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I am a Chinese and I am not comfortable with most of comments here. But I see lots of places that China companies can do much better though. I see people are gr

I am a Chinese and I am not comfortable with most of comments here. But I see lots of places that China companies can do much better though. I see people are growing awareness of IP or copyright, I hope these companies can do just better.

askaboutit 8y ago
There is a whole society ingrained in “copying”. Mainland Chinese don’t see IP theft as theft. They see it as simply “copying”. It’s ok to copy. But not to steal right? So just preach that it’s ok by changing the view. Then allow copying to happen endlessly without retribution because without it. The economy is done.
- filmor 8y ago
  Well, it is not theft. Theft means that what you are stealing is not there anymore afterwards. Like actually stealing (unique) plans. Not saying that copying is actually okay, but using more sensational terminology is not really helping. Same thing is going on with "piracy", in Germany they actually coined the term "Raubkopie" (robbed copy) which implies that a copy is taken by violent force.
  - askaboutit 8y ago
    What about theft of revenue, profits, money spent on new R&D because there is a company or government willing to copy your idea and subsidize its development heavily as to maximise their economic growth. It’s theft. Handbags to manufacturing techniques. Source code to schematics. Science to business models. It’s all meant to prop up local business. Pin duo duo just had their IPO. Now there’s so many fakes and copies that no one knows what’s real on their anymore. Didi vs Uber is a great example. Didi copied the idea, took government subsidies. But then the government stole the competition completely by shutting down Uber and forcing a merger with Didi.
    - filmor 8y ago
      You can't just redefine "theft" as "deprive of potential earnings/subsidies", watering down definitions is helping no one. I agree that the depriving is what is happening here by copying but this is what shouls be called out then, not a made-up theft.
    - TeMPOraL 8y ago
      > What about theft of revenue, profits, money spent on new R&D If you redefine it like that, then competition itself is theft. After all, if I start competing with you, I deprive you of revenue/profits by forcing you to decrease your margins...
  - eps 8y ago
    It is a theft, plain and simple. You are depriving the victim of earnings associated with the IP, market position, sales opportunites, all the while sticking them with r&d expenses, which happens even if you are making a copy for personal use.
- hevi_jos 8y ago
  If you analyze your own writing you will realize there are implicit beliefs in your thinking that are not trivial to have: -You believe ideas are properties. IP means Intellectual property. -Ideas could be stolen, like any property, that is you take ownership of something letting the original owner without the ability to use it. Europe and then US were developed copying and improving on the ideas of others. E.g Romans looked at people with mining knowledge and conquered them to acquire the knowledge(and the mines). They did the same with Greece. Toledo's steel real origin was a secret so Romans would not conquer them. Europe benefited from ideas like powder manufacturing and improved over that creating dynamite. They improved over compasses making them suitable for sea navigation. Original compasses from China were terrible. Britain copied the ideas and knowledge that lead to industrialization from the Netherlands, who had taken it from the rest of Europe, being at the end of a big river. Then the US copied from England. Native Americans were exterminated as they could not copy the new ideas fast enough in order to defend themselves.
  - CPUstring 8y ago
    Whats your point though?
natch 8y ago
Taiwan used to behave like China does now. The thing that changed in Taiwan is they started building industries where they needed to produce their own intellectual property. As that became more important, they started seeing the value of respecting IP. With software piracy, the government got so serious about it, they instituted fines for businesses set at 400x the price of any software being pirated. So a pirated copy of Windows used by a bank, say, could get very expensive very fast... perhaps still cheaper than buying Windows for every computer but presumably that purchase would be part of the corrective action mandated, with the fine being on top of that. But... Taiwan has a democratically elected government, not whatever system China has (I truly don't know, because it's so opaque... it's certainly not communist). Results may be different.
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago
  Taiwan was a dictatorship for much of the time it was economically developing, as was South Korea. We can’t really contribute their success to democracy, just perhaps their continued stability.
  - natch 8y ago
    When they got serious about IP protection (early 1990s) they were no longer a dictatorship.
    - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
      I’m not sure if that is true. Anyways, during their dictatorships they were heavily supported by the USA.
      - natch 8y ago
        Random poster on HN is not sure... what a surprise, hah! I was there working at a systems integration company that was feeling the impact of the legal changes around IP. They were huge news. At the same time the election process had just opened up because the previously iron-fisted ruling KMT party finally caved to pressure to transition things out of an era where they insisted the government had to be on a war footing, to a new era that included allowing other parties to truly run (and win!) not just in theory, but in practice. Exciting times.
shameonyou 8y ago
> But I see lots of places that China companies can do much better though. You could say this about any place, in any time in history. And anyone who can offer something more substantive either doesn't dare to speak freely if they are in China or have friends or relatives there, or weren't even born because their free-thinking grandparents were murdered, am I wrong? Seriously, you can stop right after "I am a Chinese and I am not comfortable" -- how could you possibly be. You're generations into deformation by totalitarian leaders, and that's the first thing they take. Where human lives are worth nothing, a "growing awareness of IP", which isn't even a growing respect, just an awareness, is not going to do shit in the big scheme, and doing "just better" is saying nothing other than putting a focus on not wanting to be explicit. Maybe you meant to say "much", but then bit your tongue, I don't know. But "just better", to me when I read it, has in ellipsis the question "better how?" before it. Anyway, you can't expect a country to treat citizens of other countries better than its own. I'm German and tired of ignorance and whiny kiddos playing with fire that can consume us all, kthx. Been there, done that, heard all of it, reject it completely.
userbinator 8y ago
I see people are growing awareness of IP or copyright, I hope these companies can do just better. I hope they never do, and continue to ignore the western concepts of IP or copyright. The culture is just different, and that doesn't make it any better or worse. https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=4297 https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=4297 https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=3107 https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=3107 https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=284 https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=284 Or, as someone I know said, "Chinese civilization has survived for over 3000 years."
zeist 8y ago
Be prepared for much harsher comments in the future against China. When they can't beat you they shit talk a lot
analyst74 8y ago
Many countries have gone through a period when they used unconventional means to catch up, because they had nothing to lose. If US and allies punished China with tariffs in 1970s, it would have no effect because China just came out of being embargoed and having no export to speak of. Now China is getting into the territory of having something to lose, between pressure from trade partners and internal forces, it'll eventually fall in line with other developed countries. That being said, sino-phobia in US may or may not get better, depends on how US economy is doing, and if a new arch-enemy emerges to direct public anger at.

