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I created software that was used by call center agents to bid on “bathroom” break time slots and kept track of who was on break and actively punished those who

I created software that was used by call center agents to bid on “bathroom” break time slots and kept track of who was on break and actively punished those who didn’t follow the rules. It rewarded those that had higher performance and who took less breaks with higher priority. If an agent didn’t come back from their break a security guard would automatically be dispatched to find them. For the same company I also made software that reduced the same call agents to numbers and effectively automated the layoff/termination process. It would contact security with orders to have people escorted out, and had a sinister double verification process that would check to verify the agent was actually fired, or else the responsible security guard would be punished via the same point system. Everything was done via e-mail and would come from “System” and at the time used fancy HTML e-mail templates that looked official. I would frequently hear people talk about how they received a “System e-mail” with a chill in their voice, not knowing I was the one responsible. People who I ate lunch with sometimes didn’t even really know. Embedded in each e-mail was a count-down timer to create a sense of urgency to do whatever was being asked before a “punishment” was applied. After an agent had been terminated, their punishment points would decay over time until such a time they reached zero (or another configurable threshold depending on how desperate the company was for warm bodies), at which time they would be sent an e-mail to their personal e-mail (which was collected during the application process), inviting them to “re-apply”. Being an early telephony company we also would send them a robo-call with the “good news”. This process was known as a “life-cycle” and it was common in certain labor markets for employees to have many such lifecycles. Another way employees could stave off automated termination was to work for unpaid overtime, which offered to reduce their point values per unit of overtime worked. Everything was tracked to second granularity thanks to deep integration with phone switches and the adoption of the open source Asterisk CTI. This orwellian automation terrorized the poor employees who worked there for years, long after I left, before it was finally shut down by court order. I had designed it as a plug-in architecture and when it was shut down there were many additional features, orders, and punishment_types.

