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Isn't the anti-vaxxer craziness self defeating by definition? Eventually these people would die out leaving the reasonable ones to live in peace. Am I missing s

Isn't the anti-vaxxer craziness self defeating by definition? Eventually these people would die out leaving the reasonable ones to live in peace. Am I missing some obvious reason why we can't simply allow stupidity run its course?

colemickens 8y ago
Because I don't want my kids getting sick and dying because other peoples' ignorance negatively impacted herd immunity? edit: Just going to point this out: this comment thread has multiple instances of people on the anti-vax slant showing that they either don't understand what herd immunity is, or don't understand that vaccinations are not 100% and are only effective on large populations due to herd immunity. Again, I argue that education would make the anti-vax problem go away.
walrus01 8y ago
Sadly, no, because lack of herd immunity will hurt everyone else as well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLUzwT9tWxY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLUzwT9tWxY
CapitalistCartr 8y ago
Herd immunity. "Herd immunity is a form of indirect protection from infectious disease that occurs when a large percentage of a population has become immune to an infection, thereby providing a measure of protection for individuals who are not immune." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity
- lucas_membrane 8y ago
  Yes, and vaccines that are very much less than 100% effective can protect an entire population if the vaccination rate is close to 100%.
- Chris_Chambers 8y ago
  If strangers must die in order for us to live in a world where we can raise our children however we want, so be it. Their deaths indicate weak genetics that should be flushed from the gene pool anyway. Mewling, limp-wristed, hapless techno-weenies will never understand this.
fragsworth 8y ago
The main problem I think the author of the article is trying to convey is that a lack of rational discussion may end up leading us to a situation where we potentially harm people with vaccines because we are shutting down any real understanding about the risks. And then the result of that would be a ton of new anti-vaxxers, which would be bad for everyone.
oh-kumudo 8y ago
Their craziness spread like mental epidemic, eventually, it becomes a new bread of identity politics. They will plague, they will survive.
- dogma1138 8y ago
  It’s already a new breed of identity politics, anti-vaxxers are the left’s climate change deniers.
  - tomjakubowski 8y ago
    US anti-vaxxers trend white and wealthy. It is in no way a "left" movement. Unlike with climate change denial, there is no major political party in the US which has integrated anti-vax into their platform. It is an insanity fully removed from the US political spectrum.
    - dogma1138 8y ago
      Sorry but of anti-vaxxers as well as the anti-GMO crowd is a predominantly left leaning group politically, even more so in the US.
  - krapp 8y ago
    >anti-vaxxers are the left’s climate change deniers They would be, if all anti-vaxxers were leftists, or if the anti-vax movement were politically and ideologically motivated by leftist politics the way that climate change denial is by the right, but no. Sometimes equivocation works, but in this case it doesn't.
    - dogma1138 8y ago
      It’s true that it’s not as entrenched in the party platform as climate change however if you look at the supporters of the anti-vaxxer and anti-GMO movements you’ll find that they lean overwhelmingly liberal.
lkbm 8y ago
A few possibilities: 1. Vaccines aren't 100% effective. Unvaccinated people are a threat to vaccinated people. 2. Vaccines aren't an option for 100% of people. People who choose not to vaccinated people are a threat to people who can't be safely vaccinated. 3. Information, including misinformation, spreads more quickly than death does. It won't die out due to natural selection. 4. Losing half our population to infectious disease, even if you consider them stupid and irresponsible, would have catastrophic effects for the economy. 5. A majority of the effected population are children. 6. Maybe, just maybe, letting millions of people just die of preventable disease, even if they're adults and made a foolish decision, isn't the right thing to do.
defen 8y ago
Anti-vaxx is probably culturally transmitted, not genetic. Either way, most unvaccinated people don't die of contagious diseases, so it won't "naturally" burn itself out.
dogma1138 8y ago
We survived without vaxines or antibiotics otherwise we wouldn’t be here. There is no indication that this lunacy is in any way shape and form is genetic. Also the irony is that the vast majority of anti-vaxxers are vaccinated they will sadly survive their children might not but due to the sanitary conditions and herd immunity of western countries we will need a much larger portion of the population to be unvaccinated before we see major negative effects. This is why we often see outbreaks in various spots that host large immigrant populations which are more likely to have lower percentage of vaccinated adults and even host asymptomatic carriers.
