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Apple still control its eco-system very tightly. Let's not forget that they also made questionable decisions with the Apple store. They were also had one scand

by maeln 8y ago

Apple still control its eco-system very tightly. Let's not forget that they also made questionable decisions with the Apple store. They were also had one scandal about location tracking and sharing if I remember correctly (which may have prompted their strong stand on customer privacy nowadays). EDIT: Yes, in 2011: https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/28/technology/28apple.html https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/28/technology/28apple.html

ckastner 8y ago
Sure, Apple isn't spotless. But their main business model, as far as I can tell, is making money by selling premium hardware. Facebook et al. make money by collecting and selling other people's data.
- pluma 8y ago
  Facebook et al. make money by harvesting your data and using it so other people can try to sell you stuff. Apple makes money by holding your data hostage to convince you to buy expensive hardware. That said, Apple's business model doesn't require them to violate your privacy -- to derive value, they only need to hold the data you give them, not really do anything with it. Facebook's and Google's business model is only possible with a complete disregard for your privacy rights.
  - AmericanChopper 8y ago
    What data of mine is Apple holding hostage? As far as I can remember, I’ve only ever brought Apple hardware because I like it so much.
    - cmsj 8y ago
      You could maybe make an argument that something like iMessage is a platform lock-in.
      - AmericanChopper 8y ago
        That seems like a pretty weak example. I use about half a dozen instant messaging apps (iMessage probably the least), and I believe that’s pretty common.
    - mamon 8y ago
      I recently tried to copy a bunch of photo albums FROM iPhone TO PC. Apple makes that difficult, because iTunes only supports synching data in the opposite direction. Also, it would happily offer to delete your photos from phone and replacing it with folder content from PC. Now imagine that you spill coffee on your laptop and the only copy of your data is on iPhone - Apple makes it difficult for you to access your own data.
      - AmericanChopper 8y ago
        This simply isn’t true, you can use iCloud, the windows photos app, or even just windows explorer to move photos from your iPhone to your PC.
      - scarface74 8y ago
        You plug in your phone to your PC and it shows up as a drive and you copy the photos. You don't need iTunes at all.
        mamon 8y ago
        Oh, I tried that, but you know what? Out of almost a 1000 photos I have on my iPhone only 97 showed up, ready to be copied - the ones that I took with the iPhone camera. Those uploaded with iTunes were inaccessible. That’s when I decided to never buy an iDevice again.
        gbear605 8y ago
        That's (probably) because you had your phone set to optimize storage and store them on the cloud. You can fix this by going to the Settings app, going to Photos, and selecting "Download and Keep Originals" instead of "Optimize iPhone Storage." This isn't lock-in, this is helping you by allowing you to take more photos.
    - onceKnowable 8y ago
