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Apple are engaged in collecting and holding data, they hold personal files, emails, photos, calendars, location data etc. There is a financial incentive for the

Apple are engaged in collecting and holding data, they hold personal files, emails, photos, calendars, location data etc. There is a financial incentive for them to make it difficult for people to move away. Apple have also led the trend for 1000+ dollar disposable electronics, with glued and soldered components that cannot be easily repaired or upgraded.

keymone 8y ago
the ultimate way of making it difficult to move away is to make a better product. so far it looks like apple is executing that strategy quite well (judging from the stock price).
- SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
  Apple's stock price is based on its ability to make money, it has very little to do with the quality of its products.
  - scarface74 8y ago
    So exactly how do they make money? Unlike Google and Facebook thier business model is very simple, they make stuff people want and people give them money.
    - IMTDb 8y ago
      Google and Facebook models are pretty simple too: they make stuff people want and companies give them money to put inject their ads in the service.
      - scarface74 8y ago
        How many people know that a third party can for instance give Facebook a list of emails then FB matches that list up to thier subscribers for ads? How many people know that Google records every time you open any app on Android and logs the activity? I found out when I logged into my dad’s account. How many people knew that third parties can get information about you if your friends sign up to something?
        chosenbreed 8y ago
        Okay...in this particular instance you can find and you can opt out of certain things but not a lot though. Something that rarely gets mentioned in the discourse is that Facebook is offering a product to 1billion+ people for free. At somepoint you have to think that there is a cost someone where. Very few people work for free...I fail to see how they don't realise that companies produces products at a cost and they must make the money somehow. In the case of Facebook it is from data. As an aside I wonder if people knew what goes on restaurant kitchens, processed supermarket foods, they'd still buy it. My guess is yes...:-)
        scarface74 8y ago
        Yes. Everyone knows that Facebook makes money from advertising. I’m sure most people know that they make money by targeting advertising based on your expressed interest and the profile you create. But how many people know that FB follows you around the web?
    - jrockway 8y ago
      Not really. They do make stuff that people buy, but often they take out loans to buy those things ("free with 2 year contract") which changes the economics a bit. They sit in the middle of every transaction on those devices you bought, telling you which applications you can and cannot use. They sit in the middle of any content you purchase; instead of your New York Times subscription supporting journalism, 30% of that goes to Apple instead for the privilege of owning "your" device. They intercept your text messages to provide iMessage. Who knows what happens to things I've stored on iCloud after I delete them. I don't have a problem with any of this stuff, but Apple is hardly a just a scaled up lemonade stand. They are just Google and Facebook but better at brand image.
      - scarface74 8y ago
        They sit in the middle of any content you purchase; instead of your New York Times subscription supporting journalism, 30% of that goes to Apple instead for the privilege of owning "your" device. They intercept your text messages to provide iMessage. Who knows what happens to things I've stored on iCloud after I delete them. The content producers have choices. - they can force you to pay for content outside of the App Store (Spotify, Amazon) - they can allow you to pay for content either in the App Store at a higher price or outside of the App Store at s lower price (CBS All Access) - they can allow you to buy content in or out of the App Store for the same price (Udemy, Hulu, Netflix). As far as “intercepting your text messages”, they are end to end encrypted where neither Apple nor your carriers can see the messages. Unlike Google’s latest text messaging app. But as a user, I know my transaction cost - the price I pay to Apple. With Google and Facebook, the price is tracking, embedded ads, crapware (in the case of Android phones), etc.
      - ryanmonroe 8y ago
        The App Store makes up about 5% of Apple's total revenue. The vast majority of their revenue comes from selling products to consumers. Their business model is not comparable to Google's, because Google gets most of its revenue from advertising.
  - keymone 8y ago
    i don't even...
tonyedgecombe 8y ago
There are plenty of people fixing Apple hardware and it's worth doing because the residual value is so high.
- willtim 8y ago
  I can replace the keyboard in my Thinkpad myself. Who apart from Apple can replace the (flawed) keyboard in new the MacBook Pro?
  - tonyedgecombe 8y ago
    That may make it inconvenient for you but it isn't necessarily an environmental problem. Most people don't take their hardware apart, they take it back to the store.
    - willtim 8y ago
      It becomes an environmental problem when Apple stop offering to fix it, or make the cost of repair uneconomical. I can still buy a replacement keyboard for a 20 year old Thinkpad for ten dollars and pay someone to install it. Granted, there are some aspects of Apple hardware that can still be repaired/replaced by third-parties, but their trend is away from this.
      - tonyedgecombe 8y ago
        I have a fifteen year old iMac on my desk right now.
        willtim 8y ago
        That's great! But it's unlikely that today's MacBook Pro will last anywhere near 15 years.
        lev99 8y ago
        That's apple's and oranges. Laptops move a lot, which opens them up to damage. I fully suspect an iMac to last 15 years.
scarface74 8y ago
Personal files - install iCloud Drive on your computer and copy the files. You don't even have to do that. You can log on to iCloud.com and download your files. Emails, Calendars - they use standard protocols. You can use any email client to get the data off Photos - you just plug your phone into your computer and copy the files. Disposable electronics - seeing that Apple is releasing iOS 12 for the iPhone 5s released in 2012, how do you figure? How many Android phones from 2015 let alone 2012 are still getting updates? Sure the phone is easy to repair - I just take it to the Apple Store.
- willtim 8y ago
  Have you actually tried using an alternative email client with iCloud mail? You might get lucky, but for sure it is only tested with Apple Mail as a client. They might claim standard protocol adherence, but are they actually testing for it? Likewise, your assessment of how easy it is to get ones photos exported with metadata intact is not true in practice. Android phones are indeed as bad or worse than Apple with regard to lifespan, but this was a trend that Apple started. A Nokia 3310 purchased in 2000 would still work fine today. Apple would even like to see something as simple and universal as a headphone jack disappear in order to regularly sell new headphones (!)
  - scarface74 8y ago
    How hard is it to plug a phone up to your computer and drag files from it? A Nokia 3310 would be a 2G GSM phone. Both GSM carriers in the US have turned off 2G support. If you wanted, there is nothing stopping you from using an iPhone 3G released in 2008. In fact, I have a first gen iPad. You can still download older versions of Netflix, Hulu, Spotify etc and they still work. Seeing that you can still buy standard Bluetooth headphones from anywhere and an adapter comes in the box. There is nothing stopping you from using third party headphones.
    - willtim 8y ago
      > How hard is it to plug a phone up to your computer and drag files from it? The internal filesystem layout used by photos is not intended to be manually browsed, it is non-trivial and undocumented. I might be able to recover the original jpg files, but any metadata such as organisation structure, tags, albums is locked up in proprietary closed formats. They offer an export function which gets you the jpgs, but not much else. > there is nothing stopping you from using an iPhone 3G released in 2008 Security for one. Apple and Google have both built an extremely complex phone OS that needs constant patching to even remain "reasonably secure". > you can still buy standard Bluetooth headphones My concern is longevity, simplicity and sound quality. I would not want to use bluetooth.