pjc50 8y ago
A) I'd rather fix the problem in my lifetime B) more seriously, antivax is a symptom; the real disease is memetic. At some point people gave up on fact-finding processes and the value of expertise. That is a disease vector where social media is the cholera-ridden communal water pump. Some of the things it spreads are harmless (moon landing denial) and some are even more dangerous than anti-vax, such as holocaust denial and sandy hook "paid actor" lies.
- walrus01 8y ago
  Growing up in the 1980s I never thought I'd see a world where a sizable percentage of people both believe that we never landed on the moon, that the earth is flat, and that vaccines are a mind-control plot by some shadowy cabal of "globalists".
  - hueving 8y ago
    And you still haven't. Unless "sizeable percentage" is less than 5%. There have always existed morons. The internet has just shown light on what was once restricted to rumor mills.
    - pjc50 8y ago
      Try 50%. https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/moon-landing-celebrates-47th-anniversary-8446862 https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/moon-landing-celebrate... (Of course, that's assuming the survey and reporting are reliable ...)
  - basementcat 8y ago
    I find it fascinating that the people (that I know) who have these beliefs cut across all economic, educational and cultural backgrounds.
- WalterSear 8y ago
  You are assuming that superstition and mass hysteria are new phenomenon. What's new is the internet.
darpa_escapee 8y ago
If someone didn't want to feed their kid, you could use the same logic. Most people don't want someone else's kid to suffer because their parents are willful idiots. Most people don't want to get sick, either.
cies 8y ago
You get labeled anti-vax for just not wanting to follow the gov't imposed schedule. Many are merely critical of vaccines, and prefer the schedule of Scandinavian countries, Singapore, Japan or Israel. Here a graph that visualizes the number of vaccines (US highest with 36, lowest have 11) children <6 should have gotten by schedule. It is understandable that many in the US are asking questions with that number of vaccines while some of the most developed nations do with so few, and seem to have a much better public health care system. I think Finnish health care is good enough for me and any children I may have. I prefer 11 shots over 36. Am I now an anti-vaxxer? Well, I've been called one many times, but I do not think so myself. I'm critical of any chemical that goes in my (child's) body. E-numbers, supplements, air quality, pesticides, BPAs and vaccines as well. http://vactruth.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/number-vaccines.jpg http://vactruth.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/number-vaccin... (I did not read any info from this website, just foud the image by ggl image search)
- tialaramex 8y ago
  Yes, you're anti-vax because you share misinformation on this topic and try to pretend that rather than irrational fears you're spreading "truths". That chart is garbage, the main thing they've done is sort a column chart by height with the implication that this signifies something, but it doesn't. The US has higher than expected childhood and especially infant mortality because it deliberately doesn't provide decent healthcare to a substantial fraction of its population. If anything the US has lower than desirable rates of vaccination, which is why it keeps having problems with outbreaks of preventable diseases.
  - cies 8y ago
    All I'm saying is that I'd rather go with the scandinavians when it come to a health care protocol that involves shooting substances in the veins of young children. I'm certainly afraid the US has the public health care system that is most "lobbied" by pharma, and the scandinavians have one that is most impartial.
  - cies 8y ago
    But good point about the extra data in the chart, I replaced it with a chart only shows one data point.
s73v3r_ 8y ago
No. The problem with that, along with many libertarian beliefs, is that people do not exist in a vacuum. Their actions can and do affect others who had nothing to do with their decision. Take the measles outbreak that happened at Disneyland a few years ago, or the whooping cough outbreak in SV. Those affected children other than the ones who's parents didn't vaccinate.
- hueving 8y ago
  A libertarian view would allow you to take legal action against people putting your kids at risk. Don't strawman that which you do not understand.
berbec 8y ago
The problem is the non-children-of-crazys, too young to get their MMR vaccines, are going to die of Measles.
yongjik 8y ago
Morality aside, the concept of "herd immunity" means it works differently. A society (or, a population group) allowing anti-vaxxer nonsense is self-defeating because their people will die out while a neighboring society that does not tolerate such nonsense will live on and prosper. Yes, this is a comically simplistic view, and shouldn't be taken seriously. I'm just pointing out that the pseudo-Darwinian "let them die" rhetoric actually means "let us die".

