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Why Westerners Fear Robots and the Japanese Do Not

155 points by imartin2k 8y ago

mjevans 8y ago
Fearing oppression is not a bad thing and I strongly believe that we must be careful to recognize intelligent life in many forms and afford all such life equal terms* (where possible). Science fiction writers and probably more academic thinkers have probed at how compatible 'alien' life is with existing life. The ethical and practical balancing acts and ability for different forms of life to peacefully co-exist (or at least recognize that it isn't possible and amicably remain outside of the best environments for other life). I believe there would be less to fear if it were more clear that everyone of all types of 'being someone' had equal standing and a place that they enjoyed being within society.
swerveonem 8y ago
Westerners, I think that is an overly broad class.
CM30 8y ago
Hmm, not sure I agree with the logic here. Firstly, slavery is not exactly something that's rare outside of 'Western' civilisation and (unfortunately) dates back to the near beginning of human society, with examples in basically every culture under the sun. If this 'fear of robots' really was connected to slavery, you'd expect that to be a theme across Africa, South America and the Middle East as much as it is against 'Western' societies. Heck, you'd expect themes of robot uprisings and being overthrown by their creations to be common in all kinds of deeply unequal societies if that's where the idea originated from. Where are all the Terminator esque franchises coming from South Africa or Saudi Arabia or what not? I also question whether the following is accurate as well: 1. Whether Western works are more likely to have killer robots/robot uprisings than Japanese ones. 2. Whether Western society in general really shows more fear of robots. 3. Whether other societies are more likely to see themselves as 'part' of nature rather than something beyond it. For the former, well there are quite a few works made in Japan with the plot revolving around killer robots or what not, just as there are quite a few works made in 'Western' societies featuring heroic or everyday robots. How many examples would we need to make a judgement one way or the other? If you're going on examples you know, well perhaps Japanese robot stories have robots turn evil more because they're 'hacked' than because they turn against humanity of their own accord. I mean, that's the setup for basically every Mega Man game. Plus the setup for last year's The Legend of Zelda Breath of the Wild. Either way, the concepts aren't exactly exclusive to one or another, as these pages show: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TurnedAgainstTheirMasters https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TurnedAgainstThe... https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RobotWar https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RobotWar It's also questionable whether the portrayals of robots in culture (or the sensationalist journalism seen online) really means that one society fears robots and intelligent machines more than another. Perhaps the general concept is just kind of interesting/entertaining, in the same sense as a medieval fantasy story involving a hero taking down some demonic monster is. And the latter... well I'm not convinced by that either. Seems like a cliche you see in all kinds of media about how 'closer to nature' less developed tribes are or what not. Either way, not convinced by this article at all.
- mr_toad 8y ago
  The fictional theme of a robot uprising predates the first real-world robots. In fact, we get the name from that fiction, and the name robot literally means slave. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/R.U.R https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/R.U.R. And there are plenty of examples of creatures turning against their masters in othe cultures; genies, golems and zombies are a few examples.
  - CM30 8y ago
    That's a good point. The theme of creatures turning against their masters long predates robots, and is a pretty common theme when you've got a work about artificial life being created.
titanix2 8y ago
The whole post looks like written by a Japanese-American trying to fuse nationalist ideas (some superiority of Japan over the Western world) with neo-marxist theory ("oppressed" machines). For example "The Western concept of “humanity” is limited" is totally ironical when we talk about a culture that have categories such as non-human (heta), burakumin, kitsune-mochi, zainichi (Korean) that are still discriminated a lot on a day to day basis. I have no time (nor willingness) to deconstruct everything, but the only decent idea to keep is indeed the one in the title: Japan fear way less technology. The same apply about AI, not just robot.
faragon 8y ago
Well, maybe westerns not exposed to Asimov's novels directly nor indirectly. Anyway, in such a globalized world, I'm, not sure how right could be that: E.g. Japanese anime is very popular in Europe and America.
fhood 8y ago
"The West, the professor contended, has a problem with the idea of things having spirits and feels that anthropomorphism, the attribution of human-like attributes to things or animals, is childish, primitive, or even bad. He argued that the Luddites who smashed the automated looms that were eliminating their jobs in the 19th century were an example of that, and for contrast he showed an image of a Japanese robot in a factory wearing a cap, having a name and being treated like a colleague rather than a creepy enemy." I'm sorry, but that is a stupid statement. First, westerners have no issue with anthropomorphizing (it's a word if I want it to be) inanimate objects. We do it all the damn time. My roomba is named Lenny (hard working, but not too bright). Second, how on earth is this a valid comparison? "Just look at the facts guys! The luddites destroyed machines that in one fell swoop eliminated the livelihood of a significant portion of people, and this robot has a hat!"
- kdl20kxkrk 8y ago
  That’s one anecdote There’s a real history to the argument in the article Numerous scholars have advocated that to remain objective one must avoid putting human traits on objects of study I think it stems from Abrahimic traditions, where God made us and none of us are to presume to be as powerful. Animals and objects are treated as mere things. Look at hardliners destroying art that has human form. The general story being God made us and we are inferior and must not resort to offending him with crude reproductions, lest he smite us for thinking we can do better.
  - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
    >"and must not resort to offending him with crude reproductions" // It's not about reproductions (which are clearly impossible), but about images and sycophantic replacements. The imagery thing leads to a specific materialism; the replacement leads to us designing a god to reflect and applaud our ethical failings. Like turning to porn and eschewing one's duty to one's wife; or choosing an inanimate character as one's wife and imbuing her with a fetish for your own failings "I love your flab, the way you stink of stale beer and sweat really turns me on". FWIW in Abramic tradition animals are creatures made by God that humans are entrusted to care for, and yes use as food; custodians of creation. Your presentation looks like an inference of the created order based on looking at people's actions. Like watching traffic to find what the traffic laws are; that's a flawed methodology.
pitaj 8y ago
I'm trying to find statistics in the article but I'm having trouble. Does the article give any evidence that Westerners actually do fear robots more than the Japanese do?
