12 ms·

Firefox Offers Recommendations with Latest Test Pilot Experiment: Advance

84 points by Kemet 8y ago

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
dgllghr 8y ago
If the privacy settings are right for this, I'm very excited. This is exactly the kind of feature I would like to use but don't because it involves sharing so much of my browsing.
- cujo 8y ago
  Looks like there is no privacy. They either get everything and you get the service, or you disable it. I know it says you can "request" info get deleted, but I'm not going to bet a quarter on that working.
  - michaelgv 8y ago
    I imagine that when you request data deleted it’s only anonymized, and the actual learning data is kept.
  - Karunamon 8y ago
    Won't this explicitly fall afoul of GDPR? My completely lay understanding is that you no longer can offer give-us-your-data-take-it-or-leave-it services in the EU.
- forapurpose 8y ago
  There doesn't seem to be much privacy in the test, but they do say, > we will not pursue this outside of Test Pilot if we can't do it in a way that's private and which adds genuine end-user value. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17717947 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17717947
narkee 8y ago
Reminds me a lot of StumbleUpon, which coincidentally, just shut down this year (June 30 2018).
michaelgv 8y ago
I’d be open to this if it was built in Firefox and let you run the models on your own machine instead of blindly trusting a third party.
- dblohm7 8y ago
  It sounds like you would prefer Pocket Recommendations then, as that is exactly how it works.
kodablah 8y ago
I'm confused about a couple of things. First, the tech. So my browsing history is sent over the internet to a third party who comes up with recommendations via some magic opaque system? Can some recommendations be prioritized by how much you pay this third party? I have all sorts of questions about Laserlike's use of the data, but I guess I can dig for myself. Sure, you can say "well, don't use it" but this is more about the health of internet users in general, not just me. Second, the reasoning. Why? Is Mozilla altruistically trying to help people find new things similar to what they're looking at on the internet? Is this really a problem begging to be solved? What is the relationship with this third party company Laserlike? Which way is money changing hands and how? How do resources get allocated to projects like this as opposed to any other (i.e. curious about prioritization)? From the outside looking in, it seems to have little value, but of course that's why you test these things. It just seems like a strange direction to put resources in. I personally hope this experiment fails and people do not use their browsers for webpage-like things such as recommendations. This is not the browser's role and I'm becoming increasingly concerned at what larger companies think the browser's role is vs little ole me. My only reason for not wanting it to fail is I know that people put work into it.
- clairity 8y ago
  this is the market working as intended. search is overridden with advertising, corporate messaging, politics and other moneyed interests. in contrast, users are looking for authentic content and information. those two things are increasingly misaligned. mozilla is experimenting with a new way for users to find what they want, rather than deferring to google et al. to deliver subpar user experiences. it may work, it may not, but i’m glad they are trying. (edit: i probably won’t try it any time soon, due to the privacy concerns voiced here and elsewhere. hopefully mozilla addresses those with a v.2 release and maybe i will try it then)
  - kodablah 8y ago
    > this is the market working as intended Is it? I would love for a transparent market-driven motivation to be presented. But in its absence, we can only guess. > mozilla is experimenting with a new way for users to find what they want Why? Because they don't like the existing ways? Because they believe it fits their mission? Because there is money on the line? My TV vendor also experiments with new ways to host apps and use the internet too. > it may work, it may not, but i’m glad they are trying I personally am not glad they are trying. In fact, these trials help solidify my beliefs in the Mozilla's ideals regarding the role of a browser and can potentially alienate me or at the least prevent them from maintaining an air of righteousness in my eyes.
dralley 8y ago
Since there are a lot of more hyperbolic articles from "ghacks" and similar ilk going around, I feel compelled to point out straight away that this is explicitly opt-in. You not only have to install the Test Pilot addon, which is not installed by default, but you then have to enable the experiment. The sky is not falling just because they're offering something like this locked behind two separate opt-in steps.
- crankylinuxuser 8y ago
  > I feel compelled to point out straight away that this is explicitly opt-in. Now. > The sky is not falling just because they're offering something like this locked behind two separate opt-in steps. They did the same scam with Pocket. Now, tell me how to disable that again?
  - drb91 8y ago
    > Now, tell me how to disable that again? You can disable it in about:config.
    - crankylinuxuser 8y ago
      extensions.pocket.enabled => FALSE is what you're talking about, right? Why the hell is a bloody plugin compiled in with a browser?! I should be able to click "delete" on the plugin screen and purge this trashheap from my system. I shouldn't have to use "hope and prayer" that a plugin isn't used. Instead, I have to go traipsing in about:config. It's not even in preferences, or plugins, or wherever.
      - youseecomrade 8y ago
