3 ms·

Knowing arabic, I'm not very surprised of this result. I actually don't think there is underlying pattern, most of the words are memorized and created by social

Knowing arabic, I'm not very surprised of this result. I actually don't think there is underlying pattern, most of the words are memorized and created by social conventions.

rvense 8y ago
It's been a while since I read up on this, but as I remember the (Western) description is that there are the roots and the derived forms (which are numbered one to ten/twelve), and then for each derived form there are one or more patterns corresponding to a word class. So the root d-r-s has derived verbs darasa and darrasa, and to each of those correspond, say, one or more patterns for the verbal noun. But I don't think there is exactly one pattern for verbal nouns derived from the form 2 verb (e.g. from darrasa we get tadris, as I recall, but not all verbs that go like fa33ala will necessarily have a masdar of the form taf3il, right?). You're right of course, that even though the forms have prototypical systematic semantic variation (like form 2 is usually a causative, "to teach" versus "to learn"), it's not predictable which derived forms of a given root enter into actual usage and with which exact meaning, and the patterns obviously predict a lot of words that don't actually exist, and of course Arabic speakers learn words just like speakers of any other language.
- schoen 8y ago
  > and the patterns obviously predict a lot of words that don't actually exist I think I remember that there are a handful of cases where speakers started using some of the previously unattested forms in modern times to refer to new concepts... is that right?
  - rvense 8y ago
    Well, new words have to come from somewhere... new roots can be introduced (and be made to act like Arabic ones - like how the plural of film is aflam), but the derivation patterns are also productive like in any other language. As an example, though the loan word 'computer' is apparently common, there's also the word 'hasuub' which I learned in my Modern Standard/Media Arabic course. The exact form is not listed in Wehr's 1968 dictionary, so maybe it wasn't used at that time, but it is straightforwardly derived from a root with same meaning as the English word 'to compute' and has the form fa3uul which (according to Wolfdietrich Fischer's Grammar of Classical Arabic) is an 'abstract or verbal noun', so basically a calque of the English. (What a great topic - I miss this stuff!)

Knowing arabic, I'm not very surprised of this result. I actually don't think there is underlying pattern, most of the words are memorized and created by social conventions.

rvense 8y ago

It's been a while since I read up on this, but as I remember the (Western) description is that there are the roots and the derived forms (which are numbered one to ten/twelve), and then for each derived form there are one or more patterns corresponding to a word class. So the root d-r-s has derived verbs darasa and darrasa, and to each of those correspond, say, one or more patterns for the verbal noun. But I don't think there is exactly one pattern for verbal nouns derived from the form 2 verb (e.g. from darrasa we get tadris, as I recall, but not all verbs that go like fa33ala will necessarily have a masdar of the form taf3il, right?). You're right of course, that even though the forms have prototypical systematic semantic variation (like form 2 is usually a causative, "to teach" versus "to learn"), it's not predictable which derived forms of a given root enter into actual usage and with which exact meaning, and the patterns obviously predict a lot of words that don't actually exist, and of course Arabic speakers learn words just like speakers of any other language.

schoen 8y ago
> and the patterns obviously predict a lot of words that don't actually exist I think I remember that there are a handful of cases where speakers started using some of the previously unattested forms in modern times to refer to new concepts... is that right?
- rvense 8y ago
  Well, new words have to come from somewhere... new roots can be introduced (and be made to act like Arabic ones - like how the plural of film is aflam), but the derivation patterns are also productive like in any other language. As an example, though the loan word 'computer' is apparently common, there's also the word 'hasuub' which I learned in my Modern Standard/Media Arabic course. The exact form is not listed in Wehr's 1968 dictionary, so maybe it wasn't used at that time, but it is straightforwardly derived from a root with same meaning as the English word 'to compute' and has the form fa3uul which (according to Wolfdietrich Fischer's Grammar of Classical Arabic) is an 'abstract or verbal noun', so basically a calque of the English. (What a great topic - I miss this stuff!)