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Though e-lisp is great and I appreciate the power and regularity of Emacs, Vi(m)'s mode-full, default cmd-mode editing that doesn't require ctrl + meta + esc le

Though e-lisp is great and I appreciate the power and regularity of Emacs, Vi(m)'s mode-full, default cmd-mode editing that doesn't require ctrl + meta + esc left_foot_pedal + wink-wink-nudge-nudge... seems so much nicer to me than insert-by-default editing - thank goodness there are vim plugins everywhere. The TRS-80 Level II line editor was very much in the spirit of "em", along with other BASICs of the day. And perhaps a nod to the even more cryptic Teco.

ubernostrum 8y ago
I'm always kind of curious about comments like this -- it seems everybody knows you have to play games of Twister and hit twelve control keys simultaneously to do even the most basic things in Emacs. But... I use Emacs. I've been using it for almost twenty years. And I'm struggling to think of anything I use regularly the involves hitting more than two total keys simultaneously (keys pressed in sequence obviously don't work as an argument, since that's also how you edit in Vim). I think the only one is query-replace, because it involves hitting Shift to compose the M-% combination. And I don't use a ton of custom keybindings, either. The only custom binding I use that's simpler than the default is goto-line, which I have bound to just M-g. Do people genuinely run into cases where they frequently have to be hitting 3+ keys simultaneously to use Emacs? Or is this just one of those "everybody knows" things that's actually completely false?
- ams6110 8y ago
  The default undo binding in emacs (C-_) takes three keys (control, shift, hyphen). I use that quite a bit, but I don't find it burdensome. I also map control to the caps-lock key on my keyboard.
  - ppseafield 8y ago
    C-/ is also bound to undo. :)
    - ubernostrum 8y ago
      Yeah, I use C-/, not C-_. Had forgotten the latter even existed, really.
- thelazydogsback 8y ago
  If it wasn't clear, it was hyperbole... It's just my personal preference that in general I don't like using modifier keys at all, as I will often mangle things, especially when switching between keyboards. The major factor though is the basic approach -- command by default, insert is sub-function (vi), vs. insert by default, command is sub-function (emacs). (I like to fiddle around and use the j/k or -/enter to move around in the file while I'm thinking w/o entering anything into the buffer...) I have respect for emacs die-hards - though I suppose that those who never leave and still do shell, email, news, web browsing, etc., from emacs are few and far between. As a lisp fan, the best of both worlds for me would probably be an emacs vi-mode with lisp programability - but I can't depend on such a thing everywhere
  - massysett 8y ago
    You want evil-mode.
    - lysium 8y ago
      Or spacemacs.
      - boomlinde 8y ago
        ... which uses needs evil-mode
        rini17 8y ago
        Evilmode is useless for long-time vim users with muscle memory. Things such as different behavior of ?<Up> or /<Up> are frustrating. Also many popular plugins (such as orgmode) interfere with evilmode. And movement between windows. And there's not even a consistent keystroke to close a window in emacs, and evilmode's mapping of q muddies the situation even further.
        boomlinde 8y ago
        I'm not sure why you're telling me this. I'm just pointing out that Spacemacs is not an alternative to evil-mode, since the latter is a fundamental part of the former.
- agumonkey 8y ago
  There's no single editor-personality. Some people hate vim default mode, they prefer emacs self-insert and accept the rest a 'sensical' gymnastics to do complex things. With time you end up enjoying both way of life, I despise some ergonomics of emacs, and I really love the crystalling side of vi command systems (it's almost a tiny algebra of text sculpting). but ..lisp. so emacs
- 3rdAccount 8y ago
