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Cars must stop for pedestrians at crosswalks in Norway. I got very used to this. Occasionally drivers ignore that rule, but in general, it's a very nice thing.

Cars must stop for pedestrians at crosswalks in Norway. I got very used to this. Occasionally drivers ignore that rule, but in general, it's a very nice thing. However, in Oslo, the only thing that doesn't stop for pedestrians is trams. I don't know why.

legulere 8y ago
Crosswalks are not allowed to be on roads with tram lines in Germany.
- anamexis 8y ago
  That doesn't make sense - how would pedestrians cross roads with tram lines? Here's a crosswalk across a road with a tram line in Berlin. https://goo.gl/maps/G9vfZyoUjr62 https://goo.gl/maps/G9vfZyoUjr62
  - legulere 8y ago
    Ah sorry I meant zebra crossings in particular. The one you sent me seems to be one with traffic lights for the pedestrians. Generally you are allowed to cross ways almost everywhere if you are giving the vehicles on the road precedence. There are a few restrictions: you should use the shortest path, if there are zebra crossings or traffic lights nearby you have to use them, if there is a lot of traffic you should cross at intersections, etc. but there’s not the general concept of jaywalking.
stingraycharles 8y ago
> However, in Oslo, the only thing that doesn't stop for pedestrians is trams. I don't know why. Same thing in Amsterdam, although the stopping distance seems fairly short. I think it has mostly to do with minimizing interruptions and being relatively infrequent. And taxis also never stop, but they don’t seem to stop for anything ever.
- sushibowl 8y ago
  Trams get the highest priority on Amsterdam roads, and that is because they are on rails. It means their options to avoid accidents are extremely limited: they cannot avoid obstacles, only adjust their speed. You are right about taxis, I'm pretty sure they don't actually have breaks. I would also add bicycles to this list, they mostly ignore traffic laws in Amsterdam.
  - avar 8y ago
    I don't believe that legally they follow any different traffic laws, and they will usually yield for you if they're turning into your lane, and should yield whenever a car would (subject to custom signage for the tram etc.). But in practice they operate under "Bitch, I'm a tram!" rules, and you'll need to be really assertive if you're going to get them to yield when they legally should, but the same goes for taxis.
    - Luc 8y ago
      No, that doesn't sound right. Trams have priority over cars, unless you're on a road with priority and they're arriving at a crossing with this road. Look up 'voorrangsregel tram' or 'rechtdoorregel tram'.
      - avar 8y ago
        Sorry, to clarify (and I may be wrong). I'm talking about situations where the tram acts contrary to traffic signs. Per my (translated) reading of the law[1] (article 15, subsection 1 & 2) trams only take priority over the "priority to the right" rule, but not other posted traffic signs. So for example [2] is an intersection where I've often seen the tram go past a yield sign and cut off traffic on the left. 1. http://wetten.overheid.nl/BWBR0004825/2018-07-01 http://wetten.overheid.nl/BWBR0004825/2018-07-01 2. https://goo.gl/RHVfpi https://goo.gl/RHVfpi
- avar 8y ago
  This isn't the case in Amsterdam, bicycles and cars will stop for you you or weave around you (depending on the case) if you're on a crosswalk. What they aren't going to do is stop for you just because you're standing on the side of the road by a crosswalk and you vaguely look like you might possibly maybe intend to cross the street. With the amount of tourists in the city that's only going to result in a deadlock (particularly on a bicycle) where you're waiting for them to go, and they're waiting for you. Just start walking across the crosswalk in a predictable manner and maintain your course and heading. It works.
CaptainZapp 8y ago
The stopping distance is more than twice as long as for a bus[1], so this actually makes sense. [1] https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/trams-emergency-stop-distance-twice-as-long-as-bus-1-3311653 https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/trams-...
- bigpeopleareold 8y ago
  I had this thought, so it is interesting that it is confirmed elsewhere. I don't know if it always plays into the fact that the trams in Oslo are actually old (according to Wikipedia, from the 80s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trams_in_Oslo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trams_in_Oslo)
  - CaptainZapp 8y ago
    I think it's pure physics. Trams are much heavier than buses so there would be more mass to be stopped. In addition I think that vehicles running on tracks take longer to stop. I live in Zurich, which runs overall pretty new(ish) trams. Makes no difference. Disclaimer: I was always pretty crap in physics :)
    - adrianN 8y ago
      The coefficient of friction of rubber on road is much higher than steel on steel.
      - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
        Which is why trams that go up and down hills use rubber rather than steel (like one in Lausanne).
dionidium 8y ago
The same is true in NYC (and I strongly suspect it is everywhere else in the U.S., too): > When there is no traffic control signal, drivers must yield the right-of-way to pedestrians in the crosswalk. (Sec. 1151). https://www.dot.ny.gov/divisions/operating/opdm/local-programs-bureau/repository/pedestrian/resources/faq.html https://www.dot.ny.gov/divisions/operating/opdm/local-progra...
- kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
  More significantly, NY state prohibits driving through the occupied half of a crosswalk. This is rarely observed.
- jessriedel 8y ago
  There's a silly tendency in discussion of US issues to prefer examples from European countries over the almost-always more applicable examples from US states. This isn't to say European or other international examples aren't extremely useful, but when there are multiple possible equivalent examples, the ones from places that are most closely related to the place under discussion are likely to be more informative. (For instance, people love to cite Sweden when discussing the US educational system, but it's usually more illuminating to look at similarly wealthy states like Massachusetts for information about what could actually be ported to the US.) </rant> Anyways, in a minority of US states cars are required to stop for pedestrians in a crosswalk, while they are required to yield to them in all states. > Nine states and the District of Columbia require motorists to stop when approaching a pedestrian in an uncontrolled crosswalk. Minnesota mandates that a motorist stop when a pedestrian is in any portion of the roadway. Six states and D.C. require a motorist to stop when a pedestrian is upon the same half of the roadway or within one lane of the lane that the motorist is traveling upon, and two states require a motorist to stop when a pedestrian is upon the same half of the roadway or approaching closely enough from the opposite side of the roadway to constitute a danger...The majority of states, however, only require motorists to yield to, rather than stop for, pedestrians crossing at uncontrolled crosswalks. Nineteen states require a motorist to yield when a pedestrian is upon any portion of the roadway. http://www.ncsl.org/research/transportation/pedestrian-crossing-50-state-summary.aspx http://www.ncsl.org/research/transportation/pedestrian-cross...
Symbiote 8y ago
A tram driver pressing the emergency brake can cause injuries in the tram: the ride is normally so smooth, that many people aren't holding on to anything, or are barely holding on, and will fall. Also, the stopping distance is longer than most people would expect. It's therefore safer to discourage people from jumping out in front of trams and expecting the tram to slow/stop to avoid them.
- Steltek 8y ago
  Emergency stops for trains can also "flatten" the wheels. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_spot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_spot
TearsInTheRain 8y ago
Reno NV has that rule. I almost hit someone when I visited because I was not used to it and blew through a crosswalk when someone wanted to cross. Imho having rules like that without explicit controls like stop signs/lights seems dangerous.
erentz 8y ago
I suspect the same is true just about everywhere. In Seattle it’s not just crosswalks, technically cars have to stop for pedestrians at ALL unsignalized intersections. (Those without lights.) Surprisingly many drivers here are pretty good about it too. Obviously it’s a bit of a negotiation depending on the intersection and visibility.

