24 ms·

Relation between alcohol consumption in midlife and dementia in late life

139 points by barking 8y ago

polotics 8y ago
TL;DR: Get polyphenols in your diet. Wine is an option for this but there are others.
- pluma 8y ago
  My grandfather, a wine drinker all his life, suffered severe dementia in his final years. There is no magic bullet.
  - cheeko1234 8y ago
    Anecdotal data is not evidence. My grandfather smoked 2 packs a day starting when he was 11 till he was 97 and didn't get lung cancer.
    - SubiculumCode 8y ago
      It is evidence of N=1.
- wild_preference 8y ago
  So basically vegetables, the stuff we already should be eating. Though sure is tempting to think some mysterious chemical in wine is a replacement.
- PantaloonFlames 8y ago
  Oops. I don't think the study showed that at all. You have jumped to a conclusion. Maybe it's valid, maybe not.
hprotagonist 8y ago
“moderation in all things”, as usual, seems like sage advice.
- S-E-P 8y ago
  maybe not all things... but most things :)
  - wry_discontent 8y ago
    My favorite phrasing of that is a quote that I think is from Oscar Wilde: "moderation in all things, including moderation."
    - hprotagonist 8y ago
      and it’s even got the virtue of being true.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
stakhanov 8y ago
"Abstinence from alcohol in midlife, long term abstinence, and decrease in consumption were associated with a significantly higher risk of dementia of 45%, 67%, and 50%, respectively, compared with consumption of 1-14 units/week, but only among participants who reported abstinence from wine." I don't get that sentence. Doesn't abstinence from alcohol always imply abstinence from wine? Or is it saying that drinking 1-14 units/wk only lowers your risk compared to being abstinent if some of that consumption comes in the form of wine?
- HillaryBriss 8y ago
  yeah, that confuses me too. i was also surprised by the size of the effect. being an abstainer was associated with relatively large increased risks, as you highlight. and later it says "with every 7 unit/week increase, there was a significant 17% increase in dementia risk," which is quite a lot smaller than the effect from abstinence.
- atwebb 8y ago
  The next paragraph follows up a bit, the phrasing is odd but it helps clear up that the tenuous link is wine/wine components. >The most intriguing finding from this study was the significantly increased risk of dementia among abstainers, including long term abstainers and participants who became abstainers, and that association was only present in those who abstained from wine.
  - kazinator 8y ago
    Doesn't clear up anything. A person who does not abstain from wine is not an alcohol abstainer. Among alcohol abstainers, there is no special category of those who abstain from wine; logically, they all must. A: "I don't play sports" B: "Which ones don't you play in particular?" A: "Tennis." B: "Ah too bad; the one I particularly don't play is soccer." A: "I guess we won't be enjoying our non-play of sports together then. Your avoidance of soccer requires the lack of a big field and complete absence of half a dozen other players so that a team is not accidentally formed; whereas my aversion toward tennis requires that there be no court or racquets."
pier25 8y ago
So what corresponds to one unit of alcohol? A glass of wine?
- DanBC 8y ago
  10ml of alcohol. You multiply the serving size in litres by the ABV number. 200 ml of wine at 12% = about 2.4 units. 330 ml of beer at 5% = about 1.6 units.
- stakhanov 8y ago
  It's a british thing. Drink manufacturers in the UK are obliged to declare the total amount of alcohol that's in the bottle using a "units" system, where half a litre of beer at 4% equates to roughly 2 units. So 14 units per week is a bottle of beer a day. https://www.drinkaware.co.uk/alcohol-facts/alcoholic-drinks-units/what-is-an-alcohol-unit/ https://www.drinkaware.co.uk/alcohol-facts/alcoholic-drinks-...
  - pier25 8y ago
    Thank for the link!
- jmcgough 8y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_of_alcohol https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_of_alcohol
- rleigh 8y ago
  10ml of pure ethanol.
  - jdietrich 8y ago
    Or 57% of an American standard drink. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_drink https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_drink
- analog31 8y ago
  Amusingly, and unrelated to the topic, I was visiting Scotland, and at one historical site, there was a description of the rations given to each soldier. I further learned that a Scottish pint is 1.7 liters. I could only think to myself: What a nice country!
hyperpape 8y ago
Can anyone tell if this study avoids the "sick quitter" problem? (https://www.vox.com/2018/4/24/17242720/alcohol-health-risks-facts https://www.vox.com/2018/4/24/17242720/alcohol-health-risks-...)
- throwaway183738 8y ago
  See also: “sick non-exerciser”. There’s never enough discussion of correlation vs causation in these types of studies.
  - stakhanov 8y ago
    Also makes you wonder if some of those wine/none-wine-alcohol effects are really female/male effects.
    - jdietrich 8y ago
      There are also class and ethnic biases - wine drinkers are disproportionately college-educated and caucasian.
      - stakhanov 8y ago
        ...reading the fulltext now. They were selected from among middle-aged civil servants in London in the late 80s/early 90s so the sample is way more homogeneous than the total population, certainly if the U.S. is what you're thinking of.
        safanycom 8y ago
        In London... Polluted London, Leaded car fuel London
      - DKnoll 8y ago
        Is that anecdotal or are you citing something? Boxed wine is a favourite of derelict alcoholics because it's so cheap.
newswriter99 8y ago
>Abstainers were mainly women, had lower education and physical activity, were obese, and had a higher prevalence of cardiometabolic risk factors, all associated with an increased risk of dementia,11,12 which could explain the differences; however, adjustment for confounding factors did not alter the findings. This is why interactive data visualization is so important. People need to be able to adjust the results of data to fit them, otherwise the margin of error and deviation from the "average" will be so great, findings are virtually useless to an individual.
