7 ms·

Is the iconic Parisian bistro dying?

60 points by ohjeez 8y ago

Legogris 8y ago
> [E]very customer who crosses the threshold is greeted with a bright and cheerful ‘bonjour’ I have been to many bistros since moving to Paris in March. This bistro must be very, very different from others - unless the author is saying this just to reinforce their narrative and image of the bistro. Parisian waiters are notorious for being busy and hard to catch. That being said, it's still a very nice and iconic part of Paris and a good place to socialize. With all the tourism I doubt that we'll see a mass-closing of bistros. Changes in society, consumer habits and demography will of course drive change, though.
- Majestic121 8y ago
  It is pretty common to be greeted warmly once you are a regular. I have a few bistros where I am a regular, and in each the waiters are very friendly and welcoming. It might depend on the location, I tend to avoid places that are too touristic
- skywhopper 8y ago
  Interesting. Where are you from? I just got back from a tour around France, Germany, the UK, Belgium, and the Netherlands. While all European waiters are far less solicitous than the ones in the US, we found Paris to be the most welcoming and the restaurants there were the easiest to get the attention of the service staff in.
  - baxtr 8y ago
    Interesting. Where did you have your worst experience?
    - magic_beans 8y ago
      I've never had worse waiters than in Croatia. It's as if the servers hate the very plates they are holding. Or maybe they were all just badly hungover? The only good servers were in very small restaurants with a limited number of staff.
      - mattmanser 8y ago
        For me, Bulgaria. It was even hard just trying to get their attention to actually pay.
sonofblah 8y ago
That's funny--my impression is that it's a popular concept in America, and growing increasingly so, especially with the new-style Main St. (parodied on South Park and probably elsewhere). That may be more true in have versus have-not cities, though.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- bluedino 8y ago
  'Bistro' here just means a tiny restaurant with $9 sliders and red wine.
wink 8y ago
> serves French comfort foods at moderate prices, I don't know, when I first visited Paris while still in school I somehow didn't find a single one of those, and lived a few days off of ham baguettes, spring rolls from Asian takeaways and McDonald's - everything going for "normal food" was very, very expensive. Yes, this was a few years before mobile internet, and maybe it works if you live there not straight in the city center where the tourist attractions are ;) When I visited again last year I had no problem to find affordable food, but of course my viewpoint probably changed a bit.
- Mediterraneo10 8y ago
  > everything going for "normal food" was very, very expensive Almost anywhere in Paris you will find places where locals go for lunch, and they are not considered so expensive for middle-class workers. Locals are often paid Ticket Restaurant vouchers in addition to their salaries, and to retain these loyal customers these eateries keep the price of their daily set lunches fixed to the value of one voucher.
  - eldavido 8y ago
    This is why healthcare is so expensive btw. (I can't help but notice the similarities) Insurance hands out "tickets" that get redeemed by doctors. And as you rightly point out, everything gets warped and twisted based on what the payer (not necessarily the customer) wants.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - magic_beans 8y ago
      What are you even rambling on about?
      - VK538FY 8y ago
        I understand the parent's idea. An employer gives his employees Tickets Resto. It's a 'social advantage' that may cost the employer less than simply paying the employees more because exempt from certain social charges. As a result, there are more of these scriptural Tickets Resto floating about than real money that people want to spend on restaurant meals. Which could lead to an inflation of restaurant prices in a fashion not so different to the inflation of the prices of medical prestations paid by private insurance.
adultSwim 8y ago
The bistros set up for tourists with low quality food, often not made in-house, are doing way more damage than these other factors.
olivierlacan 8y ago
As a nearly lifelong Parisian, bistros are often seen by locals as overpriced (for the quality you get) low-effort joints where you regularly get frozen microwaved food (which led to a huge backlash in recent years) that tastes like shit, burnt cardboard-tasting espresso, and house wine that — while cheap — is closer to vinegar than a halfway decent red. There are of course a few exceptions to this rule in each neighborhood in Paris but they're incredibly hard to distinguish if you're not from here, which is probably what gives most bistros a bad reputation. The iconic Parisian bistro isn't dying, it's being thankfully renewed by younger chefs who don't take their customers for granted, are more welcoming to non-French-speaking tourists, and who showcase better and more seasonal products at a fairly reasonable price. Check out David Lebovitz' review of Bouillon Pigale as a prime example of affordable quality joints we'll thankfully get more of in the years to come as old and busted bistros fade away: https://www.davidlebovitz.com/bouillon-pigalle-paris-restaurant-bistro/ https://www.davidlebovitz.com/bouillon-pigalle-paris-restaur...