        You're better off just going the power user way and making your own user.js file https://github.com/pyllyukko/user.js https://github.com/pyllyukko/user.js You can use version control, options persist between restarts if you accidentally change something, you can use comments, easily make new profiles that share the same settings Or you can keep complaining until every piece of software have like 3 options inside a hamburger menu
mgbmtl 8y ago
The important bit: "[...] we want people to clearly understand that Laserlike will receive their web browsing history before installing the experiment. We have also included controls so that participants can pause the experiment, see what browser history Laserlike has about them, or request deletion of that information." So, this is basically a better Stumble Upon, where you can delete the data they have on you. How are they monetizing the service? There is a complaint on the Apple App store that while you can delete your history, you may not be able to delete your account: https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/laserlike-search-discover/id1246441938?mt=8 https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/laserlike-search-discover/id...
- autoexec 8y ago
  I never trust that I can delete my collected data from anyone. At the point you hit the delete button your data has likely already been spread around to backups (including offline/offsite), been aggregated with other's data, shared with "partners" and sold to other companies and data brokers. The idea that a "delete" button can somehow undo all of that and keep your data out of others hands is absurd.
  - russdpale 8y ago
    Exactly. And there is nothing that verifies anythong gets deleted anyways. It could always just tell you it deleted it while never deleting anything.
- Vinnl 8y ago
  > How are they monetizing the service? How are they monetising Firefox bookmarks? How are they monetising the awesomebar? Which is to say: Mozilla doesn't necessarily add features to monetise them. (Although indirectly, most of their money does come through Firefox - and also their influence, in terms of being able to fulfil their mission. The motivation hence is most likely to be that they simply want more people to use Firefox. Another motivation might be that they want less people to be dependent on e.g. Facebook for the discovery of websites.)
newscracker 8y ago
When I started reading the article I thought this was an enhancement to Pocket and that somehow, external data (context from other sites) downloaded periodically combined with local browser history, would help the extension to provide options on where to go next. But later I understood that the browser history is sent to a machine learning startup called Laserlike: “At Mozilla, we believe browser history is sensitive information and we want people to clearly understand that Laserlike will receive their web browsing history before installing the experiment. We have also included controls so that participants can pause the experiment, see what browser history Laserlike has about them, or request deletion of that information.” I certainly wouldn’t try this experiment out. Not because my browsing history is scandalous in any way, but because it’s nobody else’s business to see what I’m doing with my browser, when and where. I do commend Mozilla for being transparent and also for doing such experiments, even though as a privacy nut, I don’t see myself using this ever.
- StavrosK 8y ago
  "We have also included controls so that participants can pause the experiment, see what browser history Laserlike has about them, or request deletion of that information.” Where the hell are these controls? Since I installed this thing before reading that it'd send my data to some party, like an idiot, I'd like to request deletion of the data now, but I can't for the life of me find any sort of interface for it. What the fuck, Mozilla?
  - seren 8y ago
    So this is a violation of GDPR as well ?
    - scarejunba 8y ago
      How come everything is a GDPR violation to you? https://imgur.com/a/PGKovg2 https://imgur.com/a/PGKovg2
    - GordonS 8y ago
      You have to consent to use this, and Mozilla tell you exactly what information you are providing and what happens with it - how exactly does this violate the GDPR?
cJ0th 8y ago
If you allow me to put on my red hat (when was the last time you heard someone say that ?) then I have to say that this feels like typical PR speak where the opposite is closer to the truth than the actual statement.
tapoxi 8y ago
I don't get how this relates to Mozilla's mission, I especially don't understand how technologies that are core to their mission (open communication with Thunderbird, open identity with Persona) are left abandoned. I'm not offended by the extension, I'm more befuddled why they're wasting their time and money on something very few people want. My friends/social network are going to suggest cool stuff to read, not some startup's bot reading by browsing history. Mozilla's mission is the reason people use Firefox. Chrome (and siblings) are better supported by developers and have significantly better performance. Mozilla's marketshare will continue to dwindle if they continue to invest their time in projects like this.
- SheinhardtWigCo 8y ago
  Mozilla is in a tough place. They build a product for an ecosystem where invasive tracking and surveillance are required to make decent money, and they have to monetize that product or die, all while presenting themselves as a benevolent non-profit that cares about privacy and keeping the web healthy.
- smacktoward 8y ago
  The really mystifying part is that one of the key value propositions of Firefox is "here is a browser that respects your privacy," and yet Mozilla keeps flirting with bolting things on to Firefox that actively undermine that value proposition. They repeatedly sabotage the success of their only product! It's astounding.
  - jstarfish 8y ago
    It reeks of a lack of integrity. They say they respect your privacy, but the fact that they're considering things like this in the first place means their convictions are negotiable.