keymone 8y ago

the ultimate way of making it difficult to move away is to make a better product. so far it looks like apple is executing that strategy quite well (judging from the stock price).

SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
Apple's stock price is based on its ability to make money, it has very little to do with the quality of its products.
- scarface74 8y ago
  So exactly how do they make money? Unlike Google and Facebook thier business model is very simple, they make stuff people want and people give them money.
  - IMTDb 8y ago
    Google and Facebook models are pretty simple too: they make stuff people want and companies give them money to put inject their ads in the service.
    - scarface74 8y ago
      How many people know that a third party can for instance give Facebook a list of emails then FB matches that list up to thier subscribers for ads? How many people know that Google records every time you open any app on Android and logs the activity? I found out when I logged into my dad’s account. How many people knew that third parties can get information about you if your friends sign up to something?
      - chosenbreed 8y ago
        Okay...in this particular instance you can find and you can opt out of certain things but not a lot though. Something that rarely gets mentioned in the discourse is that Facebook is offering a product to 1billion+ people for free. At somepoint you have to think that there is a cost someone where. Very few people work for free...I fail to see how they don't realise that companies produces products at a cost and they must make the money somehow. In the case of Facebook it is from data. As an aside I wonder if people knew what goes on restaurant kitchens, processed supermarket foods, they'd still buy it. My guess is yes...:-)
        scarface74 8y ago
        Yes. Everyone knows that Facebook makes money from advertising. I’m sure most people know that they make money by targeting advertising based on your expressed interest and the profile you create. But how many people know that FB follows you around the web?
  - jrockway 8y ago
    Not really. They do make stuff that people buy, but often they take out loans to buy those things ("free with 2 year contract") which changes the economics a bit. They sit in the middle of every transaction on those devices you bought, telling you which applications you can and cannot use. They sit in the middle of any content you purchase; instead of your New York Times subscription supporting journalism, 30% of that goes to Apple instead for the privilege of owning "your" device. They intercept your text messages to provide iMessage. Who knows what happens to things I've stored on iCloud after I delete them. I don't have a problem with any of this stuff, but Apple is hardly a just a scaled up lemonade stand. They are just Google and Facebook but better at brand image.
    - scarface74 8y ago
      They sit in the middle of any content you purchase; instead of your New York Times subscription supporting journalism, 30% of that goes to Apple instead for the privilege of owning "your" device. They intercept your text messages to provide iMessage. Who knows what happens to things I've stored on iCloud after I delete them. The content producers have choices. - they can force you to pay for content outside of the App Store (Spotify, Amazon) - they can allow you to pay for content either in the App Store at a higher price or outside of the App Store at s lower price (CBS All Access) - they can allow you to buy content in or out of the App Store for the same price (Udemy, Hulu, Netflix). As far as “intercepting your text messages”, they are end to end encrypted where neither Apple nor your carriers can see the messages. Unlike Google’s latest text messaging app. But as a user, I know my transaction cost - the price I pay to Apple. With Google and Facebook, the price is tracking, embedded ads, crapware (in the case of Android phones), etc.
    - ryanmonroe 8y ago
      The App Store makes up about 5% of Apple's total revenue. The vast majority of their revenue comes from selling products to consumers. Their business model is not comparable to Google's, because Google gets most of its revenue from advertising.
- keymone 8y ago
  i don't even...