  Emacs really hurts my hands. Maybe evil mode is for me? I like lisp and want to learn emacs, but vim seems more elegant when you don't need to write anything yourself.
  - kqr 8y ago
    On the contrary: with vim you have to write everything yourself over and over. With emacs you capture it in a Lisp function once and never write it again.
    - 3rdAccount 8y ago
      But using the alt and ctrl keys is super duper awkward.
      - scroot 8y ago
        Lots of Emacs people will map their caps-lock key to ctrl for this reason
      - kqr 8y ago
        If only this was a known problem people have solved! Oh, wait... If you like vi, Evil mode exists. If you like modal editing, God mode exists. If you like sequences, Hydra exists. If you like chords, remapping caps lock to control exists.
- AlexCoventry 8y ago
  Default bindings in spacemacs can get pretty long. E.g., the binding for `just-one-space` is `M-m x d <SPC>`.
  - ubernostrum 8y ago
    That's a sequence, though, right? Like, you aren't expected to hold Meta, m, x, d and SPC down simultaneously, you're pressing M-m, then x, then d, then SPC. Which is no different from some lengthy Vim command sequences. (and in GNU Emacs, just-one-space binds by default to M-SPC)
- u801e 8y ago
  > And I'm struggling to think of anything I use regularly the involves hitting more than two total keys simultaneously One I can think of is M-! (shell-command). I'm a vim user, and I frequently use the corresponding :r !some_command to read output from a shell command into the vim buffer.
  - Dylan16807 8y ago
    If you count shift then it's a matter of one modifier vs two which is honestly pretty small of a difference.
- meken 8y ago
  > Do people genuinely run into cases where they frequently have to be hitting 3+ keys simultaneously to use Emacs? Paredit mode has several useful ones for writing elisp. - C-M-f, C-M-b, and C-M-u (forward-sexp, back-sexp, and up-sexp) - C-( and C-) (barf and slurp commands) - C-M-k (kill-sexp) M-: (eval-expression in the minibuffer) is also a frequent command for me. I've overlaid several keys in the number row with Control and Alt, so they are nice to press with my middle and ring fingers (as opposed to pinkies). I've been meaning to write a blog post about this.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - omaranto 8y ago
    Only barf and slurp are paredit commands, the others you mentioned (the sexp motion and killing commands) are stock Emacs! (Well, by default C-M-u is bound to backward-up-list, either that's what you meant or paredit really defines a slightly different up-sexp commands. I don't remember right now.) The worst command I regularly use, in terms of number of modifiers, is definitely C-M-% for query-replace-regexp.
    - eatonphil 8y ago
      Yep, I use those movement commands for getting to the beginning or end of brackets when I edit JavaScript.
    - meken 8y ago
      That's four keystrokes. Impressive! I don't think there's a five-keystroke pattern.
- Lio 8y ago
  I think this is just one of those memes, like Vim being difficult to exit. It's OK for banter but not to be taken seriously. Vim itself has many corded commands which I find are especially useful in Insert and Ex mode. As a long time Vim user I know I'll probably never move to another editor like Emacs. That's because of familiarity with Vim and not because of any failing with Emacs shortcuts.
- omaranto 8y ago
  > Do people genuinely run into cases where they frequently have to be hitting 3+ keys simultaneously to use Emacs? Or is this just one of those "everybody knows" things that's actually completely false? Search and replace with regular expressions takes 4 keys in the default bindings! The command query-replace-regexp is bound to C-M-%, which means ctrl+alt+shift+5 on most keyboards. (To be fair, you can also replace alt with previously pressing esc, so "esc then ctrl+shift+5".)
tmalsburg2 8y ago
You can have Vim-style editing in Emacs via Evil mode. This way you get the best of both worlds. I used to be a hardcore Vim user for 10 years, switched to Emacs/Evil mode for Elisp, and never looked back.