  - megaman22 8y ago
    It's too much to hope that products could just focus on doing what they do, and doing it well, rather than bodging on miscellaneous shit until it resembles the Homermobile. Build a browser. Implement the standards fully. Make it scream. That's your job.
seren 8y ago
Is it an accident that Advance starts with Ad ? I don't think so. The screenshot with the top100 restaurants exactly looks like an ad placement. It is probably not bad that Mozilla gets other source of income, but please call a spade a spade.
- jeltz 8y ago
  Haha, so many adtech companies start with ad- that is hard not to make that connection.
Hello71 8y ago
"Firefox integrating targeted sidebar ads based on selling complete browser history".
fpgaminer 8y ago
Let's talk about the knee-jerk reaction we are all probably having right now: "Muh privacy!" It's hard not to have that reaction. A couple days ago there was a front page post on HN about the DNS-Over-HTTPS features that Mozilla is experimenting with. Mozilla has this storied history of community reactions. So perhaps we can all be forgiven for being on edge with Firefox. Our news feed makes it seem like Mozilla is out to get you. And yet, none of these stories ever end up bearing fruit. How often has Mozilla _actually_ violated your privacy. When rubber meets the road, Firefox is in many ways the most pro-user-privacy browser on the market. Not to mention all the other work that Mozilla does. Common Voice (https://voice.mozilla.org/en https://voice.mozilla.org/en) is an amazing project that could completely change the game for user privacy in the IoT industry. Let's Encrypt stepped up the level of encryption on the internet by an order of magnitude, and it did so for free when everyone else was gouging us. Rust is making many bugs a thing of the past, which will lead to far fewer instances of user data being leaked by security bugs. Yet through all this work that Mozilla does to fight _for_ you, they get shit on by news articles and in these comment sections. Meanwhile Chrome, which we _know_ is harvesting our data, gets no news. Perhaps it is because we hold Mozilla to a higher standard. We are used to Google's abuse with Chrome, so we don't talk about it. But any move by Mozilla that could possibly be misconstrued as them becoming corrupt raises all our alarms. Or perhaps the Firefox team is simply struggling with PR. After all, these last two news worthy incidences are really just issues with communication. Firefox _isn't_ sending all your DNS queries and browsing history off into wonderland. These are experiments. But it seems like a lot of people miss that point. So maybe it's just a communication issue. Or maybe this all has to do with Mozilla being open. When Google experiments, they do so mostly in secret. Mozilla's transparency might be making them easy targets for sloppy news. Either way, my point is that a lot of us are happy to throw Mozilla under the bus at the slightest hint of corruption, but we never take the time to appreciate the good work they've done (for free, by the way).
- ve55 8y ago
  Yes, Firefox is held to a higher standard of user privacy than Chrome. This is how it should be given that Chrome is a product made by one of the largest for-profit surveilliance and advertising companies that has ever existed. Firefox has constantly violated my expectations of privacy in many ways, by removing important features, adding tracking in many locations (including Google Analytics on internal browser pages), and adding copious amounts of worthless features that use dark patterns in order to convince the user to hand over their data (Firefox accounts, Pocket, 'Take a Screenshot', many more)
conroy 8y ago
Mozilla is such a confusing company, and I say this as a daily Firefox user. How can you be claim to be serious about privacy when you partner with a startup to harvest complete browser histories? Makes no sense.
putlake 8y ago
We are at a time in history when we could benefit from reading _alternative_ points of view rather than remain trapped in our ideological bubbles.
htor 8y ago
i can't help but feel disappointed about mozilla proposing to have advertisement mechanisms built right into their browser. there's a blurry line between suggestions and plain advertisement. as a user online i don't need more relevant information. this is just marketing people baloney to make people buy more stuff.
O2F2 8y ago
This can not realistically end up as a addon and also will not gain any traction as opt-in option, it needs to be opt-out. So it's either going to be abandoned or end up baked in. So, unless a considerable part of the userbase is "throwing a tantrum", this will be yet another thing I have to remember to turn off on fresh installs. Not fighting this kind of erosion tooth and nail at every step endangers the only viable, fully featured, alternative to the Googles browser. Yes, Mozilla needs to be held to a higher standard, the alternative is the inversion of what it stands for. I have honestly no idea how one can look at this and go yeah, that seems like its in tune with our values.
- pbhjpbhj 8y ago
  The next question that follows is "who at Mozilla instigated this and why?". The mindset at Mozilla seems to have changed somewhat.
- Vinnl 8y ago
  It might be opt-out, but it needn't necessarily send your data to a third party or even Mozilla if it ever does get baked in. They're also experimenting with finding ways to do machine learning client-side.
sanbor 8y ago
I don't like this kind of features. I understand that the rationale behind sites like Youtube is to feed you more content to be able to show you more ads, but I see it as a DoS attack to my productivity. Curiously, Google is starting to implement "Wellbeing" on Android to cut so many distractions. I have commented this a couple of times already. I would like Mozilla to focus on fundamental things for a web browser like a good print dialog or syncing your search engines.