tonyedgecombe 8y ago

There are plenty of people fixing Apple hardware and it's worth doing because the residual value is so high.

willtim 8y ago
I can replace the keyboard in my Thinkpad myself. Who apart from Apple can replace the (flawed) keyboard in new the MacBook Pro?
- tonyedgecombe 8y ago
  That may make it inconvenient for you but it isn't necessarily an environmental problem. Most people don't take their hardware apart, they take it back to the store.
  - willtim 8y ago
    It becomes an environmental problem when Apple stop offering to fix it, or make the cost of repair uneconomical. I can still buy a replacement keyboard for a 20 year old Thinkpad for ten dollars and pay someone to install it. Granted, there are some aspects of Apple hardware that can still be repaired/replaced by third-parties, but their trend is away from this.
    - tonyedgecombe 8y ago
      I have a fifteen year old iMac on my desk right now.
      - willtim 8y ago
        That's great! But it's unlikely that today's MacBook Pro will last anywhere near 15 years.
        lev99 8y ago
        That's apple's and oranges. Laptops move a lot, which opens them up to damage. I fully suspect an iMac to last 15 years.

scarface74 8y ago

Personal files - install iCloud Drive on your computer and copy the files. You don't even have to do that. You can log on to iCloud.com and download your files. Emails, Calendars - they use standard protocols. You can use any email client to get the data off Photos - you just plug your phone into your computer and copy the files. Disposable electronics - seeing that Apple is releasing iOS 12 for the iPhone 5s released in 2012, how do you figure? How many Android phones from 2015 let alone 2012 are still getting updates? Sure the phone is easy to repair - I just take it to the Apple Store.

willtim 8y ago
Have you actually tried using an alternative email client with iCloud mail? You might get lucky, but for sure it is only tested with Apple Mail as a client. They might claim standard protocol adherence, but are they actually testing for it? Likewise, your assessment of how easy it is to get ones photos exported with metadata intact is not true in practice. Android phones are indeed as bad or worse than Apple with regard to lifespan, but this was a trend that Apple started. A Nokia 3310 purchased in 2000 would still work fine today. Apple would even like to see something as simple and universal as a headphone jack disappear in order to regularly sell new headphones (!)
- scarface74 8y ago
  How hard is it to plug a phone up to your computer and drag files from it? A Nokia 3310 would be a 2G GSM phone. Both GSM carriers in the US have turned off 2G support. If you wanted, there is nothing stopping you from using an iPhone 3G released in 2008. In fact, I have a first gen iPad. You can still download older versions of Netflix, Hulu, Spotify etc and they still work. Seeing that you can still buy standard Bluetooth headphones from anywhere and an adapter comes in the box. There is nothing stopping you from using third party headphones.
  - willtim 8y ago
    > How hard is it to plug a phone up to your computer and drag files from it? The internal filesystem layout used by photos is not intended to be manually browsed, it is non-trivial and undocumented. I might be able to recover the original jpg files, but any metadata such as organisation structure, tags, albums is locked up in proprietary closed formats. They offer an export function which gets you the jpgs, but not much else. > there is nothing stopping you from using an iPhone 3G released in 2008 Security for one. Apple and Google have both built an extremely complex phone OS that needs constant patching to even remain "reasonably secure". > you can still buy standard Bluetooth headphones My concern is longevity, simplicity and sound quality. I would not want to use bluetooth.