- bogomipz 8y ago
  >"The iconic Parisian bistro isn't dying, it's being thankfully renewed by younger chefs who don't take their customers for granted, are more welcoming to non-French-speaking tourists, and who showcase better and more seasonal products at a fairly reasonable price." Would you say this is also true of the brasserie?
  - olivierlacan 8y ago
    Sorry for the late reply, but in a way yes. I'm sort of feeling that movement. The problem is that Brasseries are huge operations and even the terrible ones must be fairly profitable. Evolving them must be seen as even more risky but I'm confident that some adventuring restaurateur and/or their investors will one day realize that a high quality brasserie with seasonal ingredients prepared in-house would have huge appeal both to tourists passing through Paris and locals, especially during off seasons — which are admittedly rare in Paris.
Mikeb85 8y ago
Parisian bistros aren't dying, they're just changing. Nowadays the bistros that Parisians actually frequent look more like a restaurant in Brooklyn or Portland, serving modern food for a decent price. The 'iconic' bistro is just a tourist trap serving shit food to unsuspecting tourists.
dawhizkid 8y ago
Haha...I’m reading this on my third day in Paris. Seems like bistros are still everywhere, but perhaps appealing to tourists now. I honestly haven’t had a good meal at a bistro while I’ve been here...they all are basically indistinguishable and the menus basically the same. Extremely mediocre for the price (at least 25-30 euros for one entree and one glass of bad house wine). At that price I could have a much much better meal in SF or NYC!
- polanon 8y ago
  Go there : Au Petit Fer à Cheval, 30 Rue Vieille du Temple, 75004 Paris, they are open in august. Order the duck :) Not a bistro but if you can go to Mumi it's worth it (14 rue Sauval, 75001)
motohagiography 8y ago
While not Paris, there may be a general market factor at play that doesn't make for punchy headlines. Things don't "disappear," they economically polarize to normal and inferior states. These bistros (as culture) are like newspapers and media in general, where a high quality middle ground is no longer viable, so only the very cheap, and the very expensive survive, and the middle is hollowed out. Arguably, a quality middle is the effect of a temporary distortion or disequllibrium, where for whatever reason, quality has not been optimized out of an attractive price point. A good middle quality bistro doesn't compete on marginal price, it seeks to differentiate itself on features. Customers become indifferent to the feature quality, select for price, and good places fail. When you add tourism, you add feature-indifferent customers who select on price - which is why locals hate them, as this indifference upsets the local equilibrium that made a good middle possible, and that hollows out their quality of life. The same quality is available, but it costs more to sustain because it has lost the price selecting customers, and must survive on a smaller population who values them. This was the big "race to the bottom" criticism of globalization in the 90s, where global competition ostensibly ended local ways of life by flooding markets with indifferent consumers of goods optimized for generic global markets. Polarization happens, and it's usually costly regulation that staves it off. France led the way with designation of origin (controlee?) trade rules, and banning the McDonald-ification of their cafes probably has precedent. Rents and real estate prices are the other key factor, where the risk/reward for anything but a proven franchise model is not a viable investment. San Francisco is a great example of that. It's not gentrified, it's globalized.
- stcredzero 8y ago
  Things don't "disappear," they economically polarize to normal and inferior states. I was just coming here to say this, just in less precise terms. I have a history of frequenting cafes as a regular, only to become disillusioned over time. A cafe has become either something which can be established for very little money and a modicum of knowledge or something which takes a certain level of fit and finish to appeal to a well heeled subgroup. Arguably, a quality middle is the effect of a temporary distortion or disequllibrium, where for whatever reason, quality has not been optimized out of an attractive price point. A good middle quality bistro doesn't compete on marginal price, it seeks to differentiate itself on features. So entrepreneurs should be on the lookout for the "quality middle" as a temporary market opportunity? Maybe this applies to some large fraction of all startups? It could be stated thus, "A shift in technology creates a new market opportunity for a 'quality middle' which hadn't existed before."
ousta 8y ago
They already disappeared save a few ones. As a lifelong Parisian as well I will tell you that most of the bistros are not bistros anymore. The quintessential experience that you can have in a parisian bistrot can only be lived in a very few places and to some people it will look like pedant. One example of a real parisian bistrot would be La Rotonde in Montparnasse, waiters are coming from schools where they learn their art (they re not some tatooed hipsters with man buns serving natural wines), real chiefs are cooking the food and the pastries, prices are still affordable for the middle class. this is for me the real parisian experience.