- nubbins 8y ago
  No, and I’m pretty sure the article fails to make its point. Even if westerners did fear robots more this is the kind of vague “because its their culture” argument you are taught not to make in Anthro 101. There are almost always more proximate causes for what we label “culture”.
Florin_Andrei 8y ago
Is there any consciousness in that thing? Are the lights on in there? If yes, then the robot should be treated according to how conscious it is. If no, it's a toaster, throw it on the garbage heap when not needed anymore. "How much consciousness is in there" is the right question to ask in many situations involving difficult decisions, such as robot rights, animal rights, abortion, capital punishment, etc. Unfortunately, it is also one of the most difficult questions you could possibly ask.
wnsire 8y ago
This article was absolutely awful to read. The reason "Westerners" fear Robots and Japanese do not is definitely cultural , but not in the same way. Mostly for "Westerner" , it's related to the fear of losing their Job. Per say , just look at Autonomous Car. Truck driver is of the most occupied job in the US and potentially it's one of the most replaceable by using AI and Robotics. That's just the tip of the iceberg , what about McDonalds ? Domino's ? Both with their thousands of cashier , delivery guys and cooks ? That's what people fear , not this gimmick of "Terminator" based on some BS "Christian" culture. On top of that , when you know the American culture is almost entirely based on "Fast Money" for venture capitals it raise some concerns about the security and the effectiveness of those robots. Especially seeing how much accidents have happened with "Semi Autonomous" cars or the horrible accident that killed a pedestrian at full speed by Uber[0]. Most importantly , Japan is a declining country from a demographic perspective. Robots are needed for them to survive and stay productive and occupy jobs that very little people would accept to do these days in their culture. This demographic decline is not happening in "Western Civilization" due to important amount of immigration. Either of "Talents" ( Engineers , Doctors...) or Students , who later stay in the country and eventually create a family there. Ultimately having for effect to maintain the demography of "Western Civilization", Japan claimed many times to be hostile to this form of growth , therefore the need for robot and the mindset of not being "scared" by robots as they are key for both their economy and their culture . Ultimately making those robots a sign a of "hope" and not a "threat". [0]https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2018/05/29/why-ubers-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2018/05/29/...
rm_-rf_slash 8y ago
This article is a little too high minded and academic to take seriously. Non-tech people don’t usually think about robotic rights or AI slavery unless they’ve been watching a dystopian Sci-fi film recently. Here’s my two American cents: In the United States, if you’re poor, society says it’s your fault and you’re on your own. If you can’t get a leg up on the economic ladder because the burger-flipping jobs were replaced by robots, you’d have every right to fear them. I can’t speak for Japan but it is my understanding that society is more group-oriented there, and social spending and government priorities appear to reflect that. So even if a robot takes your job, you may have a better chance at making a decent living some other way than you might in the West.
- darpa_escapee 8y ago
  > robotic rights or AI slavery These are popsci topics, they're touched upon all of the time in fiction and I'd hardly say they're too academic of topics to approach in such an article.
- pbhjpbhj 8y ago
  >"If you can’t get a leg up on the economic ladder because the burger-flipping jobs were replaced by robots, you’d have every right to fear them." // Fear? Hate them, for sure; decry them, but fear? Doesn't make sense to me -- perhaps I'm wired differently to the majority, but it looks like something other than fear.
aylmao 8y ago
Focusing primarily on Japan vs the US, I'd argue there's two other factors that might be as big: economics and individualism. - Japan process of modernization much more recently and revolved more around technology companies. In the US, it happened earlier, and around other industries: it could be the case the admiration for technology has died out more. Also, Japan is an island, so self-sustainability is difficult-- robots not only help but will probably become necessary as the population ages. In the US, robots are associated with job loss. - Individualism and the concept of free will has a higher priority in the US. Americans are obsessed with choice and it permeates thought: from fast-food restaurants with with "make your own" takes, to the autonomy states have, to the whole of the "American Dream". "Free will" is so revered that the idea of an entity without it is probably more foreign.
- majormajor 8y ago
  > Japan process of modernization much more recently and revolved more around technology companies. In the US, it happened earlier, and around other industries: it could be the case the admiration for technology has died out more. I'd argue there's a subtler reading here. What makes a "technology company" changes over time. Railroad companies were very much technology companies. Consider https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Machine_in_the_Garden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Machine_in_the_Garden : "The title of the book refers to a trope in American literature representing the interruption of pastoral scenery by technology due to the industrialization of America during the 19th and 20th century." We don't consider railroads to be tech anymore, but they absolutely were at the time. Later on, cable companies were technology companies. Hugely innovative and disruptive to the existing TV market, yet forty years later they're already has-been dinosaurs. So I would definitely agree with the idea that the US has seen this cycle a few times, and has done the enchanted->cynical cycle a few times.
  - jpindar 8y ago
    It makes me sad that "technology" went from rockets and robots and lasers... to web pages.
- malloryerik 8y ago
neuralRiot 8y ago
Probably the reasons are not that deep. In the "western" (USA?) the aspiration for any manufacturer is to secure a defense contract so any "robot" is seen as a potential weapon, that is more evident from the cold war onwards. Now we're seeing that it was not far from truth, any new technology is aimed to surveillance and security.
throaway030818 8y ago
>Followers of Shinto, unlike Judeo-Christian monotheists and the Greeks before them, do not believe that humans are particularly “special.” Instead, there are spirits in everything, [...] "Empedocles [says that the soul] is composed of all the elements and that each of them actually is a soul [...]" (Aristotle, De Anima, 404b11) "All things are full of gods." (Thales. From Aristotle, De Anima, 411a) "Now consider all the stars and the moon and the years and the months and all the seasons: what can we do except repeat the same story? A soul or souls...have been shown to be the cause of all these phenomena, and whether it is by their living presence in matter...or by some other means, we shall insist that these souls are gods. Can anybody admit all this and still put up with people who deny that 'everything is full of gods'?" (Plato, Laws, 899b) "Animals and plants come into being in earth and in liquid because there is water in earth, and pneuma in water, and in all pneuma is vital heat, so that in a sense all things are full of soul [...]" (Aristotle, Generation of Animals, 762a18-20)
