9 ms·

This is horrible. Instead of bail, they should just have steeper fines for failure to appear and yet on the flipside the same guarantees afforded to jury duty a

by titzer 8y ago

This is horrible. Instead of bail, they should just have steeper fines for failure to appear and yet on the flipside the same guarantees afforded to jury duty as far as employment (i.e. can't be fired for having to appear in court). That would allow poorer people to keep their jobs and still be present for court dates. Flight risk is really not as high as the system is designed for.

mschuster91 8y ago
> Flight risk is really not as high as the system is designed for. The system is rigged against the minorities. Look why cannabis was criminalized in the first place - to target blacks and hippies (https://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/john-ehrlichman-richard-nixon-drug-war-blacks-hippie/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/john-ehrlichman-...). As a politician, keep as many of 'em in jails as you can, thus showing the white population you're "tough on crime" and at the same time filling the coffers of your private prison operator friends with state cash for the jailing.
- dismantlethesun 8y ago
  I have heard this and always wondered what exactly is keeping people from doing drugs with lessers sentencing? For example, if crack-cocaine carries a high sentence, then why not drop the habit in exchange for powdered cocaine? If the question is price, then this is really more of a system targeting the poor than one that is against any specific minority group.
  - mschuster91 8y ago
    > If the question is price, then this is really more of a system targeting the poor than one that is against any specific minority group. Well, if the majority of poor people are blacks (and Latinos), then it certainly is a racist policy to have vastly different sentencing for the drugs for poor and rich people.
  - moate 8y ago
    Crack is substantially cheaper to obtain than powdered cocaine. Crack is just powdered cocaine that's been cooked with other substances, essentially diluting it. The question is purely price, and it's the system targeting drug users of certain class/ethnic groups more than others. If you look at drug law enforcement in the US, it's substantially more punitive towards poor/minority groups.
    - moate 8y ago
      1- Can't imagine ya'll refute what crack is/the pricing of it since those are just objective facts. So, for anyone who's salty that the system is rigged against poor people/minorities: Citation A: https://www.vera.org/publications/for-the-record-public-health-justice-system-responses-opioid-crisis https://www.vera.org/publications/for-the-record-public-heal... Citation B: http://www.drugpolicy.org/issues/race-and-drug-war http://www.drugpolicy.org/issues/race-and-drug-war Citation C: https://www.aclu.org/files/FilesPDFs/ACF4F34.pdf https://www.aclu.org/files/FilesPDFs/ACF4F34.pdf Citation D: https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/06/28/the-war-on-drugs-is-a-war-on-minorities-and-the-poor/#5d4e5960624c https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/06/28/the-war-on-... I can do a the standard English alphabet, the Greek alphabet, simplified Chinese, Japanese kanji and any other alphabets you guys would like me to tack on with sources that state the same thing: The War On Drugs is a War on Poor People and Minorities.
- StreamBright 8y ago
  This white against minorities narrative breaks down once you understand that ~80% of minorities are DNC voters[1] and Bill Clinton was the number one guy who f*ed them over the most with the infamous Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994[2]. 1. http://www.people-press.org/2018/03/20/1-trends-in-party-affiliation-among-demographic-groups/2_3-14/ http://www.people-press.org/2018/03/20/1-trends-in-party-aff... 2. In a speech at an NAACP convention in Philadelphia in July, Clinton acknowledged that tougher incarceration provisions in the bill were a mistake. “I signed a bill that made the problem worse,” Clinton said. “And I want to admit it.” I think this issue has many different angles than just the usual whites vs. minorities.