      There’s no need to be defensive or naive about Apple’s data gathering. It’s clearly stated in all of their terms that they gather usage data. Personally, I’d trust them more than Facebook, Google and most other companies. But to assume they’re gathering and storing no data is mistaken. It’s not your fault either, there’s a population-wide innocence about what data companies gather on us that will eventually be overcome as more people get exposed to the negative repercussions of what happens when data like that gets breached, hopefully leading to future laws clamping down on data usage and retention timeframes. Data that Apple have on you includes but is not limited to: - what time, location and what internet connection you use to do any of the following on an apple device: — open an app, and what app you opened — take a photo — look at your photo gallery — watch a video — basically do almost anything - also your iCloud files are all viewable by their engineers Most of their staff only have access to anonymized versions of all of that data that engineers in particular use to find bugs and optimize UI’s, but thousands of their staff can view your raw data. That’s not to say you should be worried. But you should be aware.
      - chrisdhoover 8y ago
        Engineers having access to raw data may be true but it goes against their stated privacy rules
  - ckastner 8y ago
    > That said, Apple's business model doesn't require them to violate your privacy -- to derive value, they only need to hold the data you give them, not really do anything with it. Facebook's and Google's business model is only possible with a complete disregard for your privacy rights. That's a good point! Although Google is commendably venturing out into all kinds of other areas. Facebook, however, doesn't seem to be doing much other than just hawking data.
- tonyedgecombe 8y ago
  Facebook can't even fix it because it's inherent in their business model.
- Razengan 8y ago
  To put it another, simpler, way: Apple can’t influence any country’s elections. Facebook can, and has. Even the most “powerful” country’s.
thecleaner 8y ago
Yes, apple has made some questionable decisions. But Facebook has made downright unethical decisions. I am not trying to "what-about-it" their mistakes, however for the amount of effort they put in to ensure user privacy and security and also for the sheer delight of using their products, I am glad they are a 1T company and I hope they continue to be so. Imagine FB controlling the smartphone, how much privacy would someone have then ?
- syshum 8y ago
  See I believe Apple makes down right unethical decisions as well, like when they sue refreshers and repair shops... When they threaten to sue Youtubers who are educating people on how to repair their devices When they lobby aka payoff governments to prevent right to repair laws When they refuse to release tools and information that allow owners access to their hardware When they refuse to acknowledge hardware design flaws or stand behind their products... I could go on but the point is the idea that Facebook makes unethical decisions but Apple does not depends on what one considered ethical. Walled gardens to me are unethical so i do not buy products in walled gardens. Like wise I do not accept having my data sold as a commodity so I never joined facebook. They likely have a shadow profile on me, which I do find unethical, but most people are complaining about them selling data they themselves gave to facebook in exchange for a free service, I do not find that to be unethical. People that created an account with Facebook, for free, should have suspected this.
  - another-one-off 8y ago
    In semi-rare cases, majorities organise against minorities. If that happens and the majority gets access to the data stored in something like Facebook's databases, it will be catastrophic. We can't say what minority it will be either. Rich people? Gypsies? Foreigners? Farmers? Poor people? They've all been persecuted groups at some point or another in some country. This isn't comparable to something like not being able to repair my phone, requiring me to buy a new phone.
    - syshum 8y ago
anovikov 8y ago
Difference is that with Google and Facebook, these 'questionable decisions' are the core and essence of their business. With Apple, it is at worst someone's attempt to cut a few corners, and at best, just someone's negligence.