legulere 8y ago

Crosswalks are not allowed to be on roads with tram lines in Germany.

anamexis 8y ago
That doesn't make sense - how would pedestrians cross roads with tram lines? Here's a crosswalk across a road with a tram line in Berlin. https://goo.gl/maps/G9vfZyoUjr62 https://goo.gl/maps/G9vfZyoUjr62
- legulere 8y ago
  Ah sorry I meant zebra crossings in particular. The one you sent me seems to be one with traffic lights for the pedestrians. Generally you are allowed to cross ways almost everywhere if you are giving the vehicles on the road precedence. There are a few restrictions: you should use the shortest path, if there are zebra crossings or traffic lights nearby you have to use them, if there is a lot of traffic you should cross at intersections, etc. but there’s not the general concept of jaywalking.

stingraycharles 8y ago

> However, in Oslo, the only thing that doesn't stop for pedestrians is trams. I don't know why. Same thing in Amsterdam, although the stopping distance seems fairly short. I think it has mostly to do with minimizing interruptions and being relatively infrequent. And taxis also never stop, but they don’t seem to stop for anything ever.

sushibowl 8y ago
Trams get the highest priority on Amsterdam roads, and that is because they are on rails. It means their options to avoid accidents are extremely limited: they cannot avoid obstacles, only adjust their speed. You are right about taxis, I'm pretty sure they don't actually have breaks. I would also add bicycles to this list, they mostly ignore traffic laws in Amsterdam.
- avar 8y ago
  I don't believe that legally they follow any different traffic laws, and they will usually yield for you if they're turning into your lane, and should yield whenever a car would (subject to custom signage for the tram etc.). But in practice they operate under "Bitch, I'm a tram!" rules, and you'll need to be really assertive if you're going to get them to yield when they legally should, but the same goes for taxis.
  - Luc 8y ago
    No, that doesn't sound right. Trams have priority over cars, unless you're on a road with priority and they're arriving at a crossing with this road. Look up 'voorrangsregel tram' or 'rechtdoorregel tram'.
    - avar 8y ago
      Sorry, to clarify (and I may be wrong). I'm talking about situations where the tram acts contrary to traffic signs. Per my (translated) reading of the law[1] (article 15, subsection 1 & 2) trams only take priority over the "priority to the right" rule, but not other posted traffic signs. So for example [2] is an intersection where I've often seen the tram go past a yield sign and cut off traffic on the left. 1. http://wetten.overheid.nl/BWBR0004825/2018-07-01 http://wetten.overheid.nl/BWBR0004825/2018-07-01 2. https://goo.gl/RHVfpi https://goo.gl/RHVfpi
avar 8y ago
This isn't the case in Amsterdam, bicycles and cars will stop for you you or weave around you (depending on the case) if you're on a crosswalk. What they aren't going to do is stop for you just because you're standing on the side of the road by a crosswalk and you vaguely look like you might possibly maybe intend to cross the street. With the amount of tourists in the city that's only going to result in a deadlock (particularly on a bicycle) where you're waiting for them to go, and they're waiting for you. Just start walking across the crosswalk in a predictable manner and maintain your course and heading. It works.