60 points by ohjeez 8y ago

> [E]very customer who crosses the threshold is greeted with a bright and cheerful ‘bonjour’ I have been to many bistros since moving to Paris in March. This bistro must be very, very different from others - unless the author is saying this just to reinforce their narrative and image of the bistro. Parisian waiters are notorious for being busy and hard to catch. That being said, it's still a very nice and iconic part of Paris and a good place to socialize. With all the tourism I doubt that we'll see a mass-closing of bistros. Changes in society, consumer habits and demography will of course drive change, though.

Majestic121 8y ago
It is pretty common to be greeted warmly once you are a regular. I have a few bistros where I am a regular, and in each the waiters are very friendly and welcoming. It might depend on the location, I tend to avoid places that are too touristic
skywhopper 8y ago
Interesting. Where are you from? I just got back from a tour around France, Germany, the UK, Belgium, and the Netherlands. While all European waiters are far less solicitous than the ones in the US, we found Paris to be the most welcoming and the restaurants there were the easiest to get the attention of the service staff in.
- baxtr 8y ago
  Interesting. Where did you have your worst experience?
  - magic_beans 8y ago
    I've never had worse waiters than in Croatia. It's as if the servers hate the very plates they are holding. Or maybe they were all just badly hungover? The only good servers were in very small restaurants with a limited number of staff.
    - mattmanser 8y ago
      For me, Bulgaria. It was even hard just trying to get their attention to actually pay.

sonofblah 8y ago

That's funny--my impression is that it's a popular concept in America, and growing increasingly so, especially with the new-style Main St. (parodied on South Park and probably elsewhere). That may be more true in have versus have-not cities, though.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
bluedino 8y ago
'Bistro' here just means a tiny restaurant with $9 sliders and red wine.

wink 8y ago

> serves French comfort foods at moderate prices, I don't know, when I first visited Paris while still in school I somehow didn't find a single one of those, and lived a few days off of ham baguettes, spring rolls from Asian takeaways and McDonald's - everything going for "normal food" was very, very expensive. Yes, this was a few years before mobile internet, and maybe it works if you live there not straight in the city center where the tourist attractions are ;) When I visited again last year I had no problem to find affordable food, but of course my viewpoint probably changed a bit.

Mediterraneo10 8y ago
> everything going for "normal food" was very, very expensive Almost anywhere in Paris you will find places where locals go for lunch, and they are not considered so expensive for middle-class workers. Locals are often paid Ticket Restaurant vouchers in addition to their salaries, and to retain these loyal customers these eateries keep the price of their daily set lunches fixed to the value of one voucher.
- eldavido 8y ago
  This is why healthcare is so expensive btw. (I can't help but notice the similarities) Insurance hands out "tickets" that get redeemed by doctors. And as you rightly point out, everything gets warped and twisted based on what the payer (not necessarily the customer) wants.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - magic_beans 8y ago
    What are you even rambling on about?
    - VK538FY 8y ago
      I understand the parent's idea. An employer gives his employees Tickets Resto. It's a 'social advantage' that may cost the employer less than simply paying the employees more because exempt from certain social charges. As a result, there are more of these scriptural Tickets Resto floating about than real money that people want to spend on restaurant meals. Which could lead to an inflation of restaurant prices in a fashion not so different to the inflation of the prices of medical prestations paid by private insurance.

adultSwim 8y ago

The bistros set up for tourists with low quality food, often not made in-house, are doing way more damage than these other factors.

olivierlacan 8y ago

As a nearly lifelong Parisian, bistros are often seen by locals as overpriced (for the quality you get) low-effort joints where you regularly get frozen microwaved food (which led to a huge backlash in recent years) that tastes like shit, burnt cardboard-tasting espresso, and house wine that — while cheap — is closer to vinegar than a halfway decent red. There are of course a few exceptions to this rule in each neighborhood in Paris but they're incredibly hard to distinguish if you're not from here, which is probably what gives most bistros a bad reputation. The iconic Parisian bistro isn't dying, it's being thankfully renewed by younger chefs who don't take their customers for granted, are more welcoming to non-French-speaking tourists, and who showcase better and more seasonal products at a fairly reasonable price. Check out David Lebovitz' review of Bouillon Pigale as a prime example of affordable quality joints we'll thankfully get more of in the years to come as old and busted bistros fade away: https://www.davidlebovitz.com/bouillon-pigalle-paris-restaurant-bistro/ https://www.davidlebovitz.com/bouillon-pigalle-paris-restaur...

