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I think there's a dangerous combination represented by the FPS Russia video with the drone-mounted gun. But instead of going for automatic fire, mount something

I think there's a dangerous combination represented by the FPS Russia video with the drone-mounted gun. But instead of going for automatic fire, mount something like a TrackingPoint computerized rifle instead. This combination could be made even more dangerous by emphasizing low noise and observability, perhaps by using ducted propellers and fixed wings. If such a drone were inaudbile from 3000 feet, it could amount to an undetectable assassination machine, requiring rich and powerful people to have a 24/7 team of anti-drone specialists. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/01/17000-linux-powered-rifle-brings-auto-aim-to-the-real-world/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/01/17000-linux-powered-... EDIT: Before you accuse me of making up fantasy weapons, you'd best read the above link, and the one below. Computer aimed firearms that perform at "sniper in a box" levels actually do exist. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/01/trackingpoint-shows-off-the-mile-maker-a-smart-rifle-with-1800-yard-range/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/01/trackingpoint-shows-...

bjt2n3904 8y ago
... Quick question. Have you ever shot a gun in real life, or developed an electromechanical system more complicated than an RC car? Because what you just described is a fantasy. What you described would be a perfect invention for Dr. Doofenshmirtz, or perhaps Wile E. Coyote. Inordinate amount of R&D effort, still doesn't work on the big day. The only thing it does is terrify people into making stupid legislation. Source: competed in several long range rifle matches, designed autonomous electromechanical systems
- 3pt14159 8y ago
  Yeah, aiming isn't easy. Dropping explosives is though.
  - stcredzero 8y ago
    True, but putting a bullet in one person is less likely to provoke a certain level of response. Drone bomb attacks are getting a bit too close to full warfare. A big enough drone-bomb is basically a cut-rate, very short-ranged cruise missile.
  - Meerax 8y ago
    Easy and I believe already being done in Syria. I'll have to find video links but it's not new at this point.
    - toomanybeersies 8y ago
      Drone bombs became one of the favourite attacks by IS militants during the Battle for Mosul. They are a remarkably effective terror weapon, as unlike car bombs, they aren't stopped by walls or barriers. By all accounts they weren't actually particularly effective at actually causing damage. They were basically dropping 40mm grenades (the kind used in under-barrel launchers like an M203) with fins attached. Here's a video released by IS showing them purportedly blowing up a humvee with a grenade dropped from a drone: https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-39092883/so-called-islamic-state-carried-out-drone-attacks https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-39092883/so-ca... Here's an article from the BBC with pictures of captured drones: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-38663394 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-38663394
- stcredzero 8y ago
  Have you ever shot a gun in real life Yes. In JROTC. developed an electromechanical system more complicated than an RC car? Before arduino was even a thing, I wrote a bit-banging controller for a converting tiltrotor VTOL. (We were using the GPIO of a "Gumstix" micro linux board to produce the PWM signals for something like 6 motors with partial automation to continuously mix the vertical-mode and horizontal modes of control, dependent on wing tilt, so bit-banging a microcontroller was the only way we could do it at the time.) The model tiltrotor project was headed by a friend whose father worked on the actual LTV XC-142, so it was quite complex. The complete tiltrotor never flew, but the "Gumstix" did fly on a delta wing plane. Because what you just described is a fantasy. More like fodder for near-future spy thriller Sci-fi, but it is well grounded in reality. The TrackingPoint rifles actually did work, and there is one with an 1800 yard range. The controller on a Linux system is the thing which actually pulled the trigger, relying on the operator to hold the rifle in the correct orientation. When it calculated there would be a hit, the computer pulled the trigger. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/01/trackingpoint-shows-off-the-mile-maker-a-smart-rifle-with-1800-yard-range/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/01/trackingpoint-shows-... Mounting such a device on a large enough drone should be well within the capability of folks like CIA contractors.
  - vonmoltke 8y ago
