and thus succumb to sin and as such are not as charitable as they should be.
  - JetSpiegel 8y ago
    > there's only one way to be a Christian and LDS aren't Christians. What? Do you mean Catholics? There are non-Catholic Christian churches, but they are still Christians.
    - chooseaname 8y ago
      I'm referring to their doctrine of salvation.
      - TheCoelacanth 8y ago
        That's an awfully broad claim considering that there are hundreds or thousands of branches of Christianity and many of them differ on what they believe to be necessary for salvation.
  - RightMillennial 8y ago
    True, but it's very possible for someone who's not technically Christian to be more "Christian". Not the theological aspect but the whole behavior part: "love thy neighbor", and not throwing out charitable works.
specialist 8y ago
Homogeneity makes governance (consensus) a lot easier.
- sangnoir 8y ago
  Only for those prone to hate or fear "the other" amongst them. There are countless heterogeneous, egalitarian jurisdictions where concern for "fellow citizen" - regardless of superficial differences, is enough to gain consensus: it's all about how you define the in-group and out-group.
  - specialist 8y ago
    We're talking about Utah here. They're able to do things, like address homelessness and prison reform, that "liberal" areas of the USA can only dream about.

reaperducer 8y ago

A lot of Christians talk a big game about charity and such. But once I started becoming familiar with LDS folk, I was really impressed. They’re Christians in ways many other denominations only claim to be. KSL-TV (LDS-owned NBC station) has an AppleTV app, and watching the SLC local news is far more interesting than I thought it would be. And there’s far less needless murder and mayhem plus more “good” news than is available in my market.