- sdenton4 8y ago
  OTOH, the link is weird enough that my guess is that it's hiding other factors... So mapping to your own experience isn't likely to tell you much. (Unless you are a large aggregate of other people.)
- kazinator 8y ago
  > however, adjustment for confounding factors did not alter the findings. Let me guess: adjusting for confounding factors means throwing away most of the data, so that all that remains is a small group of abstainers and non-abstainers who are similar in all regards except for the abstinence. Problem is, there may be more than one way to do that, with different results; then it's possible to choose a way of reducing the data to fit the desired hypothesis. The only honest way to fix a confounding bias in the data is to re-do the study with a properly randomized sample of subjects.
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    > Let me guess: adjusting for confounding factors means throwing away most of the data The usual method is statistical adjustment for the contributions attributable to other causes, not throwing out data.
  - SubiculumCode 8y ago
    Are you seriously suggesting a study in which people are randomly assigned people to drinking conditions for decades? That is perposterous. Edit: To be clear, assignment to drinking conditions and following them over decades is unrealistic, would have problems with participant compliance, and is probably unethical.
jf- 8y ago
My first thought is a relationship with glutamate excitotoxicity. Fronto-temporal dementia is known to be related to glutamate. If that’s lumped in as part of the dementia cohort that may help explain the result.
- Herodotus38 8y ago
  Probably not a large factor because the prevalence of frontiers-temporal dementia is very small compared to vascular, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's. Anecdotally I see it in less than 1% of dementia patients. Incidence of FTD is around 2.7-4.1 per 100,000 people. Incidence for Alzheimer's is estimated to be roughly 10.5 per 1000 So although it's a good thought to have about the correlation, even if 100% of FTD cases were caused by that mechanism I don't think you'd see the difference they saw in the study. Sources: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3932112/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3932112/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3405821/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3405821/
  - jf- 8y ago
    If I remember correctly, the mechanism underlying the glutamate toxicity is mutant SOD, which is made as a response to oxidative stress. The glutamate is simply an excitory stimulus that makes free radicals which need to be mopped up by something. Could be that other proteinopathies are a similar reaction to oxidative stress, and something that promotes GABA, such as alcohol, has a beneficial effect. But of course I’m only speculating.
    - Herodotus38 8y ago
      I'm not knowledgeable enough about the biology to really add much to what you said there either, even though I deal with the end results. Systems biology is one of those areas where I think AI will make a huge difference in the future. If you are interested in some thoughts on this listen to the first hour and a half talk by Craig Mundie (you can skip first 20 minutes of intro by Collins) of this recent NIH videocast on AI in medicine: https://videocast.nih.gov/summary.asp?live=28053&bhcp=1 https://videocast.nih.gov/summary.asp?live=28053&bhcp=1
stakhanov 8y ago
One more thing that comes to mind: So they're comparing people who drink 14 units/week (one beer a day) versus people who drink more than one beer a day. Are the differences in the effects observed really dominated by the presence of people in that second group who drink a second beer and then stop their drinking for the day, or by the presence in that group of really excessive drinkers.
- Lukman 8y ago
  14 units per week is two drinks a day.
  - Lukman 8y ago
    Oh, sorry, just saw explanation below. In the US these studies equate 1 unit = 1 glass of wine or 1 beer, I could swear.
    - stakhanov 8y ago
      Haha, well in Bavaria what we think of as "a beer" is 500ml of beer at 4%, which is 20ml of pure alcohol, which is "2 units" in the UK.
      - PeterisP 8y ago
        If we're talking about UK, a pint of a stout is 568 ml at 5%+, which is 3 units.
    - bunderbunder 8y ago
      That's what a lot of sources in the US say, but, when they say, "drink", they mean "standard drink", which is this quasi-mythological beverage that one never encounters in real life. I honestly think that it's negligent on the part of public health folks to continue the practice. Saying "Drinking more than 2 drinks in X time will cause you to be legally impaired" is actively encouraging people to unwittingly drive drunk in a culture when a typical ABV for beer is about twice what it was when those standard were originally calculated, and non-highball cocktails typically contain at least two shots of liquor. "Unit" is so much better a term.
Shagadelic 8y ago
Forfeiting beer and whiskey? No thanks. Total digression, but does anyone here know of any drugs that cause neurogenesis? I speculate shrooms and acid might, but maybe I'm just delusional..
- mrsteveman1 8y ago
  > does anyone here know of any drugs that cause neurogenesis? Tianeptine is fairly well known[1][2] for being able to prevent and/or reverse changes like hippocampal volume loss, which is commonly seen in untreated depression[3], chronic stress[4] and several other conditions. 7,8-Dihydroxyflavone[5] derivatives and/or prodrugs also look promising[6]. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22047727 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22047727 [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4034085/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4034085/ [3] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1557684/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1557684/ [4] https://www.nature.com/articles/srep29127 https://www.nature.com/articles/srep29127 [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7,8-Dihydroxyflavone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7,8-Dihydroxyflavone [6] https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jm101206p https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jm101206p