    > The TrackingPoint rifles actually did work, and there is one with an 1800 yard range. TrackingPoint is attaching a very sophisticated electronics package to an otherwise standard rifle. The 1800yd range is based on a .338 Lapua round. That round requires a pretty hefty platform to remain stable. > The controller on a Linux system is the thing which actually pulled the trigger, relying on the operator to hold the rifle in the correct orientation. When it calculated there would be a hit, the computer pulled the trigger. There are two problems with this on a drone: First, I don't see any information (understandably) about the allowable limits of muzzle motion for TrackingPoint. I suspect the system is tuned to correct the relatively small oscillations the muzzle goes through in the hands of a human shooter. I would love to see the drone platform that could hold a .338 rifle that steady half a mile in the air. Second, the system calculates the solution at the point of the trigger pull. There is a brief period between trigger pull and the round exiting the barrel where barrel movement can throw the round off. This is fine if the movement is predictable (as it would be for a trained human). I suspect a drone is going to struggle mightily with a .338's recoil.
- kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
  We have recoilless rifles and Gyrojet rocket propelled bullets. It wouldn't take a motivated organization much effort to apply these to a drone to improve stability.
  - PhasmaFelis 8y ago
    Is there reason to believe that gyrojets could be made practical? I was under the impression that there were fundamental flaws in the concept. A small-arms-caliber recoilless rifle could work really well on a drone, though.
    - Dancecity 8y ago
      Gyrojets never took off because of how expensive they are to produce compared to conventional ammo. ($10 vs $0.50) Their only advantages are gun size and recoil. Micro drone guns might actually be the one use case for gyrojets, because recoil and barrel weight are the most serious issues.
      - PhasmaFelis 8y ago
        I thought the major issue was that they were extremely vulnerable to being blown off course during the slow-moving launch phase. Basically, that even a mild crosswind would send it irretrievably askew. I assumed that the price issue could in theory be solved by mass production economies of scale, if the other issues could be sorted out.
  - stcredzero 8y ago
    There are serious challenges to making Gyrojet style rockets as accurate as rifle bullets. These haven't been solved at manufacturing scales, so snipers still use rifles after all these years. However, there have been demonstrations of a guided 0.50 caliber bullet. https://www.darpa.mil/news-events/2014-07-10 https://www.darpa.mil/news-events/2014-07-10
littlestymaar 8y ago
With a drone, what's the point being 1000m away ? You can put a few grams of explosive on a $30 nano-drone and detonate it right on the chest/head of your target. The “Slaughterbots”[1] video gives a good idea of what it could look like. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=191&v=9CO6M2HsoIA https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=191&v=9CO6M2HsoI...
- bufferoverflow 8y ago
  Cause drones can be jammed/blinded up close. It's much harder to defend from a bullet fired from a kilometer away.
  - tokyodude 8y ago
    Is it possible to jam the drones and not also end up jamming your own communications?
    - lx3459683 8y ago
      Realistically, a home built drone could be using anything for comms, including the civilian mobile networks or wifi band. Coupled with a tracking directional antenna, such a setup would be very difficult to detect or jam.
    - uabstraction 8y ago
      Yes. In its simplest form, radio jamming is just tramsmitting junk on the same frequency as the target. If you want to jam a couple kids using channel 10 on their FRS radios, all you need to do is put your own radio on that channel, ducttape down the push to talk button, and stick it in front of a laptop playing a 10 hour rick-roll video. Jamming RC aircraft, or GPS, or any other radio service is more or less the same in practice. The only difference is the type of transmitter you need to emit the jamming signal. Radio jamming can be as broadband or narrow band as you desire. The narrower the band you target, the less power you need. The catch is, 1) you need to know what frequency you are trying to jam, and 2) this is not at all legal, so it would probably only fly in the middle of a warzone.
rabbitonrails 8y ago
The FPS Russia video is a fake video / joke that you apparently failed to get.
- lostsock 8y ago
  Seems DW.com failed to spot that too...
- stcredzero 8y ago
  The FPS Russia video is a fake video / joke that you apparently failed to get. Your reading comprehension is poor. I'm only using the image as an icon/illustration to prime the discussion. The actual device I discuss is quite different.