84 points by Kemet 8y ago

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

If the privacy settings are right for this, I'm very excited. This is exactly the kind of feature I would like to use but don't because it involves sharing so much of my browsing.

cujo 8y ago
Looks like there is no privacy. They either get everything and you get the service, or you disable it. I know it says you can "request" info get deleted, but I'm not going to bet a quarter on that working.
- michaelgv 8y ago
  I imagine that when you request data deleted it’s only anonymized, and the actual learning data is kept.
- Karunamon 8y ago
  Won't this explicitly fall afoul of GDPR? My completely lay understanding is that you no longer can offer give-us-your-data-take-it-or-leave-it services in the EU.
forapurpose 8y ago
There doesn't seem to be much privacy in the test, but they do say, > we will not pursue this outside of Test Pilot if we can't do it in a way that's private and which adds genuine end-user value. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17717947 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17717947

narkee 8y ago

Reminds me a lot of StumbleUpon, which coincidentally, just shut down this year (June 30 2018).

michaelgv 8y ago

I’d be open to this if it was built in Firefox and let you run the models on your own machine instead of blindly trusting a third party.

dblohm7 8y ago
It sounds like you would prefer Pocket Recommendations then, as that is exactly how it works.

kodablah 8y ago

I'm confused about a couple of things. First, the tech. So my browsing history is sent over the internet to a third party who comes up with recommendations via some magic opaque system? Can some recommendations be prioritized by how much you pay this third party? I have all sorts of questions about Laserlike's use of the data, but I guess I can dig for myself. Sure, you can say "well, don't use it" but this is more about the health of internet users in general, not just me. Second, the reasoning. Why? Is Mozilla altruistically trying to help people find new things similar to what they're looking at on the internet? Is this really a problem begging to be solved? What is the relationship with this third party company Laserlike? Which way is money changing hands and how? How do resources get allocated to projects like this as opposed to any other (i.e. curious about prioritization)? From the outside looking in, it seems to have little value, but of course that's why you test these things. It just seems like a strange direction to put resources in. I personally hope this experiment fails and people do not use their browsers for webpage-like things such as recommendations. This is not the browser's role and I'm becoming increasingly concerned at what larger companies think the browser's role is vs little ole me. My only reason for not wanting it to fail is I know that people put work into it.