  - arethuza 8y ago
    How likely are those people to vote Republican though? If there is little change of that then introducing a harsh new law might win more votes than it would lose.
    - StreamBright 8y ago
      I am not sure, I just wanted to point out that this white vs minorities narrative is stupid. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jun/05/trump-prison-reform-first-step-act-tension https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jun/05/trump-prison...
      - dnomad 8y ago
        How is it a "narrative"? The widespread and coordinated use of drug laws to persecute minorities is a matter of historical fact. Are you disputing the historical facts? Are you familiar with the rigorous academic research on this subject? You might want to start here [1]. Calling something a "narrative" doesn't actually change anything, let alone the facts. [1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/680751.The_Marijuana_Conviction https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/680751.The_Marijuana_Con...
        wang_li 8y ago
mantas 8y ago
Steeper fines for failure to appear is just pushing the goalpost.
Ntrails 8y ago
The problem with a fine for failure to appear is that you have to find the person to make them pay. The assumption being that if you're skipping out on a court case you're probably doing so with the intention of never attending, and a fine they can't enforce isn't going to make a difference. The logic behind bail is simple, you either show up to court or lose money that you cannot afford to lose. The incentives make sense at first glance.
- kasey_junk 8y ago
  The incentives for prosecutors though are off. They use high bail to leverage plea bargains & are judged on how well they accomplish that. Objective, non cash based determination of pretrial risk makes way more sense when judged through that lens.
  - Ntrails 8y ago
    Completely agree, the article makes a nice coherent argument for why it's actually created a horrific situation for those near the poverty line.
  - fastball 8y ago
    Bail bondsmen?
    - deelowe 8y ago
      I don't think people realize that when you pay a bondsman, you don't get that money back. Basically, you pay a bondsman to post bail for you. The bondsman then assumes the flight risk. Assuming you don't skip out of town, the bondsman gets to keep the money. Additionally, most jurisdictions don't allow you to post your own bail until certain conditions are met, but a bondsman can post bail immediately. This results in most people who are arrested having to pay a bondsman unless they are ok with sitting in jail a couple of days. I found myself in this exact situation when a clerical error caused my license to be suspended. I had to pay $700 just so I could go to work the next day. I never got that money back despite all charges being dropped. If I hadn't have had the $700 to pay the bondsman, I would have been stuck sitting in jail until I could have met with the right person (prosecutor?). This was going to take at a minimum, 2 days. Imagine being poor and in this situation.
Hnrobert42 8y ago
They should just have lower bail amounts.
- notriddle 8y ago
  Then people with enough money will just pay the bail and run.
dragonwriter 8y ago
> Instead of bail, they should just have steeper fines for failure to appear and yet on the flipside the same guarantees afforded to jury duty as far as employment (i.e. can't be fired for having to appear in court). There's already a fairly well proven alternative to cash bail used in D.C. and some other jurisdictions: if someone is bailable after assessment for flight risk, etc., they get appropriate conditions for pre-trial monitoring and supervision, as bail terms, with no cash payment.
briandear 8y ago
> Flight risk is really not as high as the system is designed for. Citation please?