- ethbro 8y ago
  How many Greek deities were non-anthropomorphic?
  - YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago
    That doesn't make any difference. The article claims that animistic beliefs are absent from Greek thought. The OP quotes four examples that very clearly say they are instead embraced by the most prominent Greek philosophers, like, ever. As to the belief that humans are "special" - well, you only have to look at the philosophy of the cynics, like Diogenes (the most prominent cynic of all). Or, to the legend of Hades and how the dead are shades without personality or memory- including the most important personnages like heroes and kings (in the Odyssey, Ulysses indulges in a bit of necromancy and calls forth Achiles' shade, by offering it blood from a sacrifice. The poet explains that the blood reminds the dead of who they were in the land of the living. When the rite is over, they go back to being person-less shades). Hardly a "humans are special" kind of vibe, there. In Greek mythology, Gods are special. Humans, not so much. Unless they're heroes, which means, invariably, humans descended from the gods.
decacorn 8y ago
Uh well, as a Westerner I'm not afraid of robots because of awesome Japanese anime like EVANGELION, patlabor, gundam, macross, voltron, eureka, list goes on and on.
internet_user 8y ago
I am an American, and I do not fear my Roomba.
- dchess 8y ago
  I don't. Who knows what that little maniac is up to? I mean, why is he mapping my house? My dog knows what's up. He is not a fan of Roomba.
- gerdesj 8y ago
  I'm a Brit. I grew up watching Doctor Who (Tom Baker and on). It never occurred to me as a child that Daleks can't climb stairs. Besides the Cybermen have legs and are pretty unpleasant as well. One evening, you'll leave your Roomba happily running around in the living room, downstairs, and wake up to it bumping into a leg on your bed ... upstairs. I'll fear your Roomba for you: I've seen what happened to Skaros.
brownbat 8y ago
> While Japan had what could be called slavery, it was never at an industrial scale. The "but it wasn't industrial” is a vague and arbitrary line. Yes, the Western slave trade was massively horrific and incomparable. But in context the sentence is suggesting the Japanese don't have a deep understanding of being oppressors or oppressed, which doesn't withstand a glance at history. The burakumin, minority groups like the Ainu, Korean relations under Hideyoshi where they collected Korean ears and noses, or in WWII with the system of comfort women... Japan wasn't somehow immune to the forces that lead to oppression between groups. More broadly the whole article seems premised on the fact that there's some prominent Western sci fi Frankenstein stories, like Terminator, and some notable anime about cyborgs. But Japan has Frankenstein stories too. Some of the most famous sci fi out of Japan is about how science and technology is dehumanizing. And Western sci fi is obsessed with Frankenstein stories, at least partly as an accident of literary history, because Frankenstein itself just grabbed hold of the popular imagination in an era where Gothic horror was popular and scientific ideas were gaining traction. Asimov has a few rants against Frankenstein stories, and most of the original I Robot stories are an attempt at an antidote. Worth actually reading if you want something different. He had to work really hard to make something different, suggesting the reason so many authors keep repeating the same stories about evil robots might be more just because they are lazy rather than tapping into something profound.
- repsilat 8y ago
  > Frankenstein stories Funnily enough, this idea -- the meme of "Frankenstein" being about the perils of science or technology -- is totally at odds with the book itself. Popular culture has obviously not had much contact with the original text. In the book, Frankenstein's monster was the good guy -- he was clever, sensitive and persecuted for his humanity. The lesson of the book was about the judgemental inhumanity of society, not the danger of progress. It warns against the fear of the unknown -- the opposite of the popular understanding. It's nothing at all like Terminator.
  - majos 8y ago
    The real-world popular mistaken impression of Frankenstein's monster ("an abomination!") is the same as the in-novel popular mistaken impression of Frankenstein's monster. This is a neat trick.
jpatokal 8y ago
"We Japanese" -- that's the key phrase that indicates this is the latest in a long line of Nihonjinron (Japanese people theories), about how 110m people all share an ineffable characteristic that makes them oh so very different from the rest of the world. I really didn't expect this from Joi Ito though... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihonjinron https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihonjinron
- gerdesj 8y ago
  ... and not a particularly good one either: Followers of Shinto, unlike Judeo-Christian monotheists and the Greeks before them That's a funny way to divide up the world into us and them. It looks more like us == Japan and them == US. The writer seems to miss out the Roman influence that might traditionally be shoehorned into the "western" God Squad history. Not to mention a dalliance with dollops of assorted "pagan" traditions and mythology. To be fair, I consider this sort of thing as a form of national pride which should be respected when listened to but needs careful consideration. Bear in mind I come from the country that can play "Land of Hope and Glory" or "Jerusalem" without flinching.
  - empath75 8y ago
    Not to mention the Greek influence on Buddhism and vice versa. They were entirely isolated from each other.
- GuiA 8y ago
  Fantastic comment. The feedback loop between some Japanese people arguing that Japanese culture is unique in some fundamental and unique way amongst all other human culture, and non Japanese people lapping it up, is a little insane.
  - luckydata 8y ago
    yes, however... have you seen Japan? It's not that hard to believe there's some insane cultural trait that's fundamental to Japan since their society is so inscrutable and profoundly weird. p.s.: I used to work for a Japanese company, I have first hand experience :)
PhasmaFelis 8y ago
Some of the earliest homegrown Japanese sci-fi prominently featured heroic, humanlike robots. I wonder to what extent that was a symptom of existing attitudes vs. a cause of later ones.
- krapp 8y ago
  > I wonder to what extent that was a symptom of existing attitudes vs. a cause of later ones. Very likely, given that Astro Boy started soon after the end of World War 2. I can imagine that themes of using technology for good rather than harm were appealing to a country that had just seen what harm technology could do first hand.
nice_byte 8y ago
I feel the need to say that (spoiler warning) everyone who watched Neon Genesis Evangelion knows that Evas are, in fact, not robots.
binarynate 8y ago
tl;dr: https://youtu.be/ZdDHi5SSIlM?t=17s https://youtu.be/ZdDHi5SSIlM?t=17s
ggregoire 8y ago
Japanese would be scared too if they watched what Boston Dynamics is working on.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
mindslight 8y ago