askaboutit 8y ago

There is a whole society ingrained in “copying”. Mainland Chinese don’t see IP theft as theft. They see it as simply “copying”. It’s ok to copy. But not to steal right? So just preach that it’s ok by changing the view. Then allow copying to happen endlessly without retribution because without it. The economy is done.

filmor 8y ago
Well, it is not theft. Theft means that what you are stealing is not there anymore afterwards. Like actually stealing (unique) plans. Not saying that copying is actually okay, but using more sensational terminology is not really helping. Same thing is going on with "piracy", in Germany they actually coined the term "Raubkopie" (robbed copy) which implies that a copy is taken by violent force.
- askaboutit 8y ago
  What about theft of revenue, profits, money spent on new R&D because there is a company or government willing to copy your idea and subsidize its development heavily as to maximise their economic growth. It’s theft. Handbags to manufacturing techniques. Source code to schematics. Science to business models. It’s all meant to prop up local business. Pin duo duo just had their IPO. Now there’s so many fakes and copies that no one knows what’s real on their anymore. Didi vs Uber is a great example. Didi copied the idea, took government subsidies. But then the government stole the competition completely by shutting down Uber and forcing a merger with Didi.
  - filmor 8y ago
    You can't just redefine "theft" as "deprive of potential earnings/subsidies", watering down definitions is helping no one. I agree that the depriving is what is happening here by copying but this is what shouls be called out then, not a made-up theft.
  - TeMPOraL 8y ago
    > What about theft of revenue, profits, money spent on new R&D If you redefine it like that, then competition itself is theft. After all, if I start competing with you, I deprive you of revenue/profits by forcing you to decrease your margins...
- eps 8y ago
  It is a theft, plain and simple. You are depriving the victim of earnings associated with the IP, market position, sales opportunites, all the while sticking them with r&d expenses, which happens even if you are making a copy for personal use.
hevi_jos 8y ago
If you analyze your own writing you will realize there are implicit beliefs in your thinking that are not trivial to have: -You believe ideas are properties. IP means Intellectual property. -Ideas could be stolen, like any property, that is you take ownership of something letting the original owner without the ability to use it. Europe and then US were developed copying and improving on the ideas of others. E.g Romans looked at people with mining knowledge and conquered them to acquire the knowledge(and the mines). They did the same with Greece. Toledo's steel real origin was a secret so Romans would not conquer them. Europe benefited from ideas like powder manufacturing and improved over that creating dynamite. They improved over compasses making them suitable for sea navigation. Original compasses from China were terrible. Britain copied the ideas and knowledge that lead to industrialization from the Netherlands, who had taken it from the rest of Europe, being at the end of a big river. Then the US copied from England. Native Americans were exterminated as they could not copy the new ideas fast enough in order to defend themselves.
- CPUstring 8y ago
  Whats your point though?