fao_ 8y ago
I have to ask, why did you choose to take the contract? Financial pressures? Or did you not feel that such a system is morally reprehensible? Personally while I'm opposed to programmer certification, systems like these certainly make me wish such a thing existed.
- fucking_tragedy 8y ago
  There will always be someone who can find a moral reason that such systems need to exist. Engineers build weapons, after all.
  - fao_ 8y ago
    But see, I can understand weapons building. The motivation is protective towards one's society, and that is the intended result, even if that might not be the actual case. Whereas the intention of building an oppressive system such as the one described above is, what, selfishness? Laziness? Programmers, because of the high-demand nature of our role, do not tend to be subject to the usual financial pressures that other communities are. I'm not sure what would motivate someone to build such a system as opposed to walking and finding a better job offer.
    - fucking_tragedy 8y ago
      > But see, I can understand weapons building. This is my point. Eventually someone will come in and say the system in the OP was necessary for the company to stay afloat, pay its employees or retain value for its retired shareholders.
      - chrismcb 8y ago
        There is a difference between defending your nation and defending your country. But in this particular case, some of the things described are actually illegal. While building a weapon is not necessarily illegal. Ignoring the ethical implications.
        krageon 8y ago
        There is not really all that much difference. Weapons are used to terrorise and murder people. What this person wrote will give some humans stress but it will never cause physical harm. That you think one is justified and the other is not has very little to do with their relative harm, which is by no means a solved problem or a given. It has to do with your view of it, and those views will differ between different people.
ibudiallo 8y ago
hmmmm, you and I need to have a little talk... Edit: Since I am getting downvoted, I will just add context -> https://idiallo.com/blog/when-a-machine-fired-me https://idiallo.com/blog/when-a-machine-fired-me I was on the other end of a similar system.
- vanattab 8y ago
  So your the one behind that story! Thanks for taking the time to write it I have always loved that story.
- himlion 8y ago
  I thought parent post was a clever reference to your post. On the other hand, somebody has to make these systems of course.
- tcgv 8y ago
  I read your post the other day and would definitely link it here if you hadn't done it already. The other side of the story xD
knuththetruth 8y ago
This is honestly the most horrifying post in this thread.
nitrogen 8y ago
There's a decent (fictional) short story about systems like this: http://marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm http://marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm
- ForHackernews 8y ago
  This isn't fiction anymore. Amazon uses systems essentially identical to this to manage their warehouse "pickers". Their performance is continuously tracked and they're retained or terminated based on those performance metrics.
hkai 8y ago
That looks pale in comparison to the Chinese employee tracking app Dingding. And it's becoming crazy popular. Your employer's mistake was working in the call center business, they should've sold your system instead.
brokenmachine 8y ago
Since you mentioned it in this thread, you clearly are aware that such a system is morally "challenged". How did you rationalize it to yourself? Was it something that started innocuous and evolved to become worse, or were you aware of how insidious it was from the start?
TeMPOraL 8y ago
Woah. That's just scary. Also: didn't know about the whole "life-cycle" thing before, is such re-use and re-termination of workers common in this industry? I often say that telemarketing should be considered a less honourable occupation than prostitution (in the latter case, you have two people voluntarily exchanging value; in the former case, you have one person trying to scam the other). Now I'm beginning to suspect it also has worse working conditions.
stealthmodeclan 8y ago
First i thought that this is scary but I've had many friends who told me that they they play games all day at their office and once boss called them in their cabin and they expected to be laid off but were given a small raise instead. "I take lots of cigarette and bathroom breaks to fix my makeup/hair and Snapchat my friends. I can't see myself working hard. I am not a sheep". Those are the exact words. This is a scene from a government organization in Romania. Now, i am in the US and I've not witnessed it here but here i am in executive role so i hangout with different people. I asked them why not do your job properly? They answered, if they are going to do their job then they'll most likely receive a promotion, raise and more responsibilities come with it. For them more money = more problem. They told me that for them money does not matter and all they want is experiencing different cultures, traveling etc... and work has no place in it. This is something I had never heard before! They somehow managed to rationalize not performing their jobs.
- dsego 8y ago
  This is a I believe a common sentiment in post-communist countries, esp. for anyone working for the state/city/municipality. It's normal for people to take a one or two hour break to go shop for groceries, or even leave at noon if they don't feel like working longer. There is even a common saying in ex-yu countries: “They can never pay me so little that I can't do even less work.” (sorry for the bad translation).
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- somethingsimple 8y ago
  I can relate. I work in the US by the way. I don't slack off, but I feel like there's a position as a Software Engineer past which I wouldn't want to be promoted. I see folks in the higher levels and the stuff they have to deal with has zero appeal to me. My salary and bonus at my current level are already more than enough to sustain my lifestyle and save plenty for retirement - I don't need more. A lot of people are attracted to the idea of "getting more responsibility", and they like the prestige/visibility that comes with a fancy (e.g. "Principal" or "Staff") title. Me, I just want to put in my hours solving problems and go home do something else.
chrismcb 8y ago
Isn't some of this illegal? Wishing OT for free sounds illegal. Some of the other items may also be illegal... Perhaps that is why it was shut down
- RugnirViking 8y ago
  Unpaid overtime is standard in nearly all salaried industries, unless you are getting paid by the the hour in the first place
golergka 8y ago
Why would you consider such a system unethical? As a customer constantly annoyed by laziness and incompetence of the low-level support employees, I can only thank you for working on such system.
ender89 8y ago
So basically it was inevitable that everyone who was hired would be fired by your robot?
gremlinsinc 8y ago
This totally sounds like 'Manna' the book by the creator of HowStuffWorks.
JonCloke 8y ago
You do realise that this actually makes you evil, don't you? Think about the numbers of parents unable to support kids because of what you did, people made ill or even killed by your programming of their behaviour. How does it feelto know that you certainly will have caused serious illness by what you did and very probably killed people?

fao_ 8y ago

I have to ask, why did you choose to take the contract? Financial pressures? Or did you not feel that such a system is morally reprehensible? Personally while I'm opposed to programmer certification, systems like these certainly make me wish such a thing existed.

fucking_tragedy 8y ago
There will always be someone who can find a moral reason that such systems need to exist. Engineers build weapons, after all.
- fao_ 8y ago
  But see, I can understand weapons building. The motivation is protective towards one's society, and that is the intended result, even if that might not be the actual case. Whereas the intention of building an oppressive system such as the one described above is, what, selfishness? Laziness? Programmers, because of the high-demand nature of our role, do not tend to be subject to the usual financial pressures that other communities are. I'm not sure what would motivate someone to build such a system as opposed to walking and finding a better job offer.
  - fucking_tragedy 8y ago
    > But see, I can understand weapons building. This is my point. Eventually someone will come in and say the system in the OP was necessary for the company to stay afloat, pay its employees or retain value for its retired shareholders.
    - chrismcb 8y ago
      There is a difference between defending your nation and defending your country. But in this particular case, some of the things described are actually illegal. While building a weapon is not necessarily illegal. Ignoring the ethical implications.
      - krageon 8y ago
        There is not really all that much difference. Weapons are used to terrorise and murder people. What this person wrote will give some humans stress but it will never cause physical harm. That you think one is justified and the other is not has very little to do with their relative harm, which is by no means a solved problem or a given. It has to do with your view of it, and those views will differ between different people.