There is a lot of wisdom in this article, but its paradigm has an overt blind spot regarding "robots" [0] that are able to completely dominate humans and even society. I'm not worried that an "enslaved" AI underclass is going to rebel and "overthrow me" [1]. I'm immediately concerned about this AI "underclass" controlling me at the behest of other humans. In the long term I am worried about Homo Sapiens being obsoleted by another organism, because I am a Homo Sapien. Kindness is a charity afforded to the dominant life form, one which I recommend everybody partake in whenever they can (why I started off saying there's a lot of wisdom in the article). But kindness does not extrapolate to capitulation where my very existence is threatened. From a Western-individualist viewpoint, I'd counter that Japan is more accepting of AI as it fits right in with a top-down structured society and a shared cultural trust that the people (/systems) "above oneself" are purposeful and not malevolent [2]. [0] Even talking in terms of "robots" is misleading, as what we're really talking about is AI. [1] and referencing the USian Original Sin won't make me shy away and bend the knee. [2] Sorry for the laid-bare flame bait. I do not have the luxury of an editor to massage my comment to couch cultural stereotypes in the appropriate amount of beating around the bush and self-flagellation.
ddmma 8y ago
Technofobia at breakfast, your milk and cereals are processed by thousands of machines already similar to the one you hold in your hand right now
ddmma 8y ago
Technophobia at breakfast, your milk and cereals are processed by thousands of machines already similar to the one you hold in your hand right now
tylerjwilk00 8y ago
I think a big factor in the attitude differences between Western and Eastern societies comes from the chronological order of industrialization. The West were the fore runners of industrialization and seen first hand the bad (old guard job loss, environmental impact, deadly accidents). Of course the price paid by the bad paved the way for the positive (economic supremacy). The economic positive from technological progress is far more apparent from the outside (East) looking in. The (West) memory of the early years and negatives creeped into the culture. While the East mostly noticed the shiny shores of economic progress and relatively recently. None of this is to say that the East is not having their own moment of the perils technological industrialization. Perhaps the East's view of technology will become less idealised in the future.
aaron695 8y ago
This entire article is total junk, Wired has totally jumped the shark. It just makes stuff up at every turn, it doesn't understand Japanese history, Western history, current Western culture or current Japanese culture. Slavery was of course rife in Japan and did the writer skip WW2 when they learned history, you shouldn't hold a person to their countries past but if you did, Japan was horrific in devaluing human life. But more importantly the Japanese DON'T have the exposure to robots that Westerners do. Because Westerners use them much more often. Japan still uses Fax machines, it took years after the west to get ebooks. The little restaurants often wash dishes by hand a unheard of practice in the West. They use humans over traffic lights. But given the entire title is junk, I've never heard of Westerner's "fearing robots", so it's hard to see any value in the article at all.
hevi_jos 8y ago
As others have noted, the Japanese have their fair share of criminality and violence against other groups of people on more recent times than slavery in the US. About the damage to the environment, here the Japanese also have their own share. If "feeling all one with the environment" includes fishing salmon in deep waters until they had been almost extincted, or whales or dolphins' slaughter on the beach, Japanese does not look special over any other groups in the world. From my point of view, the difference in perception about robots is that they need them: they are getting old and someone or something must do the jobs. In places like India there is so much people that robots become a real threat against people's jobs. In Japan if they do not use them, they will be dissapear as a nation.
vitoc 8y ago
At first glance, I thought the title might be better with the use of "but" in place of "and", as in "Why Westerners Fear Robots but the Japanese Do Not"...
kiriakasis 8y ago
> Followers of Shinto, unlike Judeo-Christian monotheists and the Greeks before them, do not believe that humans are particularly “special.” Instead, there are spirits in everything, rather like the Force in Star Wars. Nature doesn’t belong to us, we belong to Nature, and spirits live in everything, including rocks, tools, homes, and even empty spaces. To me this looks like the most important paragraph. The west (and I believe also China, India, Russia, and arab countries) do lack a vision of different being coexisting. Eventually we (and based on some popular light novel for boys, also china) have a vision of a Natural World in balance and Humans acting (either positively or negatively) on this balance. This does not mean that we would hate robots or even aliens, just that we would (at a superficial level) need to shoehorn them into being either humans or not.
Kagerjay 8y ago
Whats interesting as well is that Japanese culture is very traditonal. The cultural mindset to not adopt technology was there in the past. One example that comes to mind is Japanese houdewives and dishwashers. The reason for this is they take great pride in their housewife role, and dishwashers take away that. This might no longer be true but according to articles Ive read it was from year 2000 to 2012 when i first heard about it. Meanwhile in America this stigma never was as prevalent as in Japan during the same timeframe
xtiansimon 8y ago
Japanese society has been described as a homogeneous society--lacking, suspicious, distrustful of difference. Whats more, there is interesting research on social psycholgy of Wheat People vs. Rice People [1]: "[Rice People] are more likely to understand themselves as interwoven with other people — as interdependent, not independent. In such social worlds, your goal is to fit in and adjust yourself to others, not to stand out." With this social distinction in mind I am of a mind to think Japanese society's fear response to robots is a dialog or binary opposition. Humans who act like robots vs robots who act like humans. Personally, I'm not fearful of robots who act human. I'm fearful of robot actors shaping human society in their image while being controled by a new class of technological oligarchs. Humans dominating humans through robot proxy. The truest statement in this Wired article occurs at the start: "The Western concept of “humanity” is limited, and I think it’s time to seriously question whether we have the right to exploit the environment, animals, tools, or robots simply because we’re human and they are not." The author _sets us up_ with this self-recflection of human hubris, and then launches into a love letter of Japanese social acceptance of a nostalgic cartoon character Astroboy. Fooey! [1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/04/opinion/why-are-some-cultures-more-individualistic-than-others.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/04/opinion/why-are-some-cult...
bachbach 8y ago
I'm not liking the off the cuff 'white man' references I keep seeing out of Silicon Valley related networks. The meaning is identical to "the Jews" in context. This forum has a serious problem. I think I'm more likely to get kicked off it for pointing out this form of bigotry than the people using it as a commonplace. My former comment which will probably also be flagged for review is pointing out that the URL references child prostitution but submission comments appear more worried with the website's GDPR implementation. So Daniel/Scott - you should be talking to Ycombinator about the failures of self regulation because neither of these situations is the kind that gets less toxic. Wisdom of crowds this isn't.
mastahsplintah 8y ago
Robots comin for you