colemickens 8y ago

Because I don't want my kids getting sick and dying because other peoples' ignorance negatively impacted herd immunity? edit: Just going to point this out: this comment thread has multiple instances of people on the anti-vax slant showing that they either don't understand what herd immunity is, or don't understand that vaccinations are not 100% and are only effective on large populations due to herd immunity. Again, I argue that education would make the anti-vax problem go away.

walrus01 8y ago

Sadly, no, because lack of herd immunity will hurt everyone else as well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLUzwT9tWxY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLUzwT9tWxY

CapitalistCartr 8y ago

Herd immunity. "Herd immunity is a form of indirect protection from infectious disease that occurs when a large percentage of a population has become immune to an infection, thereby providing a measure of protection for individuals who are not immune." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity

lucas_membrane 8y ago
Yes, and vaccines that are very much less than 100% effective can protect an entire population if the vaccination rate is close to 100%.
Chris_Chambers 8y ago
If strangers must die in order for us to live in a world where we can raise our children however we want, so be it. Their deaths indicate weak genetics that should be flushed from the gene pool anyway. Mewling, limp-wristed, hapless techno-weenies will never understand this.

fragsworth 8y ago

The main problem I think the author of the article is trying to convey is that a lack of rational discussion may end up leading us to a situation where we potentially harm people with vaccines because we are shutting down any real understanding about the risks. And then the result of that would be a ton of new anti-vaxxers, which would be bad for everyone.

oh-kumudo 8y ago

Their craziness spread like mental epidemic, eventually, it becomes a new bread of identity politics. They will plague, they will survive.

dogma1138 8y ago
It’s already a new breed of identity politics, anti-vaxxers are the left’s climate change deniers.
- tomjakubowski 8y ago
  US anti-vaxxers trend white and wealthy. It is in no way a "left" movement. Unlike with climate change denial, there is no major political party in the US which has integrated anti-vax into their platform. It is an insanity fully removed from the US political spectrum.
  - dogma1138 8y ago
    Sorry but of anti-vaxxers as well as the anti-GMO crowd is a predominantly left leaning group politically, even more so in the US.
- krapp 8y ago
  >anti-vaxxers are the left’s climate change deniers They would be, if all anti-vaxxers were leftists, or if the anti-vax movement were politically and ideologically motivated by leftist politics the way that climate change denial is by the right, but no. Sometimes equivocation works, but in this case it doesn't.
  - dogma1138 8y ago
    It’s true that it’s not as entrenched in the party platform as climate change however if you look at the supporters of the anti-vaxxer and anti-GMO movements you’ll find that they lean overwhelmingly liberal.

lkbm 8y ago

A few possibilities: 1. Vaccines aren't 100% effective. Unvaccinated people are a threat to vaccinated people. 2. Vaccines aren't an option for 100% of people. People who choose not to vaccinated people are a threat to people who can't be safely vaccinated. 3. Information, including misinformation, spreads more quickly than death does. It won't die out due to natural selection. 4. Losing half our population to infectious disease, even if you consider them stupid and irresponsible, would have catastrophic effects for the economy. 5. A majority of the effected population are children. 6. Maybe, just maybe, letting millions of people just die of preventable disease, even if they're adults and made a foolish decision, isn't the right thing to do.

defen 8y ago

Anti-vaxx is probably culturally transmitted, not genetic. Either way, most unvaccinated people don't die of contagious diseases, so it won't "naturally" burn itself out.

dogma1138 8y ago

We survived without vaxines or antibiotics otherwise we wouldn’t be here. There is no indication that this lunacy is in any way shape and form is genetic. Also the irony is that the vast majority of anti-vaxxers are vaccinated they will sadly survive their children might not but due to the sanitary conditions and herd immunity of western countries we will need a much larger portion of the population to be unvaccinated before we see major negative effects. This is why we often see outbreaks in various spots that host large immigrant populations which are more likely to have lower percentage of vaccinated adults and even host asymptomatic carriers.

