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> In the long run it should pay itself back. So in financial terms wouldn't this mean a rather weak profit margin? Plus the relatively high-risk that flood ene

> In the long run it should pay itself back. So in financial terms wouldn't this mean a rather weak profit margin? Plus the relatively high-risk that flood energy might not always result in free or negative energy prices gives it a bleak risk-to-profit ratio. In other words, there would always be something more utilizable to be done with excess energy (e.g. mining bitcoins etc. and buy water with it when you need it). PS: But I like the main point you make, to take in more aspects when calculating efficient renewable energy systems. Not a crypto-investor (or even believer).

DoctorOetker 8y ago
Right, I explicitly mentioned not really believing desalination to be a good example, I was using it more as a fake illustrative example. In hindsight I should have ended with posing the following question: how do we make a simple guide for factory/etc operators/consultants to recognize such steps in their production line? Desalination is a bad example, because you need a complete new plant, while it is conceivable that other products have one or more energy dense steps. What should such instructions look like? Follow the product through your production line, and at each step measure the energy consumed per part at the step, and the volume per part when efficiently stacked. Also note if the step is automated or needs a human, if it is human, check if it can be automated. If it is automatable, and the energy density for the step is high enough, calculate the cost for changing the production line, allocating sufficient storage, and possibly automating a certain task, and parallellizing the step such that it can be run during energy flood. Then calculate through the price difference how fast it pays itself back. Mention the importance of actually measuring the energy consumption, instead of just reading off a machine specification of wattage, and cycle time. Etc. Edit: The banks that wish to invest in cheapening such a step could train consultants and send them to factories interested in good deals. I.e. any potential profit is shared between company and bank, and the bank takes the risk (hence has the motivation to do the calculation properly, and will have best knowledge through experience of suitable step energy densities)
- theptip 8y ago
  I think the core of your idea would work well in theory; a much simpler example would be heating water, which both residential and commercial buildings do quite a lot. Once you have hot water, you can keep hold of it for quite a long time in a properly insulated tank. Or at a higher level of abstraction, instead of us trying to figure out which "energy dense step" is the right one to target, instead the grid can provide a real-time price signal that flexible loads can use to get a cheaper overall rate by selectively turning on when the demand is lower. This stuff is pretty well discussed under the umbrella of "smart grid" technologies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_grid#Market-enabling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_grid#Market-enabling

DoctorOetker 8y ago

Right, I explicitly mentioned not really believing desalination to be a good example, I was using it more as a fake illustrative example. In hindsight I should have ended with posing the following question: how do we make a simple guide for factory/etc operators/consultants to recognize such steps in their production line? Desalination is a bad example, because you need a complete new plant, while it is conceivable that other products have one or more energy dense steps. What should such instructions look like? Follow the product through your production line, and at each step measure the energy consumed per part at the step, and the volume per part when efficiently stacked. Also note if the step is automated or needs a human, if it is human, check if it can be automated. If it is automatable, and the energy density for the step is high enough, calculate the cost for changing the production line, allocating sufficient storage, and possibly automating a certain task, and parallellizing the step such that it can be run during energy flood. Then calculate through the price difference how fast it pays itself back. Mention the importance of actually measuring the energy consumption, instead of just reading off a machine specification of wattage, and cycle time. Etc. Edit: The banks that wish to invest in cheapening such a step could train consultants and send them to factories interested in good deals. I.e. any potential profit is shared between company and bank, and the bank takes the risk (hence has the motivation to do the calculation properly, and will have best knowledge through experience of suitable step energy densities)

theptip 8y ago
I think the core of your idea would work well in theory; a much simpler example would be heating water, which both residential and commercial buildings do quite a lot. Once you have hot water, you can keep hold of it for quite a long time in a properly insulated tank. Or at a higher level of abstraction, instead of us trying to figure out which "energy dense step" is the right one to target, instead the grid can provide a real-time price signal that flexible loads can use to get a cheaper overall rate by selectively turning on when the demand is lower. This stuff is pretty well discussed under the umbrella of "smart grid" technologies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_grid#Market-enabling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_grid#Market-enabling