bogomipz 8y ago
>"The iconic Parisian bistro isn't dying, it's being thankfully renewed by younger chefs who don't take their customers for granted, are more welcoming to non-French-speaking tourists, and who showcase better and more seasonal products at a fairly reasonable price." Would you say this is also true of the brasserie?
- olivierlacan 8y ago
  Sorry for the late reply, but in a way yes. I'm sort of feeling that movement. The problem is that Brasseries are huge operations and even the terrible ones must be fairly profitable. Evolving them must be seen as even more risky but I'm confident that some adventuring restaurateur and/or their investors will one day realize that a high quality brasserie with seasonal ingredients prepared in-house would have huge appeal both to tourists passing through Paris and locals, especially during off seasons — which are admittedly rare in Paris.

Mikeb85 8y ago

Parisian bistros aren't dying, they're just changing. Nowadays the bistros that Parisians actually frequent look more like a restaurant in Brooklyn or Portland, serving modern food for a decent price. The 'iconic' bistro is just a tourist trap serving shit food to unsuspecting tourists.

dawhizkid 8y ago

Haha...I’m reading this on my third day in Paris. Seems like bistros are still everywhere, but perhaps appealing to tourists now. I honestly haven’t had a good meal at a bistro while I’ve been here...they all are basically indistinguishable and the menus basically the same. Extremely mediocre for the price (at least 25-30 euros for one entree and one glass of bad house wine). At that price I could have a much much better meal in SF or NYC!

polanon 8y ago
Go there : Au Petit Fer à Cheval, 30 Rue Vieille du Temple, 75004 Paris, they are open in august. Order the duck :) Not a bistro but if you can go to Mumi it's worth it (14 rue Sauval, 75001)

motohagiography 8y ago

While not Paris, there may be a general market factor at play that doesn't make for punchy headlines. Things don't "disappear," they economically polarize to normal and inferior states. These bistros (as culture) are like newspapers and media in general, where a high quality middle ground is no longer viable, so only the very cheap, and the very expensive survive, and the middle is hollowed out. Arguably, a quality middle is the effect of a temporary distortion or disequllibrium, where for whatever reason, quality has not been optimized out of an attractive price point. A good middle quality bistro doesn't compete on marginal price, it seeks to differentiate itself on features. Customers become indifferent to the feature quality, select for price, and good places fail. When you add tourism, you add feature-indifferent customers who select on price - which is why locals hate them, as this indifference upsets the local equilibrium that made a good middle possible, and that hollows out their quality of life. The same quality is available, but it costs more to sustain because it has lost the price selecting customers, and must survive on a smaller population who values them. This was the big "race to the bottom" criticism of globalization in the 90s, where global competition ostensibly ended local ways of life by flooding markets with indifferent consumers of goods optimized for generic global markets. Polarization happens, and it's usually costly regulation that staves it off. France led the way with designation of origin (controlee?) trade rules, and banning the McDonald-ification of their cafes probably has precedent. Rents and real estate prices are the other key factor, where the risk/reward for anything but a proven franchise model is not a viable investment. San Francisco is a great example of that. It's not gentrified, it's globalized.

stcredzero 8y ago
Things don't "disappear," they economically polarize to normal and inferior states. I was just coming here to say this, just in less precise terms. I have a history of frequenting cafes as a regular, only to become disillusioned over time. A cafe has become either something which can be established for very little money and a modicum of knowledge or something which takes a certain level of fit and finish to appeal to a well heeled subgroup. Arguably, a quality middle is the effect of a temporary distortion or disequllibrium, where for whatever reason, quality has not been optimized out of an attractive price point. A good middle quality bistro doesn't compete on marginal price, it seeks to differentiate itself on features. So entrepreneurs should be on the lookout for the "quality middle" as a temporary market opportunity? Maybe this applies to some large fraction of all startups? It could be stated thus, "A shift in technology creates a new market opportunity for a 'quality middle' which hadn't existed before."

ousta 8y ago

They already disappeared save a few ones. As a lifelong Parisian as well I will tell you that most of the bistros are not bistros anymore. The quintessential experience that you can have in a parisian bistrot can only be lived in a very few places and to some people it will look like pedant. One example of a real parisian bistrot would be La Rotonde in Montparnasse, waiters are coming from schools where they learn their art (they re not some tatooed hipsters with man buns serving natural wines), real chiefs are cooking the food and the pastries, prices are still affordable for the middle class. this is for me the real parisian experience.