clairity 8y ago
this is the market working as intended. search is overridden with advertising, corporate messaging, politics and other moneyed interests. in contrast, users are looking for authentic content and information. those two things are increasingly misaligned. mozilla is experimenting with a new way for users to find what they want, rather than deferring to google et al. to deliver subpar user experiences. it may work, it may not, but i’m glad they are trying. (edit: i probably won’t try it any time soon, due to the privacy concerns voiced here and elsewhere. hopefully mozilla addresses those with a v.2 release and maybe i will try it then)
- kodablah 8y ago
  > this is the market working as intended Is it? I would love for a transparent market-driven motivation to be presented. But in its absence, we can only guess. > mozilla is experimenting with a new way for users to find what they want Why? Because they don't like the existing ways? Because they believe it fits their mission? Because there is money on the line? My TV vendor also experiments with new ways to host apps and use the internet too. > it may work, it may not, but i’m glad they are trying I personally am not glad they are trying. In fact, these trials help solidify my beliefs in the Mozilla's ideals regarding the role of a browser and can potentially alienate me or at the least prevent them from maintaining an air of righteousness in my eyes.

dralley 8y ago

Since there are a lot of more hyperbolic articles from "ghacks" and similar ilk going around, I feel compelled to point out straight away that this is explicitly opt-in. You not only have to install the Test Pilot addon, which is not installed by default, but you then have to enable the experiment. The sky is not falling just because they're offering something like this locked behind two separate opt-in steps.

crankylinuxuser 8y ago
> I feel compelled to point out straight away that this is explicitly opt-in. Now. > The sky is not falling just because they're offering something like this locked behind two separate opt-in steps. They did the same scam with Pocket. Now, tell me how to disable that again?
- drb91 8y ago
  > Now, tell me how to disable that again? You can disable it in about:config.
  - crankylinuxuser 8y ago
    extensions.pocket.enabled => FALSE is what you're talking about, right? Why the hell is a bloody plugin compiled in with a browser?! I should be able to click "delete" on the plugin screen and purge this trashheap from my system. I shouldn't have to use "hope and prayer" that a plugin isn't used. Instead, I have to go traipsing in about:config. It's not even in preferences, or plugins, or wherever.
    - youseecomrade 8y ago
      You're better off just going the power user way and making your own user.js file https://github.com/pyllyukko/user.js https://github.com/pyllyukko/user.js You can use version control, options persist between restarts if you accidentally change something, you can use comments, easily make new profiles that share the same settings Or you can keep complaining until every piece of software have like 3 options inside a hamburger menu

mgbmtl 8y ago

The important bit: "[...] we want people to clearly understand that Laserlike will receive their web browsing history before installing the experiment. We have also included controls so that participants can pause the experiment, see what browser history Laserlike has about them, or request deletion of that information." So, this is basically a better Stumble Upon, where you can delete the data they have on you. How are they monetizing the service? There is a complaint on the Apple App store that while you can delete your history, you may not be able to delete your account: https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/laserlike-search-discover/id1246441938?mt=8 https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/laserlike-search-discover/id...

autoexec 8y ago
I never trust that I can delete my collected data from anyone. At the point you hit the delete button your data has likely already been spread around to backups (including offline/offsite), been aggregated with other's data, shared with "partners" and sold to other companies and data brokers. The idea that a "delete" button can somehow undo all of that and keep your data out of others hands is absurd.
- russdpale 8y ago
  Exactly. And there is nothing that verifies anythong gets deleted anyways. It could always just tell you it deleted it while never deleting anything.
Vinnl 8y ago
> How are they monetizing the service? How are they monetising Firefox bookmarks? How are they monetising the awesomebar? Which is to say: Mozilla doesn't necessarily add features to monetise them. (Although indirectly, most of their money does come through Firefox - and also their influence, in terms of being able to fulfil their mission. The motivation hence is most likely to be that they simply want more people to use Firefox. Another motivation might be that they want less people to be dependent on e.g. Facebook for the discovery of websites.)