bjt2n3904 8y ago

... Quick question. Have you ever shot a gun in real life, or developed an electromechanical system more complicated than an RC car? Because what you just described is a fantasy. What you described would be a perfect invention for Dr. Doofenshmirtz, or perhaps Wile E. Coyote. Inordinate amount of R&D effort, still doesn't work on the big day. The only thing it does is terrify people into making stupid legislation. Source: competed in several long range rifle matches, designed autonomous electromechanical systems

3pt14159 8y ago
Yeah, aiming isn't easy. Dropping explosives is though.
- stcredzero 8y ago
  True, but putting a bullet in one person is less likely to provoke a certain level of response. Drone bomb attacks are getting a bit too close to full warfare. A big enough drone-bomb is basically a cut-rate, very short-ranged cruise missile.
- Meerax 8y ago
  Easy and I believe already being done in Syria. I'll have to find video links but it's not new at this point.
  - toomanybeersies 8y ago
    Drone bombs became one of the favourite attacks by IS militants during the Battle for Mosul. They are a remarkably effective terror weapon, as unlike car bombs, they aren't stopped by walls or barriers. By all accounts they weren't actually particularly effective at actually causing damage. They were basically dropping 40mm grenades (the kind used in under-barrel launchers like an M203) with fins attached. Here's a video released by IS showing them purportedly blowing up a humvee with a grenade dropped from a drone: https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-39092883/so-called-islamic-state-carried-out-drone-attacks https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-39092883/so-ca... Here's an article from the BBC with pictures of captured drones: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-38663394 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-38663394
stcredzero 8y ago
Have you ever shot a gun in real life Yes. In JROTC. developed an electromechanical system more complicated than an RC car? Before arduino was even a thing, I wrote a bit-banging controller for a converting tiltrotor VTOL. (We were using the GPIO of a "Gumstix" micro linux board to produce the PWM signals for something like 6 motors with partial automation to continuously mix the vertical-mode and horizontal modes of control, dependent on wing tilt, so bit-banging a microcontroller was the only way we could do it at the time.) The model tiltrotor project was headed by a friend whose father worked on the actual LTV XC-142, so it was quite complex. The complete tiltrotor never flew, but the "Gumstix" did fly on a delta wing plane. Because what you just described is a fantasy. More like fodder for near-future spy thriller Sci-fi, but it is well grounded in reality. The TrackingPoint rifles actually did work, and there is one with an 1800 yard range. The controller on a Linux system is the thing which actually pulled the trigger, relying on the operator to hold the rifle in the correct orientation. When it calculated there would be a hit, the computer pulled the trigger. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/01/trackingpoint-shows-off-the-mile-maker-a-smart-rifle-with-1800-yard-range/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/01/trackingpoint-shows-... Mounting such a device on a large enough drone should be well within the capability of folks like CIA contractors.
- vonmoltke 8y ago
  > The TrackingPoint rifles actually did work, and there is one with an 1800 yard range. TrackingPoint is attaching a very sophisticated electronics package to an otherwise standard rifle. The 1800yd range is based on a .338 Lapua round. That round requires a pretty hefty platform to remain stable. > The controller on a Linux system is the thing which actually pulled the trigger, relying on the operator to hold the rifle in the correct orientation. When it calculated there would be a hit, the computer pulled the trigger. There are two problems with this on a drone: First, I don't see any information (understandably) about the allowable limits of muzzle motion for TrackingPoint. I suspect the system is tuned to correct the relatively small oscillations the muzzle goes through in the hands of a human shooter. I would love to see the drone platform that could hold a .338 rifle that steady half a mile in the air. Second, the system calculates the solution at the point of the trigger pull. There is a brief period between trigger pull and the round exiting the barrel where barrel movement can throw the round off. This is fine if the movement is predictable (as it would be for a trained human). I suspect a drone is going to struggle mightily with a .338's recoil.
kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
We have recoilless rifles and Gyrojet rocket propelled bullets. It wouldn't take a motivated organization much effort to apply these to a drone to improve stability.
- PhasmaFelis 8y ago
  Is there reason to believe that gyrojets could be made practical? I was under the impression that there were fundamental flaws in the concept. A small-arms-caliber recoilless rifle could work really well on a drone, though.
  - Dancecity 8y ago
    Gyrojets never took off because of how expensive they are to produce compared to conventional ammo. ($10 vs $0.50) Their only advantages are gun size and recoil. Micro drone guns might actually be the one use case for gyrojets, because recoil and barrel weight are the most serious issues.
    - PhasmaFelis 8y ago
      I thought the major issue was that they were extremely vulnerable to being blown off course during the slow-moving launch phase. Basically, that even a mild crosswind would send it irretrievably askew. I assumed that the price issue could in theory be solved by mass production economies of scale, if the other issues could be sorted out.
- stcredzero 8y ago
  There are serious challenges to making Gyrojet style rockets as accurate as rifle bullets. These haven't been solved at manufacturing scales, so snipers still use rifles after all these years. However, there have been demonstrations of a guided 0.50 caliber bullet. https://www.darpa.mil/news-events/2014-07-10 https://www.darpa.mil/news-events/2014-07-10

littlestymaar 8y ago

With a drone, what's the point being 1000m away ? You can put a few grams of explosive on a $30 nano-drone and detonate it right on the chest/head of your target. The “Slaughterbots”[1] video gives a good idea of what it could look like. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=191&v=9CO6M2HsoIA https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=191&v=9CO6M2HsoI...

bufferoverflow 8y ago
Cause drones can be jammed/blinded up close. It's much harder to defend from a bullet fired from a kilometer away.
- tokyodude 8y ago
  Is it possible to jam the drones and not also end up jamming your own communications?
  - lx3459683 8y ago
    Realistically, a home built drone could be using anything for comms, including the civilian mobile networks or wifi band. Coupled with a tracking directional antenna, such a setup would be very difficult to detect or jam.
  - uabstraction 8y ago
    Yes. In its simplest form, radio jamming is just tramsmitting junk on the same frequency as the target. If you want to jam a couple kids using channel 10 on their FRS radios, all you need to do is put your own radio on that channel, ducttape down the push to talk button, and stick it in front of a laptop playing a 10 hour rick-roll video. Jamming RC aircraft, or GPS, or any other radio service is more or less the same in practice. The only difference is the type of transmitter you need to emit the jamming signal. Radio jamming can be as broadband or narrow band as you desire. The narrower the band you target, the less power you need. The catch is, 1) you need to know what frequency you are trying to jam, and 2) this is not at all legal, so it would probably only fly in the middle of a warzone.

rabbitonrails 8y ago

The FPS Russia video is a fake video / joke that you apparently failed to get.

lostsock 8y ago
Seems DW.com failed to spot that too...
stcredzero 8y ago
The FPS Russia video is a fake video / joke that you apparently failed to get. Your reading comprehension is poor. I'm only using the image as an icon/illustration to prime the discussion. The actual device I discuss is quite different.