- richerlariviere 8y ago
  Jon Hopkins university is conducting research on psychedelic. There is a whole universe of medical applications from what I saw but they need more funding to safely prove those.
- massaman_yams 8y ago
  Not a drug, of course, but don't leave physical exercise off your list.
bhouston 8y ago
Who funded this?
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
francisofascii 8y ago
Is this all related to sleep quality? Increased alcohol consumption decreases sleep quality, decreased sleep quality increases dementia risk, therefore increased alcohol consumption increases dementia risk.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- jstr 8y ago
  The study is suggesting the opposite relationship - that decreased wine consumption _increases_ the risk of developing dementia
  - emmelaich 8y ago
    It's suggesting both. Low and high consumption increase the risk. For the high consumers, impaired sleep might be a thing.
  - francisofascii 8y ago
    Small consumption may with sleep, but large consumption hinders quality sleep.
TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
> consuming large amounts (>21-28 units/week) was associated with an increased risk of dementia compared with light to moderate (7-21 units/week) consumption.4 The idea that 21 units of alcohol per week is moderate and also heavy drinking is.... preposterous. Consider: drinking alcohol (ethanol) is a Group 1 carcinogen.[1] There is no level of alcohol consumption that is safe. 21 units of alcohol per week should always be considered heavy drinking. 1. https://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancer-causes/general-info/known-and-probable-human-carcinogens.html https://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancer-causes/general-info/kno...
- tiatia123 8y ago
  Consider: "drinking alcohol (ethanol) is a Group 1 carcinogen.[1] There is no level of alcohol consumption that is safe." Bullshit! https://psmag.com/social-justice/truth-wont-admit-drinking-healthy-87891 https://psmag.com/social-justice/truth-wont-admit-drinking-h...
- xhrpost 8y ago
  Just finishing reading "Why We Sleep" and it talks about a lack of sufficient sleep being chronically linked with dementia. Alcohol is a major inhibitor of REM sleep, so if you go to sleep intoxicated, you may be technically asleep but you loose a lot of its benefits. So, I wonder if it's the alcohol -> limits effects of sleep -> induces dementia.
- modzu 8y ago
  a class 1 carcinogen only means the substance is known to cause cancer. this is not the same thing as saying "there is no level of consumption that is safe". from your own reference, "for any particular person, the risk of developing cancer depends on many factors, including how they are exposed to a carcinogen, the length and intensity of the exposure, and the person's genetic makeup."
- modzu 8y ago
  to be clear, a unit of alcohol is defined as 10ml, or the equivalent of 1/3 of a pint of beer. so 21 units a week is only equal to a single beer per day. i would not say its "preposterous" to call that moderate.
tiatia123 8y ago
I post it again: The Truth We Won’t Admit: Drinking Is Healthy https://psmag.com/social-justice/truth-wont-admit-drinking-healthy-87891 https://psmag.com/social-justice/truth-wont-admit-drinking-h... Super smart guy by the way. I am not sure why this gets downvoted. You may look up who this guy actually is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanton_Peele https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanton_Peele
- hendiatris 8y ago
  In light of this piece I'm curious about how countries with large sober populations (majority Muslim countries?) compare to others while accounting for other factors
  - mschuster91 8y ago
    > countries with large sober populations (majority Muslim countries?) Closet drinkers. Pay enough money and you can get alcohol everywhere, including booze parties in the midst of Teheran. It has been covered e.g. here: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/drunk-in-tehran-the-islamic-state-s-secret-party-scene-9217419.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/drunk-i...
    - tonysdg 8y ago
      Reminds me of an Iranian friend I had. We were talking once about weddings in different cultures, and I asked her about Iranian weddings. She laughed and told me that despite the ban on alcohol, every man at an Iranian wedding ended up drunk "somehow".
kamalkishor1991 8y ago
I wonder if these differences has something to do with the personality of drinkers? People who are drinking might be more aggressive and might also be phisically active or exercising more. Do we actually have any fundamental reason to believe if moderate alcohol might be okay?
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
barking 8y ago
Zero and heavy alcohol consumption could both be side-effects of isolation. Isolation is associated with dementia as a cause or an effect
yosito 8y ago
> Abstainers were mainly women, had lower education and physical activity, were obese, and had a higher prevalence of cardiometabolic risk factors, all associated with an increased risk of dementia Well, pretty hard to draw conclusions from this study then.
karmakaze 8y ago
I'd like to see the probability changes,not just as percent change but as decimal values. The problem with reporting 17% this and 67% that is that even with a 67% increase in one group it could still be less than the 17% of another. This could help distinguishing things that are less bad vs being positive depending on where it falls in the p-range.
jl2718 8y ago
As a non-drinker myself, I think this might have a lot to do with lack of sleep.
lobo_tuerto 8y ago
I'd like to see a study about the relation between Zen meditation and dementia.