newscracker 8y ago

When I started reading the article I thought this was an enhancement to Pocket and that somehow, external data (context from other sites) downloaded periodically combined with local browser history, would help the extension to provide options on where to go next. But later I understood that the browser history is sent to a machine learning startup called Laserlike: “At Mozilla, we believe browser history is sensitive information and we want people to clearly understand that Laserlike will receive their web browsing history before installing the experiment. We have also included controls so that participants can pause the experiment, see what browser history Laserlike has about them, or request deletion of that information.” I certainly wouldn’t try this experiment out. Not because my browsing history is scandalous in any way, but because it’s nobody else’s business to see what I’m doing with my browser, when and where. I do commend Mozilla for being transparent and also for doing such experiments, even though as a privacy nut, I don’t see myself using this ever.

StavrosK 8y ago
"We have also included controls so that participants can pause the experiment, see what browser history Laserlike has about them, or request deletion of that information.” Where the hell are these controls? Since I installed this thing before reading that it'd send my data to some party, like an idiot, I'd like to request deletion of the data now, but I can't for the life of me find any sort of interface for it. What the fuck, Mozilla?
- seren 8y ago
  So this is a violation of GDPR as well ?
  - scarejunba 8y ago
    How come everything is a GDPR violation to you? https://imgur.com/a/PGKovg2 https://imgur.com/a/PGKovg2
  - GordonS 8y ago
    You have to consent to use this, and Mozilla tell you exactly what information you are providing and what happens with it - how exactly does this violate the GDPR?

cJ0th 8y ago

If you allow me to put on my red hat (when was the last time you heard someone say that ?) then I have to say that this feels like typical PR speak where the opposite is closer to the truth than the actual statement.

tapoxi 8y ago

I don't get how this relates to Mozilla's mission, I especially don't understand how technologies that are core to their mission (open communication with Thunderbird, open identity with Persona) are left abandoned. I'm not offended by the extension, I'm more befuddled why they're wasting their time and money on something very few people want. My friends/social network are going to suggest cool stuff to read, not some startup's bot reading by browsing history. Mozilla's mission is the reason people use Firefox. Chrome (and siblings) are better supported by developers and have significantly better performance. Mozilla's marketshare will continue to dwindle if they continue to invest their time in projects like this.

SheinhardtWigCo 8y ago
Mozilla is in a tough place. They build a product for an ecosystem where invasive tracking and surveillance are required to make decent money, and they have to monetize that product or die, all while presenting themselves as a benevolent non-profit that cares about privacy and keeping the web healthy.
smacktoward 8y ago
The really mystifying part is that one of the key value propositions of Firefox is "here is a browser that respects your privacy," and yet Mozilla keeps flirting with bolting things on to Firefox that actively undermine that value proposition. They repeatedly sabotage the success of their only product! It's astounding.
- jstarfish 8y ago
  It reeks of a lack of integrity. They say they respect your privacy, but the fact that they're considering things like this in the first place means their convictions are negotiable.
- megaman22 8y ago
  It's too much to hope that products could just focus on doing what they do, and doing it well, rather than bodging on miscellaneous shit until it resembles the Homermobile. Build a browser. Implement the standards fully. Make it scream. That's your job.

seren 8y ago

Is it an accident that Advance starts with Ad ? I don't think so. The screenshot with the top100 restaurants exactly looks like an ad placement. It is probably not bad that Mozilla gets other source of income, but please call a spade a spade.

jeltz 8y ago
Haha, so many adtech companies start with ad- that is hard not to make that connection.