dba7dba 8y ago
The thing with LDS is that it's more of an organization with a strong (aka oppressive? or too powerful) leadership at top. Every adult has to go on a 'mission' for a full year? On the flip side, there is no such distinct leadership/requirements in most other Christian organizations. Pretty much anyone call self a Christian. Maybe Catholics are similar to LDS but I'm not too familiar with them.
- rsweeney21 8y ago
  Missions are 2 years for men, 1.5 years for women. It's optional for both men and women, but men are expected to go. I went on a mission to Peru for 2 years. It was amazing, I have no regrets, but I wouldn't do it again. It was incredibly hard. In contrast, I've started two modestly successful companies (one bootstrapped, one backed by $16M in VC money) and I'm working on starting my third. Startups are grueling, but not as grueling as a mission IMO. :)
  - joeblas 8y ago
    I too went on a 2 year mission in Ohio and I second the statement that it was incredibly hard but totally worth it.
  - paulddraper 8y ago
    And the missions are served by either young adults (18-25) or retirees. I.e. at times that are minimally disruptive to careers, families, etc.
- ivanech 8y ago
  Catholics are pretty different. The Catholic Church asks for less than the LDS (and most churches) at the local level, and it's quite a bit more hands-off. The higher levels of Catholic hierarchy looks like a medieval institution because it is a medieval institution. There is definitely set dogma, and the Church does not waver on it, but Catholics are generally quite comfortable being buffet Christians (choosing which bits to follow and which to disregard). I've met many more buffet Catholics than buffet Mormons.
  - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
    That is only true in the states and perhaps parts of Europe. Catholics in Latin America, Africa, and the Philippines are much less buffet.
    - ivanech 8y ago
      Very true! I should have specified that this applies for Catholics in the United States.
  - wwweston 8y ago
    As far as I can tell, all Mormons are buffet Mormons. The ones that think they're not just usually aren't thinking about the rest of what's being served besides what they usually eat. (Your point about relative comfort at this fact may remain true independent of this observation.)
    - tntn 8y ago
      I'm curious what beliefs you have in mind that you notice are typically not thought about. (Not that I think they don't exist, I'm just curious what specifically you have in mind). The LDS church has an interesting tiered conception of doctrine, wherein some things that have been taught by LDS prophets are not in fact official doctrine. People tend to ignore the "space doctrine" most of the time too.
    - Osiris 8y ago
      I've been an active member my whole life (38) and I've never even heard of "space doctrine". I looked it up and as far as I can tell, there are some theories by members of the Church but nothing from any current or former members of the Quorum of the Twelve or First Presidency, which is required for something to really be considered canon. Just because some member of the Church believes or says something doesn't make it doctrine.
- goda90 8y ago
  The belief is that God speaks to the world through a prophet, like he did with Moses, and that he still actively does so to this day. The leadership at the top is established so that it can be certain who that prophet is, and not just anyone who claims it.
paulie_a 8y ago
Except they are an outright cult.
- krapp 8y ago
  A cult is nothing more than an unpopular religion. Christianity itself was just a Jewish cult until Constantine found it useful.
  - ridgeguy 8y ago
    Yep. Council of Nicaea, 325 AD [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea
  - dredmorbius 8y ago
    There are a number of other features generally included in the definition of cults. Isolation, absolute authority, leader-worship, shunning of defectors, and other elements among them. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Cult#Warning_signs_of_a_potentially_destructive_cult https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Cult#Warning_signs_of_a_potent...
    - matthewwiese 8y ago
      I agree with you that it's uncharitable to call Christianity a cult when there are more obviously perverse religious/New Age groups that better align with the definition (at least for the sake of debate). However, I'm sure if you asked an LGBTQ person of their experiences with Christianity, especially with the uniquely conservative U.S. evangelical variety, they would say that some of those qualities clearly fit the bill. Edit: One could also argue that the Catholic Church and its system of cardinals electing the pope (and whose very presence is regarded as sacrosanct) would qualify as both absolute authority and leader-worship. Albeit, I know the pope's own cop out is that God is the absolute authority, but I digress before my interest in theology leads us all down a dull rabbit hole.
      - dredmorbius 8y ago
billiam 8y ago
Sorry, I too know many LDS members and really love the SLC area and all the other incredible things in the state. While I like lots of things about the LDS community, the society there has many of the problems of Western states with lots of poverty, plus some that may be attributed to Mormon values: the highest rate of antidepressant use of any state, and the highest rate of cosmetic surgery. As for crime, the murder rate in Utah is similar to that of Idaho and higher than Massachusetts, Minnesota, and Connecticut.
- tntn 8y ago
  > plus some that may be attributed to Mormon values: the highest rate of antidepressant use of any state, I won't dispute this, but I will mention some interesting hypotheses that indicate rates of depression are highly correlated with altitude.
  - chrispeel 8y ago
    For more on altitude and depression see https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/321219.php https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/321219.php and https://www.livescience.com/50813-low-oxygen-increase-depression.html https://www.livescience.com/50813-low-oxygen-increase-depres...
- j88439h84 8y ago
  Which of those are problems and which are solutions? How can you tell?
- wwweston 8y ago
  > plus some that may be attributed to Mormon values: the highest rate of antidepressant use of any state, and the highest rate of cosmetic surgery. The perfectionist streak is real. The manifestation in cosmetic surgery is somewhat odd considering it's not explicitly taught (and has even been explicitly been panned). My own theory is that it's a weird combo of taking ideals seriously, religiously magnified & concentrated conscientiousness, and finally, heavily emphasizing the importance of having a mate and tying status to it. However, I'm not sure the most ready explanation for any outlying antidepressant is oppressive religious expectations, outside of either some extra zealous backgrounds or key demographics like gay/lesbian individuals who are presented with a dilemma by the church that usually can't be resolved living inside church direction. Given the famous abstinence from most common forms of self-medication (alcohol, weed, and tobacco), and a bit of a bent for being directed by authority, seems to me a good chunk of the difference is likely to essentially be displaced system-approved substance use.
chooseaname 8y ago
By definition, there's only one way to be a Christian and LDS aren't Christians. Pedantry aside, Christians are still human and thus succumb to sin and as such are not as charitable as they should be.
- JetSpiegel 8y ago
  > there's only one way to be a Christian and LDS aren't Christians. What? Do you mean Catholics? There are non-Catholic Christian churches, but they are still Christians.
  - chooseaname 8y ago
    I'm referring to their doctrine of salvation.
    - TheCoelacanth 8y ago
      That's an awfully broad claim considering that there are hundreds or thousands of branches of Christianity and many of them differ on what they believe to be necessary for salvation.
- RightMillennial 8y ago
  True, but it's very possible for someone who's not technically Christian to be more "Christian". Not the theological aspect but the whole behavior part: "love thy neighbor", and not throwing out charitable works.

specialist 8y ago

Homogeneity makes governance (consensus) a lot easier.

sangnoir 8y ago
Only for those prone to hate or fear "the other" amongst them. There are countless heterogeneous, egalitarian jurisdictions where concern for "fellow citizen" - regardless of superficial differences, is enough to gain consensus: it's all about how you define the in-group and out-group.
- specialist 8y ago
  We're talking about Utah here. They're able to do things, like address homelessness and prison reform, that "liberal" areas of the USA can only dream about.