155 points by imartin2k 8y ago

Fearing oppression is not a bad thing and I strongly believe that we must be careful to recognize intelligent life in many forms and afford all such life equal terms* (where possible). Science fiction writers and probably more academic thinkers have probed at how compatible 'alien' life is with existing life. The ethical and practical balancing acts and ability for different forms of life to peacefully co-exist (or at least recognize that it isn't possible and amicably remain outside of the best environments for other life). I believe there would be less to fear if it were more clear that everyone of all types of 'being someone' had equal standing and a place that they enjoyed being within society.

swerveonem 8y ago

Westerners, I think that is an overly broad class.

CM30 8y ago

Hmm, not sure I agree with the logic here. Firstly, slavery is not exactly something that's rare outside of 'Western' civilisation and (unfortunately) dates back to the near beginning of human society, with examples in basically every culture under the sun. If this 'fear of robots' really was connected to slavery, you'd expect that to be a theme across Africa, South America and the Middle East as much as it is against 'Western' societies. Heck, you'd expect themes of robot uprisings and being overthrown by their creations to be common in all kinds of deeply unequal societies if that's where the idea originated from. Where are all the Terminator esque franchises coming from South Africa or Saudi Arabia or what not? I also question whether the following is accurate as well: 1. Whether Western works are more likely to have killer robots/robot uprisings than Japanese ones. 2. Whether Western society in general really shows more fear of robots. 3. Whether other societies are more likely to see themselves as 'part' of nature rather than something beyond it. For the former, well there are quite a few works made in Japan with the plot revolving around killer robots or what not, just as there are quite a few works made in 'Western' societies featuring heroic or everyday robots. How many examples would we need to make a judgement one way or the other? If you're going on examples you know, well perhaps Japanese robot stories have robots turn evil more because they're 'hacked' than because they turn against humanity of their own accord. I mean, that's the setup for basically every Mega Man game. Plus the setup for last year's The Legend of Zelda Breath of the Wild. Either way, the concepts aren't exactly exclusive to one or another, as these pages show: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TurnedAgainstTheirMasters https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TurnedAgainstThe... https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RobotWar https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RobotWar It's also questionable whether the portrayals of robots in culture (or the sensationalist journalism seen online) really means that one society fears robots and intelligent machines more than another. Perhaps the general concept is just kind of interesting/entertaining, in the same sense as a medieval fantasy story involving a hero taking down some demonic monster is. And the latter... well I'm not convinced by that either. Seems like a cliche you see in all kinds of media about how 'closer to nature' less developed tribes are or what not. Either way, not convinced by this article at all.

mr_toad 8y ago
The fictional theme of a robot uprising predates the first real-world robots. In fact, we get the name from that fiction, and the name robot literally means slave. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/R.U.R https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/R.U.R. And there are plenty of examples of creatures turning against their masters in othe cultures; genies, golems and zombies are a few examples.
- CM30 8y ago
  That's a good point. The theme of creatures turning against their masters long predates robots, and is a pretty common theme when you've got a work about artificial life being created.

titanix2 8y ago

The whole post looks like written by a Japanese-American trying to fuse nationalist ideas (some superiority of Japan over the Western world) with neo-marxist theory ("oppressed" machines). For example "The Western concept of “humanity” is limited" is totally ironical when we talk about a culture that have categories such as non-human (heta), burakumin, kitsune-mochi, zainichi (Korean) that are still discriminated a lot on a day to day basis. I have no time (nor willingness) to deconstruct everything, but the only decent idea to keep is indeed the one in the title: Japan fear way less technology. The same apply about AI, not just robot.

faragon 8y ago

Well, maybe westerns not exposed to Asimov's novels directly nor indirectly. Anyway, in such a globalized world, I'm, not sure how right could be that: E.g. Japanese anime is very popular in Europe and America.

fhood 8y ago

"The West, the professor contended, has a problem with the idea of things having spirits and feels that anthropomorphism, the attribution of human-like attributes to things or animals, is childish, primitive, or even bad. He argued that the Luddites who smashed the automated looms that were eliminating their jobs in the 19th century were an example of that, and for contrast he showed an image of a Japanese robot in a factory wearing a cap, having a name and being treated like a colleague rather than a creepy enemy." I'm sorry, but that is a stupid statement. First, westerners have no issue with anthropomorphizing (it's a word if I want it to be) inanimate objects. We do it all the damn time. My roomba is named Lenny (hard working, but not too bright). Second, how on earth is this a valid comparison? "Just look at the facts guys! The luddites destroyed machines that in one fell swoop eliminated the livelihood of a significant portion of people, and this robot has a hat!"

kdl20kxkrk 8y ago
That’s one anecdote There’s a real history to the argument in the article Numerous scholars have advocated that to remain objective one must avoid putting human traits on objects of study I think it stems from Abrahimic traditions, where God made us and none of us are to presume to be as powerful. Animals and objects are treated as mere things. Look at hardliners destroying art that has human form. The general story being God made us and we are inferior and must not resort to offending him with crude reproductions, lest he smite us for thinking we can do better.
- pbhjpbhj 8y ago
  >"and must not resort to offending him with crude reproductions" // It's not about reproductions (which are clearly impossible), but about images and sycophantic replacements. The imagery thing leads to a specific materialism; the replacement leads to us designing a god to reflect and applaud our ethical failings. Like turning to porn and eschewing one's duty to one's wife; or choosing an inanimate character as one's wife and imbuing her with a fetish for your own failings "I love your flab, the way you stink of stale beer and sweat really turns me on". FWIW in Abramic tradition animals are creatures made by God that humans are entrusted to care for, and yes use as food; custodians of creation. Your presentation looks like an inference of the created order based on looking at people's actions. Like watching traffic to find what the traffic laws are; that's a flawed methodology.

pitaj 8y ago

I'm trying to find statistics in the article but I'm having trouble. Does the article give any evidence that Westerners actually do fear robots more than the Japanese do?

nubbins 8y ago
No, and I’m pretty sure the article fails to make its point. Even if westerners did fear robots more this is the kind of vague “because its their culture” argument you are taught not to make in Anthro 101. There are almost always more proximate causes for what we label “culture”.