ibudiallo 8y ago

hmmmm, you and I need to have a little talk... Edit: Since I am getting downvoted, I will just add context -> https://idiallo.com/blog/when-a-machine-fired-me https://idiallo.com/blog/when-a-machine-fired-me I was on the other end of a similar system.

vanattab 8y ago
So your the one behind that story! Thanks for taking the time to write it I have always loved that story.
himlion 8y ago
I thought parent post was a clever reference to your post. On the other hand, somebody has to make these systems of course.
tcgv 8y ago
I read your post the other day and would definitely link it here if you hadn't done it already. The other side of the story xD

knuththetruth 8y ago

This is honestly the most horrifying post in this thread.

nitrogen 8y ago

There's a decent (fictional) short story about systems like this: http://marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm http://marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm

ForHackernews 8y ago
This isn't fiction anymore. Amazon uses systems essentially identical to this to manage their warehouse "pickers". Their performance is continuously tracked and they're retained or terminated based on those performance metrics.

hkai 8y ago

That looks pale in comparison to the Chinese employee tracking app Dingding. And it's becoming crazy popular. Your employer's mistake was working in the call center business, they should've sold your system instead.

brokenmachine 8y ago

Since you mentioned it in this thread, you clearly are aware that such a system is morally "challenged". How did you rationalize it to yourself? Was it something that started innocuous and evolved to become worse, or were you aware of how insidious it was from the start?

TeMPOraL 8y ago

Woah. That's just scary. Also: didn't know about the whole "life-cycle" thing before, is such re-use and re-termination of workers common in this industry? I often say that telemarketing should be considered a less honourable occupation than prostitution (in the latter case, you have two people voluntarily exchanging value; in the former case, you have one person trying to scam the other). Now I'm beginning to suspect it also has worse working conditions.

stealthmodeclan 8y ago

First i thought that this is scary but I've had many friends who told me that they they play games all day at their office and once boss called them in their cabin and they expected to be laid off but were given a small raise instead. "I take lots of cigarette and bathroom breaks to fix my makeup/hair and Snapchat my friends. I can't see myself working hard. I am not a sheep". Those are the exact words. This is a scene from a government organization in Romania. Now, i am in the US and I've not witnessed it here but here i am in executive role so i hangout with different people. I asked them why not do your job properly? They answered, if they are going to do their job then they'll most likely receive a promotion, raise and more responsibilities come with it. For them more money = more problem. They told me that for them money does not matter and all they want is experiencing different cultures, traveling etc... and work has no place in it. This is something I had never heard before! They somehow managed to rationalize not performing their jobs.

dsego 8y ago
This is a I believe a common sentiment in post-communist countries, esp. for anyone working for the state/city/municipality. It's normal for people to take a one or two hour break to go shop for groceries, or even leave at noon if they don't feel like working longer. There is even a common saying in ex-yu countries: “They can never pay me so little that I can't do even less work.” (sorry for the bad translation).
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
somethingsimple 8y ago
I can relate. I work in the US by the way. I don't slack off, but I feel like there's a position as a Software Engineer past which I wouldn't want to be promoted. I see folks in the higher levels and the stuff they have to deal with has zero appeal to me. My salary and bonus at my current level are already more than enough to sustain my lifestyle and save plenty for retirement - I don't need more. A lot of people are attracted to the idea of "getting more responsibility", and they like the prestige/visibility that comes with a fancy (e.g. "Principal" or "Staff") title. Me, I just want to put in my hours solving problems and go home do something else.

chrismcb 8y ago

Isn't some of this illegal? Wishing OT for free sounds illegal. Some of the other items may also be illegal... Perhaps that is why it was shut down

RugnirViking 8y ago
Unpaid overtime is standard in nearly all salaried industries, unless you are getting paid by the the hour in the first place

golergka 8y ago

Why would you consider such a system unethical? As a customer constantly annoyed by laziness and incompetence of the low-level support employees, I can only thank you for working on such system.

ender89 8y ago

So basically it was inevitable that everyone who was hired would be fired by your robot?

gremlinsinc 8y ago

This totally sounds like 'Manna' the book by the creator of HowStuffWorks.

JonCloke 8y ago

You do realise that this actually makes you evil, don't you? Think about the numbers of parents unable to support kids because of what you did, people made ill or even killed by your programming of their behaviour. How does it feelto know that you certainly will have caused serious illness by what you did and very probably killed people?