pjc50 8y ago

A) I'd rather fix the problem in my lifetime B) more seriously, antivax is a symptom; the real disease is memetic. At some point people gave up on fact-finding processes and the value of expertise. That is a disease vector where social media is the cholera-ridden communal water pump. Some of the things it spreads are harmless (moon landing denial) and some are even more dangerous than anti-vax, such as holocaust denial and sandy hook "paid actor" lies.

walrus01 8y ago
Growing up in the 1980s I never thought I'd see a world where a sizable percentage of people both believe that we never landed on the moon, that the earth is flat, and that vaccines are a mind-control plot by some shadowy cabal of "globalists".
- hueving 8y ago
  And you still haven't. Unless "sizeable percentage" is less than 5%. There have always existed morons. The internet has just shown light on what was once restricted to rumor mills.
  - pjc50 8y ago
    Try 50%. https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/moon-landing-celebrates-47th-anniversary-8446862 https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/moon-landing-celebrate... (Of course, that's assuming the survey and reporting are reliable ...)
- basementcat 8y ago
  I find it fascinating that the people (that I know) who have these beliefs cut across all economic, educational and cultural backgrounds.
WalterSear 8y ago
You are assuming that superstition and mass hysteria are new phenomenon. What's new is the internet.

darpa_escapee 8y ago

If someone didn't want to feed their kid, you could use the same logic. Most people don't want someone else's kid to suffer because their parents are willful idiots. Most people don't want to get sick, either.

cies 8y ago

You get labeled anti-vax for just not wanting to follow the gov't imposed schedule. Many are merely critical of vaccines, and prefer the schedule of Scandinavian countries, Singapore, Japan or Israel. Here a graph that visualizes the number of vaccines (US highest with 36, lowest have 11) children <6 should have gotten by schedule. It is understandable that many in the US are asking questions with that number of vaccines while some of the most developed nations do with so few, and seem to have a much better public health care system. I think Finnish health care is good enough for me and any children I may have. I prefer 11 shots over 36. Am I now an anti-vaxxer? Well, I've been called one many times, but I do not think so myself. I'm critical of any chemical that goes in my (child's) body. E-numbers, supplements, air quality, pesticides, BPAs and vaccines as well. http://vactruth.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/number-vaccines.jpg http://vactruth.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/number-vaccin... (I did not read any info from this website, just foud the image by ggl image search)

tialaramex 8y ago
Yes, you're anti-vax because you share misinformation on this topic and try to pretend that rather than irrational fears you're spreading "truths". That chart is garbage, the main thing they've done is sort a column chart by height with the implication that this signifies something, but it doesn't. The US has higher than expected childhood and especially infant mortality because it deliberately doesn't provide decent healthcare to a substantial fraction of its population. If anything the US has lower than desirable rates of vaccination, which is why it keeps having problems with outbreaks of preventable diseases.
- cies 8y ago
  All I'm saying is that I'd rather go with the scandinavians when it come to a health care protocol that involves shooting substances in the veins of young children. I'm certainly afraid the US has the public health care system that is most "lobbied" by pharma, and the scandinavians have one that is most impartial.
- cies 8y ago
  But good point about the extra data in the chart, I replaced it with a chart only shows one data point.

s73v3r_ 8y ago

No. The problem with that, along with many libertarian beliefs, is that people do not exist in a vacuum. Their actions can and do affect others who had nothing to do with their decision. Take the measles outbreak that happened at Disneyland a few years ago, or the whooping cough outbreak in SV. Those affected children other than the ones who's parents didn't vaccinate.

hueving 8y ago
A libertarian view would allow you to take legal action against people putting your kids at risk. Don't strawman that which you do not understand.

berbec 8y ago

The problem is the non-children-of-crazys, too young to get their MMR vaccines, are going to die of Measles.

yongjik 8y ago

Morality aside, the concept of "herd immunity" means it works differently. A society (or, a population group) allowing anti-vaxxer nonsense is self-defeating because their people will die out while a neighboring society that does not tolerate such nonsense will live on and prosper. Yes, this is a comically simplistic view, and shouldn't be taken seriously. I'm just pointing out that the pseudo-Darwinian "let them die" rhetoric actually means "let us die".