139 points by barking 8y ago

polotics 8y ago

TL;DR: Get polyphenols in your diet. Wine is an option for this but there are others.

pluma 8y ago
My grandfather, a wine drinker all his life, suffered severe dementia in his final years. There is no magic bullet.
- cheeko1234 8y ago
  Anecdotal data is not evidence. My grandfather smoked 2 packs a day starting when he was 11 till he was 97 and didn't get lung cancer.
  - SubiculumCode 8y ago
    It is evidence of N=1.
wild_preference 8y ago
So basically vegetables, the stuff we already should be eating. Though sure is tempting to think some mysterious chemical in wine is a replacement.
PantaloonFlames 8y ago
Oops. I don't think the study showed that at all. You have jumped to a conclusion. Maybe it's valid, maybe not.

hprotagonist 8y ago

“moderation in all things”, as usual, seems like sage advice.

S-E-P 8y ago
maybe not all things... but most things :)
- wry_discontent 8y ago
  My favorite phrasing of that is a quote that I think is from Oscar Wilde: "moderation in all things, including moderation."
  - hprotagonist 8y ago
    and it’s even got the virtue of being true.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

stakhanov 8y ago

"Abstinence from alcohol in midlife, long term abstinence, and decrease in consumption were associated with a significantly higher risk of dementia of 45%, 67%, and 50%, respectively, compared with consumption of 1-14 units/week, but only among participants who reported abstinence from wine." I don't get that sentence. Doesn't abstinence from alcohol always imply abstinence from wine? Or is it saying that drinking 1-14 units/wk only lowers your risk compared to being abstinent if some of that consumption comes in the form of wine?