by titzer 8y ago

mschuster91 8y ago

> Flight risk is really not as high as the system is designed for. The system is rigged against the minorities. Look why cannabis was criminalized in the first place - to target blacks and hippies (https://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/john-ehrlichman-richard-nixon-drug-war-blacks-hippie/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/john-ehrlichman-...). As a politician, keep as many of 'em in jails as you can, thus showing the white population you're "tough on crime" and at the same time filling the coffers of your private prison operator friends with state cash for the jailing.

dismantlethesun 8y ago
I have heard this and always wondered what exactly is keeping people from doing drugs with lessers sentencing? For example, if crack-cocaine carries a high sentence, then why not drop the habit in exchange for powdered cocaine? If the question is price, then this is really more of a system targeting the poor than one that is against any specific minority group.
- mschuster91 8y ago
  > If the question is price, then this is really more of a system targeting the poor than one that is against any specific minority group. Well, if the majority of poor people are blacks (and Latinos), then it certainly is a racist policy to have vastly different sentencing for the drugs for poor and rich people.
- moate 8y ago
  Crack is substantially cheaper to obtain than powdered cocaine. Crack is just powdered cocaine that's been cooked with other substances, essentially diluting it. The question is purely price, and it's the system targeting drug users of certain class/ethnic groups more than others. If you look at drug law enforcement in the US, it's substantially more punitive towards poor/minority groups.
  - moate 8y ago
    1- Can't imagine ya'll refute what crack is/the pricing of it since those are just objective facts. So, for anyone who's salty that the system is rigged against poor people/minorities: Citation A: https://www.vera.org/publications/for-the-record-public-health-justice-system-responses-opioid-crisis https://www.vera.org/publications/for-the-record-public-heal... Citation B: http://www.drugpolicy.org/issues/race-and-drug-war http://www.drugpolicy.org/issues/race-and-drug-war Citation C: https://www.aclu.org/files/FilesPDFs/ACF4F34.pdf https://www.aclu.org/files/FilesPDFs/ACF4F34.pdf Citation D: https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/06/28/the-war-on-drugs-is-a-war-on-minorities-and-the-poor/#5d4e5960624c https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/06/28/the-war-on-... I can do a the standard English alphabet, the Greek alphabet, simplified Chinese, Japanese kanji and any other alphabets you guys would like me to tack on with sources that state the same thing: The War On Drugs is a War on Poor People and Minorities.
StreamBright 8y ago
This white against minorities narrative breaks down once you understand that ~80% of minorities are DNC voters[1] and Bill Clinton was the number one guy who f*ed them over the most with the infamous Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994[2]. 1. http://www.people-press.org/2018/03/20/1-trends-in-party-affiliation-among-demographic-groups/2_3-14/ http://www.people-press.org/2018/03/20/1-trends-in-party-aff... 2. In a speech at an NAACP convention in Philadelphia in July, Clinton acknowledged that tougher incarceration provisions in the bill were a mistake. “I signed a bill that made the problem worse,” Clinton said. “And I want to admit it.” I think this issue has many different angles than just the usual whites vs. minorities.
- arethuza 8y ago
  How likely are those people to vote Republican though? If there is little change of that then introducing a harsh new law might win more votes than it would lose.
  - StreamBright 8y ago
    I am not sure, I just wanted to point out that this white vs minorities narrative is stupid. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jun/05/trump-prison-reform-first-step-act-tension https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jun/05/trump-prison...
    - dnomad 8y ago
      How is it a "narrative"? The widespread and coordinated use of drug laws to persecute minorities is a matter of historical fact. Are you disputing the historical facts? Are you familiar with the rigorous academic research on this subject? You might want to start here [1]. Calling something a "narrative" doesn't actually change anything, let alone the facts. [1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/680751.The_Marijuana_Conviction https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/680751.The_Marijuana_Con...
      - wang_li 8y ago

mantas 8y ago

Steeper fines for failure to appear is just pushing the goalpost.

Ntrails 8y ago

The problem with a fine for failure to appear is that you have to find the person to make them pay. The assumption being that if you're skipping out on a court case you're probably doing so with the intention of never attending, and a fine they can't enforce isn't going to make a difference. The logic behind bail is simple, you either show up to court or lose money that you cannot afford to lose. The incentives make sense at first glance.

kasey_junk 8y ago
The incentives for prosecutors though are off. They use high bail to leverage plea bargains & are judged on how well they accomplish that. Objective, non cash based determination of pretrial risk makes way more sense when judged through that lens.
- Ntrails 8y ago
  Completely agree, the article makes a nice coherent argument for why it's actually created a horrific situation for those near the poverty line.
- fastball 8y ago
  Bail bondsmen?
  - deelowe 8y ago
    I don't think people realize that when you pay a bondsman, you don't get that money back. Basically, you pay a bondsman to post bail for you. The bondsman then assumes the flight risk. Assuming you don't skip out of town, the bondsman gets to keep the money. Additionally, most jurisdictions don't allow you to post your own bail until certain conditions are met, but a bondsman can post bail immediately. This results in most people who are arrested having to pay a bondsman unless they are ok with sitting in jail a couple of days. I found myself in this exact situation when a clerical error caused my license to be suspended. I had to pay $700 just so I could go to work the next day. I never got that money back despite all charges being dropped. If I hadn't have had the $700 to pay the bondsman, I would have been stuck sitting in jail until I could have met with the right person (prosecutor?). This was going to take at a minimum, 2 days. Imagine being poor and in this situation.

Hnrobert42 8y ago

They should just have lower bail amounts.

notriddle 8y ago
Then people with enough money will just pay the bail and run.

dragonwriter 8y ago

> Instead of bail, they should just have steeper fines for failure to appear and yet on the flipside the same guarantees afforded to jury duty as far as employment (i.e. can't be fired for having to appear in court). There's already a fairly well proven alternative to cash bail used in D.C. and some other jurisdictions: if someone is bailable after assessment for flight risk, etc., they get appropriate conditions for pre-trial monitoring and supervision, as bail terms, with no cash payment.

briandear 8y ago

> Flight risk is really not as high as the system is designed for. Citation please?