Hello71 8y ago

"Firefox integrating targeted sidebar ads based on selling complete browser history".

fpgaminer 8y ago

Let's talk about the knee-jerk reaction we are all probably having right now: "Muh privacy!" It's hard not to have that reaction. A couple days ago there was a front page post on HN about the DNS-Over-HTTPS features that Mozilla is experimenting with. Mozilla has this storied history of community reactions. So perhaps we can all be forgiven for being on edge with Firefox. Our news feed makes it seem like Mozilla is out to get you. And yet, none of these stories ever end up bearing fruit. How often has Mozilla _actually_ violated your privacy. When rubber meets the road, Firefox is in many ways the most pro-user-privacy browser on the market. Not to mention all the other work that Mozilla does. Common Voice (https://voice.mozilla.org/en https://voice.mozilla.org/en) is an amazing project that could completely change the game for user privacy in the IoT industry. Let's Encrypt stepped up the level of encryption on the internet by an order of magnitude, and it did so for free when everyone else was gouging us. Rust is making many bugs a thing of the past, which will lead to far fewer instances of user data being leaked by security bugs. Yet through all this work that Mozilla does to fight _for_ you, they get shit on by news articles and in these comment sections. Meanwhile Chrome, which we _know_ is harvesting our data, gets no news. Perhaps it is because we hold Mozilla to a higher standard. We are used to Google's abuse with Chrome, so we don't talk about it. But any move by Mozilla that could possibly be misconstrued as them becoming corrupt raises all our alarms. Or perhaps the Firefox team is simply struggling with PR. After all, these last two news worthy incidences are really just issues with communication. Firefox _isn't_ sending all your DNS queries and browsing history off into wonderland. These are experiments. But it seems like a lot of people miss that point. So maybe it's just a communication issue. Or maybe this all has to do with Mozilla being open. When Google experiments, they do so mostly in secret. Mozilla's transparency might be making them easy targets for sloppy news. Either way, my point is that a lot of us are happy to throw Mozilla under the bus at the slightest hint of corruption, but we never take the time to appreciate the good work they've done (for free, by the way).

ve55 8y ago
Yes, Firefox is held to a higher standard of user privacy than Chrome. This is how it should be given that Chrome is a product made by one of the largest for-profit surveilliance and advertising companies that has ever existed. Firefox has constantly violated my expectations of privacy in many ways, by removing important features, adding tracking in many locations (including Google Analytics on internal browser pages), and adding copious amounts of worthless features that use dark patterns in order to convince the user to hand over their data (Firefox accounts, Pocket, 'Take a Screenshot', many more)

conroy 8y ago

Mozilla is such a confusing company, and I say this as a daily Firefox user. How can you be claim to be serious about privacy when you partner with a startup to harvest complete browser histories? Makes no sense.

putlake 8y ago

We are at a time in history when we could benefit from reading _alternative_ points of view rather than remain trapped in our ideological bubbles.

htor 8y ago

i can't help but feel disappointed about mozilla proposing to have advertisement mechanisms built right into their browser. there's a blurry line between suggestions and plain advertisement. as a user online i don't need more relevant information. this is just marketing people baloney to make people buy more stuff.

O2F2 8y ago

This can not realistically end up as a addon and also will not gain any traction as opt-in option, it needs to be opt-out. So it's either going to be abandoned or end up baked in. So, unless a considerable part of the userbase is "throwing a tantrum", this will be yet another thing I have to remember to turn off on fresh installs. Not fighting this kind of erosion tooth and nail at every step endangers the only viable, fully featured, alternative to the Googles browser. Yes, Mozilla needs to be held to a higher standard, the alternative is the inversion of what it stands for. I have honestly no idea how one can look at this and go yeah, that seems like its in tune with our values.

pbhjpbhj 8y ago
The next question that follows is "who at Mozilla instigated this and why?". The mindset at Mozilla seems to have changed somewhat.
Vinnl 8y ago
It might be opt-out, but it needn't necessarily send your data to a third party or even Mozilla if it ever does get baked in. They're also experimenting with finding ways to do machine learning client-side.

sanbor 8y ago

I don't like this kind of features. I understand that the rationale behind sites like Youtube is to feed you more content to be able to show you more ads, but I see it as a DoS attack to my productivity. Curiously, Google is starting to implement "Wellbeing" on Android to cut so many distractions. I have commented this a couple of times already. I would like Mozilla to focus on fundamental things for a web browser like a good print dialog or syncing your search engines.