ubernostrum 8y ago

I'm always kind of curious about comments like this -- it seems everybody knows you have to play games of Twister and hit twelve control keys simultaneously to do even the most basic things in Emacs. But... I use Emacs. I've been using it for almost twenty years. And I'm struggling to think of anything I use regularly the involves hitting more than two total keys simultaneously (keys pressed in sequence obviously don't work as an argument, since that's also how you edit in Vim). I think the only one is query-replace, because it involves hitting Shift to compose the M-% combination. And I don't use a ton of custom keybindings, either. The only custom binding I use that's simpler than the default is goto-line, which I have bound to just M-g. Do people genuinely run into cases where they frequently have to be hitting 3+ keys simultaneously to use Emacs? Or is this just one of those "everybody knows" things that's actually completely false?

ams6110 8y ago
The default undo binding in emacs (C-_) takes three keys (control, shift, hyphen). I use that quite a bit, but I don't find it burdensome. I also map control to the caps-lock key on my keyboard.
- ppseafield 8y ago
  C-/ is also bound to undo. :)
  - ubernostrum 8y ago
    Yeah, I use C-/, not C-_. Had forgotten the latter even existed, really.
thelazydogsback 8y ago
If it wasn't clear, it was hyperbole... It's just my personal preference that in general I don't like using modifier keys at all, as I will often mangle things, especially when switching between keyboards. The major factor though is the basic approach -- command by default, insert is sub-function (vi), vs. insert by default, command is sub-function (emacs). (I like to fiddle around and use the j/k or -/enter to move around in the file while I'm thinking w/o entering anything into the buffer...) I have respect for emacs die-hards - though I suppose that those who never leave and still do shell, email, news, web browsing, etc., from emacs are few and far between. As a lisp fan, the best of both worlds for me would probably be an emacs vi-mode with lisp programability - but I can't depend on such a thing everywhere
- massysett 8y ago
  You want evil-mode.
  - lysium 8y ago
    Or spacemacs.
    - boomlinde 8y ago
      ... which uses needs evil-mode
      - rini17 8y ago
        Evilmode is useless for long-time vim users with muscle memory. Things such as different behavior of ?<Up> or /<Up> are frustrating. Also many popular plugins (such as orgmode) interfere with evilmode. And movement between windows. And there's not even a consistent keystroke to close a window in emacs, and evilmode's mapping of q muddies the situation even further.
        boomlinde 8y ago
        I'm not sure why you're telling me this. I'm just pointing out that Spacemacs is not an alternative to evil-mode, since the latter is a fundamental part of the former.
agumonkey 8y ago
There's no single editor-personality. Some people hate vim default mode, they prefer emacs self-insert and accept the rest a 'sensical' gymnastics to do complex things. With time you end up enjoying both way of life, I despise some ergonomics of emacs, and I really love the crystalling side of vi command systems (it's almost a tiny algebra of text sculpting). but ..lisp. so emacs
3rdAccount 8y ago
Emacs really hurts my hands. Maybe evil mode is for me? I like lisp and want to learn emacs, but vim seems more elegant when you don't need to write anything yourself.
- kqr 8y ago
  On the contrary: with vim you have to write everything yourself over and over. With emacs you capture it in a Lisp function once and never write it again.
  - 3rdAccount 8y ago
    But using the alt and ctrl keys is super duper awkward.
    - scroot 8y ago
      Lots of Emacs people will map their caps-lock key to ctrl for this reason
    - kqr 8y ago
      If only this was a known problem people have solved! Oh, wait... If you like vi, Evil mode exists. If you like modal editing, God mode exists. If you like sequences, Hydra exists. If you like chords, remapping caps lock to control exists.
AlexCoventry 8y ago
Default bindings in spacemacs can get pretty long. E.g., the binding for `just-one-space` is `M-m x d <SPC>`.
- ubernostrum 8y ago
  That's a sequence, though, right? Like, you aren't expected to hold Meta, m, x, d and SPC down simultaneously, you're pressing M-m, then x, then d, then SPC. Which is no different from some lengthy Vim command sequences. (and in GNU Emacs, just-one-space binds by default to M-SPC)
u801e 8y ago
> And I'm struggling to think of anything I use regularly the involves hitting more than two total keys simultaneously One I can think of is M-! (shell-command). I'm a vim user, and I frequently use the corresponding :r !some_command to read output from a shell command into the vim buffer.
- Dylan16807 8y ago
  If you count shift then it's a matter of one modifier vs two which is honestly pretty small of a difference.
meken 8y ago
> Do people genuinely run into cases where they frequently have to be hitting 3+ keys simultaneously to use Emacs? Paredit mode has several useful ones for writing elisp. - C-M-f, C-M-b, and C-M-u (forward-sexp, back-sexp, and up-sexp) - C-( and C-) (barf and slurp commands) - C-M-k (kill-sexp) M-: (eval-expression in the minibuffer) is also a frequent command for me. I've overlaid several keys in the number row with Control and Alt, so they are nice to press with my middle and ring fingers (as opposed to pinkies). I've been meaning to write a blog post about this.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- omaranto 8y ago
  Only barf and slurp are paredit commands, the others you mentioned (the sexp motion and killing commands) are stock Emacs! (Well, by default C-M-u is bound to backward-up-list, either that's what you meant or paredit really defines a slightly different up-sexp commands. I don't remember right now.) The worst command I regularly use, in terms of number of modifiers, is definitely C-M-% for query-replace-regexp.
  - eatonphil 8y ago
    Yep, I use those movement commands for getting to the beginning or end of brackets when I edit JavaScript.
  - meken 8y ago
    That's four keystrokes. Impressive! I don't think there's a five-keystroke pattern.
Lio 8y ago
I think this is just one of those memes, like Vim being difficult to exit. It's OK for banter but not to be taken seriously. Vim itself has many corded commands which I find are especially useful in Insert and Ex mode. As a long time Vim user I know I'll probably never move to another editor like Emacs. That's because of familiarity with Vim and not because of any failing with Emacs shortcuts.
omaranto 8y ago
> Do people genuinely run into cases where they frequently have to be hitting 3+ keys simultaneously to use Emacs? Or is this just one of those "everybody knows" things that's actually completely false? Search and replace with regular expressions takes 4 keys in the default bindings! The command query-replace-regexp is bound to C-M-%, which means ctrl+alt+shift+5 on most keyboards. (To be fair, you can also replace alt with previously pressing esc, so "esc then ctrl+shift+5".)

tmalsburg2 8y ago

You can have Vim-style editing in Emacs via Evil mode. This way you get the best of both worlds. I used to be a hardcore Vim user for 10 years, switched to Emacs/Evil mode for Elisp, and never looked back.