Florin_Andrei 8y ago

Is there any consciousness in that thing? Are the lights on in there? If yes, then the robot should be treated according to how conscious it is. If no, it's a toaster, throw it on the garbage heap when not needed anymore. "How much consciousness is in there" is the right question to ask in many situations involving difficult decisions, such as robot rights, animal rights, abortion, capital punishment, etc. Unfortunately, it is also one of the most difficult questions you could possibly ask.

wnsire 8y ago

This article was absolutely awful to read. The reason "Westerners" fear Robots and Japanese do not is definitely cultural , but not in the same way. Mostly for "Westerner" , it's related to the fear of losing their Job. Per say , just look at Autonomous Car. Truck driver is of the most occupied job in the US and potentially it's one of the most replaceable by using AI and Robotics. That's just the tip of the iceberg , what about McDonalds ? Domino's ? Both with their thousands of cashier , delivery guys and cooks ? That's what people fear , not this gimmick of "Terminator" based on some BS "Christian" culture. On top of that , when you know the American culture is almost entirely based on "Fast Money" for venture capitals it raise some concerns about the security and the effectiveness of those robots. Especially seeing how much accidents have happened with "Semi Autonomous" cars or the horrible accident that killed a pedestrian at full speed by Uber[0]. Most importantly , Japan is a declining country from a demographic perspective. Robots are needed for them to survive and stay productive and occupy jobs that very little people would accept to do these days in their culture. This demographic decline is not happening in "Western Civilization" due to important amount of immigration. Either of "Talents" ( Engineers , Doctors...) or Students , who later stay in the country and eventually create a family there. Ultimately having for effect to maintain the demography of "Western Civilization", Japan claimed many times to be hostile to this form of growth , therefore the need for robot and the mindset of not being "scared" by robots as they are key for both their economy and their culture . Ultimately making those robots a sign a of "hope" and not a "threat". [0]https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2018/05/29/why-ubers-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2018/05/29/...

rm_-rf_slash 8y ago

This article is a little too high minded and academic to take seriously. Non-tech people don’t usually think about robotic rights or AI slavery unless they’ve been watching a dystopian Sci-fi film recently. Here’s my two American cents: In the United States, if you’re poor, society says it’s your fault and you’re on your own. If you can’t get a leg up on the economic ladder because the burger-flipping jobs were replaced by robots, you’d have every right to fear them. I can’t speak for Japan but it is my understanding that society is more group-oriented there, and social spending and government priorities appear to reflect that. So even if a robot takes your job, you may have a better chance at making a decent living some other way than you might in the West.

darpa_escapee 8y ago
> robotic rights or AI slavery These are popsci topics, they're touched upon all of the time in fiction and I'd hardly say they're too academic of topics to approach in such an article.
pbhjpbhj 8y ago
>"If you can’t get a leg up on the economic ladder because the burger-flipping jobs were replaced by robots, you’d have every right to fear them." // Fear? Hate them, for sure; decry them, but fear? Doesn't make sense to me -- perhaps I'm wired differently to the majority, but it looks like something other than fear.

aylmao 8y ago

Focusing primarily on Japan vs the US, I'd argue there's two other factors that might be as big: economics and individualism. - Japan process of modernization much more recently and revolved more around technology companies. In the US, it happened earlier, and around other industries: it could be the case the admiration for technology has died out more. Also, Japan is an island, so self-sustainability is difficult-- robots not only help but will probably become necessary as the population ages. In the US, robots are associated with job loss. - Individualism and the concept of free will has a higher priority in the US. Americans are obsessed with choice and it permeates thought: from fast-food restaurants with with "make your own" takes, to the autonomy states have, to the whole of the "American Dream". "Free will" is so revered that the idea of an entity without it is probably more foreign.

majormajor 8y ago
> Japan process of modernization much more recently and revolved more around technology companies. In the US, it happened earlier, and around other industries: it could be the case the admiration for technology has died out more. I'd argue there's a subtler reading here. What makes a "technology company" changes over time. Railroad companies were very much technology companies. Consider https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Machine_in_the_Garden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Machine_in_the_Garden : "The title of the book refers to a trope in American literature representing the interruption of pastoral scenery by technology due to the industrialization of America during the 19th and 20th century." We don't consider railroads to be tech anymore, but they absolutely were at the time. Later on, cable companies were technology companies. Hugely innovative and disruptive to the existing TV market, yet forty years later they're already has-been dinosaurs. So I would definitely agree with the idea that the US has seen this cycle a few times, and has done the enchanted->cynical cycle a few times.
- jpindar 8y ago
  It makes me sad that "technology" went from rockets and robots and lasers... to web pages.
malloryerik 8y ago

neuralRiot 8y ago

Probably the reasons are not that deep. In the "western" (USA?) the aspiration for any manufacturer is to secure a defense contract so any "robot" is seen as a potential weapon, that is more evident from the cold war onwards. Now we're seeing that it was not far from truth, any new technology is aimed to surveillance and security.

throaway030818 8y ago

>Followers of Shinto, unlike Judeo-Christian monotheists and the Greeks before them, do not believe that humans are particularly “special.” Instead, there are spirits in everything, [...] "Empedocles [says that the soul] is composed of all the elements and that each of them actually is a soul [...]" (Aristotle, De Anima, 404b11) "All things are full of gods." (Thales. From Aristotle, De Anima, 411a) "Now consider all the stars and the moon and the years and the months and all the seasons: what can we do except repeat the same story? A soul or souls...have been shown to be the cause of all these phenomena, and whether it is by their living presence in matter...or by some other means, we shall insist that these souls are gods. Can anybody admit all this and still put up with people who deny that 'everything is full of gods'?" (Plato, Laws, 899b) "Animals and plants come into being in earth and in liquid because there is water in earth, and pneuma in water, and in all pneuma is vital heat, so that in a sense all things are full of soul [...]" (Aristotle, Generation of Animals, 762a18-20)

ethbro 8y ago
How many Greek deities were non-anthropomorphic?
- YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago
  That doesn't make any difference. The article claims that animistic beliefs are absent from Greek thought. The OP quotes four examples that very clearly say they are instead embraced by the most prominent Greek philosophers, like, ever. As to the belief that humans are "special" - well, you only have to look at the philosophy of the cynics, like Diogenes (the most prominent cynic of all). Or, to the legend of Hades and how the dead are shades without personality or memory- including the most important personnages like heroes and kings (in the Odyssey, Ulysses indulges in a bit of necromancy and calls forth Achiles' shade, by offering it blood from a sacrifice. The poet explains that the blood reminds the dead of who they were in the land of the living. When the rite is over, they go back to being person-less shades). Hardly a "humans are special" kind of vibe, there. In Greek mythology, Gods are special. Humans, not so much. Unless they're heroes, which means, invariably, humans descended from the gods.