HillaryBriss 8y ago
yeah, that confuses me too. i was also surprised by the size of the effect. being an abstainer was associated with relatively large increased risks, as you highlight. and later it says "with every 7 unit/week increase, there was a significant 17% increase in dementia risk," which is quite a lot smaller than the effect from abstinence.
atwebb 8y ago
The next paragraph follows up a bit, the phrasing is odd but it helps clear up that the tenuous link is wine/wine components. >The most intriguing finding from this study was the significantly increased risk of dementia among abstainers, including long term abstainers and participants who became abstainers, and that association was only present in those who abstained from wine.
- kazinator 8y ago
  Doesn't clear up anything. A person who does not abstain from wine is not an alcohol abstainer. Among alcohol abstainers, there is no special category of those who abstain from wine; logically, they all must. A: "I don't play sports" B: "Which ones don't you play in particular?" A: "Tennis." B: "Ah too bad; the one I particularly don't play is soccer." A: "I guess we won't be enjoying our non-play of sports together then. Your avoidance of soccer requires the lack of a big field and complete absence of half a dozen other players so that a team is not accidentally formed; whereas my aversion toward tennis requires that there be no court or racquets."

pier25 8y ago

So what corresponds to one unit of alcohol? A glass of wine?

DanBC 8y ago
10ml of alcohol. You multiply the serving size in litres by the ABV number. 200 ml of wine at 12% = about 2.4 units. 330 ml of beer at 5% = about 1.6 units.
stakhanov 8y ago
It's a british thing. Drink manufacturers in the UK are obliged to declare the total amount of alcohol that's in the bottle using a "units" system, where half a litre of beer at 4% equates to roughly 2 units. So 14 units per week is a bottle of beer a day. https://www.drinkaware.co.uk/alcohol-facts/alcoholic-drinks-units/what-is-an-alcohol-unit/ https://www.drinkaware.co.uk/alcohol-facts/alcoholic-drinks-...
- pier25 8y ago
  Thank for the link!
jmcgough 8y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_of_alcohol https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_of_alcohol
rleigh 8y ago
10ml of pure ethanol.
- jdietrich 8y ago
  Or 57% of an American standard drink. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_drink https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_drink
analog31 8y ago
Amusingly, and unrelated to the topic, I was visiting Scotland, and at one historical site, there was a description of the rations given to each soldier. I further learned that a Scottish pint is 1.7 liters. I could only think to myself: What a nice country!

hyperpape 8y ago

Can anyone tell if this study avoids the "sick quitter" problem? (https://www.vox.com/2018/4/24/17242720/alcohol-health-risks-facts https://www.vox.com/2018/4/24/17242720/alcohol-health-risks-...)

throwaway183738 8y ago
See also: “sick non-exerciser”. There’s never enough discussion of correlation vs causation in these types of studies.
- stakhanov 8y ago
  Also makes you wonder if some of those wine/none-wine-alcohol effects are really female/male effects.
  - jdietrich 8y ago
    There are also class and ethnic biases - wine drinkers are disproportionately college-educated and caucasian.
    - stakhanov 8y ago
      ...reading the fulltext now. They were selected from among middle-aged civil servants in London in the late 80s/early 90s so the sample is way more homogeneous than the total population, certainly if the U.S. is what you're thinking of.
      - safanycom 8y ago
        In London... Polluted London, Leaded car fuel London
    - DKnoll 8y ago
      Is that anecdotal or are you citing something? Boxed wine is a favourite of derelict alcoholics because it's so cheap.

newswriter99 8y ago

>Abstainers were mainly women, had lower education and physical activity, were obese, and had a higher prevalence of cardiometabolic risk factors, all associated with an increased risk of dementia,11,12 which could explain the differences; however, adjustment for confounding factors did not alter the findings. This is why interactive data visualization is so important. People need to be able to adjust the results of data to fit them, otherwise the margin of error and deviation from the "average" will be so great, findings are virtually useless to an individual.

sdenton4 8y ago
OTOH, the link is weird enough that my guess is that it's hiding other factors... So mapping to your own experience isn't likely to tell you much. (Unless you are a large aggregate of other people.)
kazinator 8y ago
> however, adjustment for confounding factors did not alter the findings. Let me guess: adjusting for confounding factors means throwing away most of the data, so that all that remains is a small group of abstainers and non-abstainers who are similar in all regards except for the abstinence. Problem is, there may be more than one way to do that, with different results; then it's possible to choose a way of reducing the data to fit the desired hypothesis. The only honest way to fix a confounding bias in the data is to re-do the study with a properly randomized sample of subjects.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > Let me guess: adjusting for confounding factors means throwing away most of the data The usual method is statistical adjustment for the contributions attributable to other causes, not throwing out data.
- SubiculumCode 8y ago
  Are you seriously suggesting a study in which people are randomly assigned people to drinking conditions for decades? That is perposterous. Edit: To be clear, assignment to drinking conditions and following them over decades is unrealistic, would have problems with participant compliance, and is probably unethical.

jf- 8y ago

My first thought is a relationship with glutamate excitotoxicity. Fronto-temporal dementia is known to be related to glutamate. If that’s lumped in as part of the dementia cohort that may help explain the result.