natch 8y ago

Taiwan used to behave like China does now. The thing that changed in Taiwan is they started building industries where they needed to produce their own intellectual property. As that became more important, they started seeing the value of respecting IP. With software piracy, the government got so serious about it, they instituted fines for businesses set at 400x the price of any software being pirated. So a pirated copy of Windows used by a bank, say, could get very expensive very fast... perhaps still cheaper than buying Windows for every computer but presumably that purchase would be part of the corrective action mandated, with the fine being on top of that. But... Taiwan has a democratically elected government, not whatever system China has (I truly don't know, because it's so opaque... it's certainly not communist). Results may be different.

seanmcdirmid 8y ago
Taiwan was a dictatorship for much of the time it was economically developing, as was South Korea. We can’t really contribute their success to democracy, just perhaps their continued stability.
- natch 8y ago
  When they got serious about IP protection (early 1990s) they were no longer a dictatorship.
  - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
    I’m not sure if that is true. Anyways, during their dictatorships they were heavily supported by the USA.
    - natch 8y ago
      Random poster on HN is not sure... what a surprise, hah! I was there working at a systems integration company that was feeling the impact of the legal changes around IP. They were huge news. At the same time the election process had just opened up because the previously iron-fisted ruling KMT party finally caved to pressure to transition things out of an era where they insisted the government had to be on a war footing, to a new era that included allowing other parties to truly run (and win!) not just in theory, but in practice. Exciting times.

shameonyou 8y ago

> But I see lots of places that China companies can do much better though. You could say this about any place, in any time in history. And anyone who can offer something more substantive either doesn't dare to speak freely if they are in China or have friends or relatives there, or weren't even born because their free-thinking grandparents were murdered, am I wrong? Seriously, you can stop right after "I am a Chinese and I am not comfortable" -- how could you possibly be. You're generations into deformation by totalitarian leaders, and that's the first thing they take. Where human lives are worth nothing, a "growing awareness of IP", which isn't even a growing respect, just an awareness, is not going to do shit in the big scheme, and doing "just better" is saying nothing other than putting a focus on not wanting to be explicit. Maybe you meant to say "much", but then bit your tongue, I don't know. But "just better", to me when I read it, has in ellipsis the question "better how?" before it. Anyway, you can't expect a country to treat citizens of other countries better than its own. I'm German and tired of ignorance and whiny kiddos playing with fire that can consume us all, kthx. Been there, done that, heard all of it, reject it completely.

userbinator 8y ago

I see people are growing awareness of IP or copyright, I hope these companies can do just better. I hope they never do, and continue to ignore the western concepts of IP or copyright. The culture is just different, and that doesn't make it any better or worse. https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=4297 https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=4297 https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=3107 https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=3107 https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=284 https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=284 Or, as someone I know said, "Chinese civilization has survived for over 3000 years."

zeist 8y ago

Be prepared for much harsher comments in the future against China. When they can't beat you they shit talk a lot

analyst74 8y ago

Many countries have gone through a period when they used unconventional means to catch up, because they had nothing to lose. If US and allies punished China with tariffs in 1970s, it would have no effect because China just came out of being embargoed and having no export to speak of. Now China is getting into the territory of having something to lose, between pressure from trade partners and internal forces, it'll eventually fall in line with other developed countries. That being said, sino-phobia in US may or may not get better, depends on how US economy is doing, and if a new arch-enemy emerges to direct public anger at.