decacorn 8y ago

Uh well, as a Westerner I'm not afraid of robots because of awesome Japanese anime like EVANGELION, patlabor, gundam, macross, voltron, eureka, list goes on and on.

internet_user 8y ago

I am an American, and I do not fear my Roomba.

dchess 8y ago
I don't. Who knows what that little maniac is up to? I mean, why is he mapping my house? My dog knows what's up. He is not a fan of Roomba.
gerdesj 8y ago
I'm a Brit. I grew up watching Doctor Who (Tom Baker and on). It never occurred to me as a child that Daleks can't climb stairs. Besides the Cybermen have legs and are pretty unpleasant as well. One evening, you'll leave your Roomba happily running around in the living room, downstairs, and wake up to it bumping into a leg on your bed ... upstairs. I'll fear your Roomba for you: I've seen what happened to Skaros.

brownbat 8y ago

> While Japan had what could be called slavery, it was never at an industrial scale. The "but it wasn't industrial” is a vague and arbitrary line. Yes, the Western slave trade was massively horrific and incomparable. But in context the sentence is suggesting the Japanese don't have a deep understanding of being oppressors or oppressed, which doesn't withstand a glance at history. The burakumin, minority groups like the Ainu, Korean relations under Hideyoshi where they collected Korean ears and noses, or in WWII with the system of comfort women... Japan wasn't somehow immune to the forces that lead to oppression between groups. More broadly the whole article seems premised on the fact that there's some prominent Western sci fi Frankenstein stories, like Terminator, and some notable anime about cyborgs. But Japan has Frankenstein stories too. Some of the most famous sci fi out of Japan is about how science and technology is dehumanizing. And Western sci fi is obsessed with Frankenstein stories, at least partly as an accident of literary history, because Frankenstein itself just grabbed hold of the popular imagination in an era where Gothic horror was popular and scientific ideas were gaining traction. Asimov has a few rants against Frankenstein stories, and most of the original I Robot stories are an attempt at an antidote. Worth actually reading if you want something different. He had to work really hard to make something different, suggesting the reason so many authors keep repeating the same stories about evil robots might be more just because they are lazy rather than tapping into something profound.

repsilat 8y ago
> Frankenstein stories Funnily enough, this idea -- the meme of "Frankenstein" being about the perils of science or technology -- is totally at odds with the book itself. Popular culture has obviously not had much contact with the original text. In the book, Frankenstein's monster was the good guy -- he was clever, sensitive and persecuted for his humanity. The lesson of the book was about the judgemental inhumanity of society, not the danger of progress. It warns against the fear of the unknown -- the opposite of the popular understanding. It's nothing at all like Terminator.
- majos 8y ago
  The real-world popular mistaken impression of Frankenstein's monster ("an abomination!") is the same as the in-novel popular mistaken impression of Frankenstein's monster. This is a neat trick.

jpatokal 8y ago

"We Japanese" -- that's the key phrase that indicates this is the latest in a long line of Nihonjinron (Japanese people theories), about how 110m people all share an ineffable characteristic that makes them oh so very different from the rest of the world. I really didn't expect this from Joi Ito though... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihonjinron https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihonjinron

gerdesj 8y ago
... and not a particularly good one either: Followers of Shinto, unlike Judeo-Christian monotheists and the Greeks before them That's a funny way to divide up the world into us and them. It looks more like us == Japan and them == US. The writer seems to miss out the Roman influence that might traditionally be shoehorned into the "western" God Squad history. Not to mention a dalliance with dollops of assorted "pagan" traditions and mythology. To be fair, I consider this sort of thing as a form of national pride which should be respected when listened to but needs careful consideration. Bear in mind I come from the country that can play "Land of Hope and Glory" or "Jerusalem" without flinching.
- empath75 8y ago
  Not to mention the Greek influence on Buddhism and vice versa. They were entirely isolated from each other.
GuiA 8y ago
Fantastic comment. The feedback loop between some Japanese people arguing that Japanese culture is unique in some fundamental and unique way amongst all other human culture, and non Japanese people lapping it up, is a little insane.
- luckydata 8y ago
  yes, however... have you seen Japan? It's not that hard to believe there's some insane cultural trait that's fundamental to Japan since their society is so inscrutable and profoundly weird. p.s.: I used to work for a Japanese company, I have first hand experience :)

PhasmaFelis 8y ago

Some of the earliest homegrown Japanese sci-fi prominently featured heroic, humanlike robots. I wonder to what extent that was a symptom of existing attitudes vs. a cause of later ones.

krapp 8y ago
> I wonder to what extent that was a symptom of existing attitudes vs. a cause of later ones. Very likely, given that Astro Boy started soon after the end of World War 2. I can imagine that themes of using technology for good rather than harm were appealing to a country that had just seen what harm technology could do first hand.

nice_byte 8y ago

I feel the need to say that (spoiler warning) everyone who watched Neon Genesis Evangelion knows that Evas are, in fact, not robots.