Herodotus38 8y ago
Probably not a large factor because the prevalence of frontiers-temporal dementia is very small compared to vascular, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's. Anecdotally I see it in less than 1% of dementia patients. Incidence of FTD is around 2.7-4.1 per 100,000 people. Incidence for Alzheimer's is estimated to be roughly 10.5 per 1000 So although it's a good thought to have about the correlation, even if 100% of FTD cases were caused by that mechanism I don't think you'd see the difference they saw in the study. Sources: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3932112/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3932112/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3405821/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3405821/
- jf- 8y ago
  If I remember correctly, the mechanism underlying the glutamate toxicity is mutant SOD, which is made as a response to oxidative stress. The glutamate is simply an excitory stimulus that makes free radicals which need to be mopped up by something. Could be that other proteinopathies are a similar reaction to oxidative stress, and something that promotes GABA, such as alcohol, has a beneficial effect. But of course I’m only speculating.
  - Herodotus38 8y ago
    I'm not knowledgeable enough about the biology to really add much to what you said there either, even though I deal with the end results. Systems biology is one of those areas where I think AI will make a huge difference in the future. If you are interested in some thoughts on this listen to the first hour and a half talk by Craig Mundie (you can skip first 20 minutes of intro by Collins) of this recent NIH videocast on AI in medicine: https://videocast.nih.gov/summary.asp?live=28053&bhcp=1 https://videocast.nih.gov/summary.asp?live=28053&bhcp=1

stakhanov 8y ago

One more thing that comes to mind: So they're comparing people who drink 14 units/week (one beer a day) versus people who drink more than one beer a day. Are the differences in the effects observed really dominated by the presence of people in that second group who drink a second beer and then stop their drinking for the day, or by the presence in that group of really excessive drinkers.

Lukman 8y ago
14 units per week is two drinks a day.
- Lukman 8y ago
  Oh, sorry, just saw explanation below. In the US these studies equate 1 unit = 1 glass of wine or 1 beer, I could swear.
  - stakhanov 8y ago
    Haha, well in Bavaria what we think of as "a beer" is 500ml of beer at 4%, which is 20ml of pure alcohol, which is "2 units" in the UK.
    - PeterisP 8y ago
      If we're talking about UK, a pint of a stout is 568 ml at 5%+, which is 3 units.
  - bunderbunder 8y ago
    That's what a lot of sources in the US say, but, when they say, "drink", they mean "standard drink", which is this quasi-mythological beverage that one never encounters in real life. I honestly think that it's negligent on the part of public health folks to continue the practice. Saying "Drinking more than 2 drinks in X time will cause you to be legally impaired" is actively encouraging people to unwittingly drive drunk in a culture when a typical ABV for beer is about twice what it was when those standard were originally calculated, and non-highball cocktails typically contain at least two shots of liquor. "Unit" is so much better a term.

Shagadelic 8y ago

Forfeiting beer and whiskey? No thanks. Total digression, but does anyone here know of any drugs that cause neurogenesis? I speculate shrooms and acid might, but maybe I'm just delusional..

mrsteveman1 8y ago
> does anyone here know of any drugs that cause neurogenesis? Tianeptine is fairly well known[1][2] for being able to prevent and/or reverse changes like hippocampal volume loss, which is commonly seen in untreated depression[3], chronic stress[4] and several other conditions. 7,8-Dihydroxyflavone[5] derivatives and/or prodrugs also look promising[6]. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22047727 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22047727 [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4034085/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4034085/ [3] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1557684/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1557684/ [4] https://www.nature.com/articles/srep29127 https://www.nature.com/articles/srep29127 [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7,8-Dihydroxyflavone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7,8-Dihydroxyflavone [6] https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jm101206p https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jm101206p
richerlariviere 8y ago
Jon Hopkins university is conducting research on psychedelic. There is a whole universe of medical applications from what I saw but they need more funding to safely prove those.
massaman_yams 8y ago
Not a drug, of course, but don't leave physical exercise off your list.

bhouston 8y ago

Who funded this?