by maeln 8y ago

ckastner 8y ago

Sure, Apple isn't spotless. But their main business model, as far as I can tell, is making money by selling premium hardware. Facebook et al. make money by collecting and selling other people's data.

pluma 8y ago
Facebook et al. make money by harvesting your data and using it so other people can try to sell you stuff. Apple makes money by holding your data hostage to convince you to buy expensive hardware. That said, Apple's business model doesn't require them to violate your privacy -- to derive value, they only need to hold the data you give them, not really do anything with it. Facebook's and Google's business model is only possible with a complete disregard for your privacy rights.
- AmericanChopper 8y ago
  What data of mine is Apple holding hostage? As far as I can remember, I’ve only ever brought Apple hardware because I like it so much.
  - cmsj 8y ago
    You could maybe make an argument that something like iMessage is a platform lock-in.
    - AmericanChopper 8y ago
      That seems like a pretty weak example. I use about half a dozen instant messaging apps (iMessage probably the least), and I believe that’s pretty common.
  - mamon 8y ago
    I recently tried to copy a bunch of photo albums FROM iPhone TO PC. Apple makes that difficult, because iTunes only supports synching data in the opposite direction. Also, it would happily offer to delete your photos from phone and replacing it with folder content from PC. Now imagine that you spill coffee on your laptop and the only copy of your data is on iPhone - Apple makes it difficult for you to access your own data.
    - AmericanChopper 8y ago
      This simply isn’t true, you can use iCloud, the windows photos app, or even just windows explorer to move photos from your iPhone to your PC.
    - scarface74 8y ago
      You plug in your phone to your PC and it shows up as a drive and you copy the photos. You don't need iTunes at all.
      - mamon 8y ago
        Oh, I tried that, but you know what? Out of almost a 1000 photos I have on my iPhone only 97 showed up, ready to be copied - the ones that I took with the iPhone camera. Those uploaded with iTunes were inaccessible. That’s when I decided to never buy an iDevice again.
        gbear605 8y ago
        That's (probably) because you had your phone set to optimize storage and store them on the cloud. You can fix this by going to the Settings app, going to Photos, and selecting "Download and Keep Originals" instead of "Optimize iPhone Storage." This isn't lock-in, this is helping you by allowing you to take more photos.
  - onceKnowable 8y ago
    There’s no need to be defensive or naive about Apple’s data gathering. It’s clearly stated in all of their terms that they gather usage data. Personally, I’d trust them more than Facebook, Google and most other companies. But to assume they’re gathering and storing no data is mistaken. It’s not your fault either, there’s a population-wide innocence about what data companies gather on us that will eventually be overcome as more people get exposed to the negative repercussions of what happens when data like that gets breached, hopefully leading to future laws clamping down on data usage and retention timeframes. Data that Apple have on you includes but is not limited to: - what time, location and what internet connection you use to do any of the following on an apple device: — open an app, and what app you opened — take a photo — look at your photo gallery — watch a video — basically do almost anything - also your iCloud files are all viewable by their engineers Most of their staff only have access to anonymized versions of all of that data that engineers in particular use to find bugs and optimize UI’s, but thousands of their staff can view your raw data. That’s not to say you should be worried. But you should be aware.
    - chrisdhoover 8y ago
      Engineers having access to raw data may be true but it goes against their stated privacy rules
- ckastner 8y ago
  > That said, Apple's business model doesn't require them to violate your privacy -- to derive value, they only need to hold the data you give them, not really do anything with it. Facebook's and Google's business model is only possible with a complete disregard for your privacy rights. That's a good point! Although Google is commendably venturing out into all kinds of other areas. Facebook, however, doesn't seem to be doing much other than just hawking data.
tonyedgecombe 8y ago
Facebook can't even fix it because it's inherent in their business model.
Razengan 8y ago
To put it another, simpler, way: Apple can’t influence any country’s elections. Facebook can, and has. Even the most “powerful” country’s.

thecleaner 8y ago

Yes, apple has made some questionable decisions. But Facebook has made downright unethical decisions. I am not trying to "what-about-it" their mistakes, however for the amount of effort they put in to ensure user privacy and security and also for the sheer delight of using their products, I am glad they are a 1T company and I hope they continue to be so. Imagine FB controlling the smartphone, how much privacy would someone have then ?

syshum 8y ago
See I believe Apple makes down right unethical decisions as well, like when they sue refreshers and repair shops... When they threaten to sue Youtubers who are educating people on how to repair their devices When they lobby aka payoff governments to prevent right to repair laws When they refuse to release tools and information that allow owners access to their hardware When they refuse to acknowledge hardware design flaws or stand behind their products... I could go on but the point is the idea that Facebook makes unethical decisions but Apple does not depends on what one considered ethical. Walled gardens to me are unethical so i do not buy products in walled gardens. Like wise I do not accept having my data sold as a commodity so I never joined facebook. They likely have a shadow profile on me, which I do find unethical, but most people are complaining about them selling data they themselves gave to facebook in exchange for a free service, I do not find that to be unethical. People that created an account with Facebook, for free, should have suspected this.
- another-one-off 8y ago
  In semi-rare cases, majorities organise against minorities. If that happens and the majority gets access to the data stored in something like Facebook's databases, it will be catastrophic. We can't say what minority it will be either. Rich people? Gypsies? Foreigners? Farmers? Poor people? They've all been persecuted groups at some point or another in some country. This isn't comparable to something like not being able to repair my phone, requiring me to buy a new phone.
  - syshum 8y ago

anovikov 8y ago

Difference is that with Google and Facebook, these 'questionable decisions' are the core and essence of their business. With Apple, it is at worst someone's attempt to cut a few corners, and at best, just someone's negligence.