binarynate 8y ago

tl;dr: https://youtu.be/ZdDHi5SSIlM?t=17s https://youtu.be/ZdDHi5SSIlM?t=17s

ggregoire 8y ago

Japanese would be scared too if they watched what Boston Dynamics is working on.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

mindslight 8y ago

There is a lot of wisdom in this article, but its paradigm has an overt blind spot regarding "robots" [0] that are able to completely dominate humans and even society. I'm not worried that an "enslaved" AI underclass is going to rebel and "overthrow me" [1]. I'm immediately concerned about this AI "underclass" controlling me at the behest of other humans. In the long term I am worried about Homo Sapiens being obsoleted by another organism, because I am a Homo Sapien. Kindness is a charity afforded to the dominant life form, one which I recommend everybody partake in whenever they can (why I started off saying there's a lot of wisdom in the article). But kindness does not extrapolate to capitulation where my very existence is threatened. From a Western-individualist viewpoint, I'd counter that Japan is more accepting of AI as it fits right in with a top-down structured society and a shared cultural trust that the people (/systems) "above oneself" are purposeful and not malevolent [2]. [0] Even talking in terms of "robots" is misleading, as what we're really talking about is AI. [1] and referencing the USian Original Sin won't make me shy away and bend the knee. [2] Sorry for the laid-bare flame bait. I do not have the luxury of an editor to massage my comment to couch cultural stereotypes in the appropriate amount of beating around the bush and self-flagellation.

ddmma 8y ago

Technofobia at breakfast, your milk and cereals are processed by thousands of machines already similar to the one you hold in your hand right now

ddmma 8y ago

Technophobia at breakfast, your milk and cereals are processed by thousands of machines already similar to the one you hold in your hand right now

tylerjwilk00 8y ago

I think a big factor in the attitude differences between Western and Eastern societies comes from the chronological order of industrialization. The West were the fore runners of industrialization and seen first hand the bad (old guard job loss, environmental impact, deadly accidents). Of course the price paid by the bad paved the way for the positive (economic supremacy). The economic positive from technological progress is far more apparent from the outside (East) looking in. The (West) memory of the early years and negatives creeped into the culture. While the East mostly noticed the shiny shores of economic progress and relatively recently. None of this is to say that the East is not having their own moment of the perils technological industrialization. Perhaps the East's view of technology will become less idealised in the future.

aaron695 8y ago

This entire article is total junk, Wired has totally jumped the shark. It just makes stuff up at every turn, it doesn't understand Japanese history, Western history, current Western culture or current Japanese culture. Slavery was of course rife in Japan and did the writer skip WW2 when they learned history, you shouldn't hold a person to their countries past but if you did, Japan was horrific in devaluing human life. But more importantly the Japanese DON'T have the exposure to robots that Westerners do. Because Westerners use them much more often. Japan still uses Fax machines, it took years after the west to get ebooks. The little restaurants often wash dishes by hand a unheard of practice in the West. They use humans over traffic lights. But given the entire title is junk, I've never heard of Westerner's "fearing robots", so it's hard to see any value in the article at all.

hevi_jos 8y ago

As others have noted, the Japanese have their fair share of criminality and violence against other groups of people on more recent times than slavery in the US. About the damage to the environment, here the Japanese also have their own share. If "feeling all one with the environment" includes fishing salmon in deep waters until they had been almost extincted, or whales or dolphins' slaughter on the beach, Japanese does not look special over any other groups in the world. From my point of view, the difference in perception about robots is that they need them: they are getting old and someone or something must do the jobs. In places like India there is so much people that robots become a real threat against people's jobs. In Japan if they do not use them, they will be dissapear as a nation.

vitoc 8y ago

At first glance, I thought the title might be better with the use of "but" in place of "and", as in "Why Westerners Fear Robots but the Japanese Do Not"...

kiriakasis 8y ago

> Followers of Shinto, unlike Judeo-Christian monotheists and the Greeks before them, do not believe that humans are particularly “special.” Instead, there are spirits in everything, rather like the Force in Star Wars. Nature doesn’t belong to us, we belong to Nature, and spirits live in everything, including rocks, tools, homes, and even empty spaces. To me this looks like the most important paragraph. The west (and I believe also China, India, Russia, and arab countries) do lack a vision of different being coexisting. Eventually we (and based on some popular light novel for boys, also china) have a vision of a Natural World in balance and Humans acting (either positively or negatively) on this balance. This does not mean that we would hate robots or even aliens, just that we would (at a superficial level) need to shoehorn them into being either humans or not.

Kagerjay 8y ago

Whats interesting as well is that Japanese culture is very traditonal. The cultural mindset to not adopt technology was there in the past. One example that comes to mind is Japanese houdewives and dishwashers. The reason for this is they take great pride in their housewife role, and dishwashers take away that. This might no longer be true but according to articles Ive read it was from year 2000 to 2012 when i first heard about it. Meanwhile in America this stigma never was as prevalent as in Japan during the same timeframe

xtiansimon 8y ago

Japanese society has been described as a homogeneous society--lacking, suspicious, distrustful of difference. Whats more, there is interesting research on social psycholgy of Wheat People vs. Rice People [1]: "[Rice People] are more likely to understand themselves as interwoven with other people — as interdependent, not independent. In such social worlds, your goal is to fit in and adjust yourself to others, not to stand out." With this social distinction in mind I am of a mind to think Japanese society's fear response to robots is a dialog or binary opposition. Humans who act like robots vs robots who act like humans. Personally, I'm not fearful of robots who act human. I'm fearful of robot actors shaping human society in their image while being controled by a new class of technological oligarchs. Humans dominating humans through robot proxy. The truest statement in this Wired article occurs at the start: "The Western concept of “humanity” is limited, and I think it’s time to seriously question whether we have the right to exploit the environment, animals, tools, or robots simply because we’re human and they are not." The author _sets us up_ with this self-recflection of human hubris, and then launches into a love letter of Japanese social acceptance of a nostalgic cartoon character Astroboy. Fooey! [1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/04/opinion/why-are-some-cultures-more-individualistic-than-others.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/04/opinion/why-are-some-cult...

bachbach 8y ago

I'm not liking the off the cuff 'white man' references I keep seeing out of Silicon Valley related networks. The meaning is identical to "the Jews" in context. This forum has a serious problem. I think I'm more likely to get kicked off it for pointing out this form of bigotry than the people using it as a commonplace. My former comment which will probably also be flagged for review is pointing out that the URL references child prostitution but submission comments appear more worried with the website's GDPR implementation. So Daniel/Scott - you should be talking to Ycombinator about the failures of self regulation because neither of these situations is the kind that gets less toxic. Wisdom of crowds this isn't.

mastahsplintah 8y ago

Robots comin for you