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francisofascii 8y ago

Is this all related to sleep quality? Increased alcohol consumption decreases sleep quality, decreased sleep quality increases dementia risk, therefore increased alcohol consumption increases dementia risk.

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jstr 8y ago
The study is suggesting the opposite relationship - that decreased wine consumption _increases_ the risk of developing dementia
- emmelaich 8y ago
  It's suggesting both. Low and high consumption increase the risk. For the high consumers, impaired sleep might be a thing.
- francisofascii 8y ago
  Small consumption may with sleep, but large consumption hinders quality sleep.

TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago

> consuming large amounts (>21-28 units/week) was associated with an increased risk of dementia compared with light to moderate (7-21 units/week) consumption.4 The idea that 21 units of alcohol per week is moderate and also heavy drinking is.... preposterous. Consider: drinking alcohol (ethanol) is a Group 1 carcinogen.[1] There is no level of alcohol consumption that is safe. 21 units of alcohol per week should always be considered heavy drinking. 1. https://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancer-causes/general-info/known-and-probable-human-carcinogens.html https://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancer-causes/general-info/kno...

tiatia123 8y ago
Consider: "drinking alcohol (ethanol) is a Group 1 carcinogen.[1] There is no level of alcohol consumption that is safe." Bullshit! https://psmag.com/social-justice/truth-wont-admit-drinking-healthy-87891 https://psmag.com/social-justice/truth-wont-admit-drinking-h...
xhrpost 8y ago
Just finishing reading "Why We Sleep" and it talks about a lack of sufficient sleep being chronically linked with dementia. Alcohol is a major inhibitor of REM sleep, so if you go to sleep intoxicated, you may be technically asleep but you loose a lot of its benefits. So, I wonder if it's the alcohol -> limits effects of sleep -> induces dementia.
modzu 8y ago
a class 1 carcinogen only means the substance is known to cause cancer. this is not the same thing as saying "there is no level of consumption that is safe". from your own reference, "for any particular person, the risk of developing cancer depends on many factors, including how they are exposed to a carcinogen, the length and intensity of the exposure, and the person's genetic makeup."
modzu 8y ago
to be clear, a unit of alcohol is defined as 10ml, or the equivalent of 1/3 of a pint of beer. so 21 units a week is only equal to a single beer per day. i would not say its "preposterous" to call that moderate.

tiatia123 8y ago

I post it again: The Truth We Won’t Admit: Drinking Is Healthy https://psmag.com/social-justice/truth-wont-admit-drinking-healthy-87891 https://psmag.com/social-justice/truth-wont-admit-drinking-h... Super smart guy by the way. I am not sure why this gets downvoted. You may look up who this guy actually is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanton_Peele https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanton_Peele

hendiatris 8y ago
In light of this piece I'm curious about how countries with large sober populations (majority Muslim countries?) compare to others while accounting for other factors
- mschuster91 8y ago
  > countries with large sober populations (majority Muslim countries?) Closet drinkers. Pay enough money and you can get alcohol everywhere, including booze parties in the midst of Teheran. It has been covered e.g. here: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/drunk-in-tehran-the-islamic-state-s-secret-party-scene-9217419.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/drunk-i...
  - tonysdg 8y ago
    Reminds me of an Iranian friend I had. We were talking once about weddings in different cultures, and I asked her about Iranian weddings. She laughed and told me that despite the ban on alcohol, every man at an Iranian wedding ended up drunk "somehow".

kamalkishor1991 8y ago

I wonder if these differences has something to do with the personality of drinkers? People who are drinking might be more aggressive and might also be phisically active or exercising more. Do we actually have any fundamental reason to believe if moderate alcohol might be okay?

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barking 8y ago

Zero and heavy alcohol consumption could both be side-effects of isolation. Isolation is associated with dementia as a cause or an effect

yosito 8y ago

karmakaze 8y ago

I'd like to see the probability changes,not just as percent change but as decimal values. The problem with reporting 17% this and 67% that is that even with a 67% increase in one group it could still be less than the 17% of another. This could help distinguishing things that are less bad vs being positive depending on where it falls in the p-range.

jl2718 8y ago

As a non-drinker myself, I think this might have a lot to do with lack of sleep.

lobo_tuerto 8y ago

I'd like to see a study about the relation between Zen meditation and dementia.