CaptainZapp 8y ago

The stopping distance is more than twice as long as for a bus[1], so this actually makes sense. [1] https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/trams-emergency-stop-distance-twice-as-long-as-bus-1-3311653 https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/trams-...

bigpeopleareold 8y ago
I had this thought, so it is interesting that it is confirmed elsewhere. I don't know if it always plays into the fact that the trams in Oslo are actually old (according to Wikipedia, from the 80s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trams_in_Oslo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trams_in_Oslo)
- CaptainZapp 8y ago
  I think it's pure physics. Trams are much heavier than buses so there would be more mass to be stopped. In addition I think that vehicles running on tracks take longer to stop. I live in Zurich, which runs overall pretty new(ish) trams. Makes no difference. Disclaimer: I was always pretty crap in physics :)
  - adrianN 8y ago
    The coefficient of friction of rubber on road is much higher than steel on steel.
    - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
      Which is why trams that go up and down hills use rubber rather than steel (like one in Lausanne).

dionidium 8y ago

The same is true in NYC (and I strongly suspect it is everywhere else in the U.S., too): > When there is no traffic control signal, drivers must yield the right-of-way to pedestrians in the crosswalk. (Sec. 1151). https://www.dot.ny.gov/divisions/operating/opdm/local-programs-bureau/repository/pedestrian/resources/faq.html https://www.dot.ny.gov/divisions/operating/opdm/local-progra...

kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
More significantly, NY state prohibits driving through the occupied half of a crosswalk. This is rarely observed.
jessriedel 8y ago
There's a silly tendency in discussion of US issues to prefer examples from European countries over the almost-always more applicable examples from US states. This isn't to say European or other international examples aren't extremely useful, but when there are multiple possible equivalent examples, the ones from places that are most closely related to the place under discussion are likely to be more informative. (For instance, people love to cite Sweden when discussing the US educational system, but it's usually more illuminating to look at similarly wealthy states like Massachusetts for information about what could actually be ported to the US.) </rant> Anyways, in a minority of US states cars are required to stop for pedestrians in a crosswalk, while they are required to yield to them in all states. > Nine states and the District of Columbia require motorists to stop when approaching a pedestrian in an uncontrolled crosswalk. Minnesota mandates that a motorist stop when a pedestrian is in any portion of the roadway. Six states and D.C. require a motorist to stop when a pedestrian is upon the same half of the roadway or within one lane of the lane that the motorist is traveling upon, and two states require a motorist to stop when a pedestrian is upon the same half of the roadway or approaching closely enough from the opposite side of the roadway to constitute a danger...The majority of states, however, only require motorists to yield to, rather than stop for, pedestrians crossing at uncontrolled crosswalks. Nineteen states require a motorist to yield when a pedestrian is upon any portion of the roadway. http://www.ncsl.org/research/transportation/pedestrian-crossing-50-state-summary.aspx http://www.ncsl.org/research/transportation/pedestrian-cross...

Symbiote 8y ago

A tram driver pressing the emergency brake can cause injuries in the tram: the ride is normally so smooth, that many people aren't holding on to anything, or are barely holding on, and will fall. Also, the stopping distance is longer than most people would expect. It's therefore safer to discourage people from jumping out in front of trams and expecting the tram to slow/stop to avoid them.

Steltek 8y ago
Emergency stops for trains can also "flatten" the wheels. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_spot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_spot

TearsInTheRain 8y ago

Reno NV has that rule. I almost hit someone when I visited because I was not used to it and blew through a crosswalk when someone wanted to cross. Imho having rules like that without explicit controls like stop signs/lights seems dangerous.

erentz 8y ago

I suspect the same is true just about everywhere. In Seattle it’s not just crosswalks, technically cars have to stop for pedestrians at ALL unsignalized intersections. (Those without lights.) Surprisingly many drivers here are pretty good about it too. Obviously it’s a bit of a negotiation depending on the intersection and visibility.