6 ms·

Would you have answered this job ad?

93 points by dhotson 19y ago

run4yourlives 19y ago
So, who'd he hire with that?
- henning 19y ago
  People whose idea of a customer support program was an Emacs Lisp script. http://bc.tech.coop/blog/060304.html http://bc.tech.coop/blog/060304.html
  - graywh 19y ago
    The quote on that post mentions pg as an Emacs users, but he's used vim for years.
    - henning 19y ago
      Yes, but Knuth, jwz and many other famous people are Emacs users.
- jamiequint 19y ago
  someone who is very rich now
prakash 19y ago
good find. was a seattle a big startup hub in the early 90's? What else was there besides MSFT in the tech sector?
- byrneseyeview 19y ago
  I believe Bezos relocated from New York to Seattle because it was cheap and because there was a major wholesale bookstore there.
plusbryan 19y ago
Probably not. Clearly, he has unrealistic expectations of success. Who would buy things on the internet?
- jdavid 19y ago
  in '94/'95 i remember my friends telling me about ebay in gym class. doh, i wish i would have seen the potential of selling your stuff to strangers.
  - jgrahamc 19y ago
    Must have been late 1995 (if not 1996) given eBay's start date.
    - jdavid 19y ago
      a few of my friends were really wired. one ended up dropping out of high school to program at $150k a year, others at $80k a year. It was an insane time. And it could have been another auction site, but i remember "something" bay. McHenry, IL had a pretty interesting BBS network. If only I was roaming on their instead of roaming on prodigy net.
- mynameishere 19y ago
  I think the real problem is his choice of languages. He's pretty much doomed.
- Andys 19y ago
  The real WTF(tm) is that the mailing address is listed along side the email/internet address!
aneesh 19y ago
Probably not (much to my regret). The only distinguishing factor is Bezos' name, and that is obvious only in retrospect. I see too many ads like this everyday for any one to stand out. Anyway, I'm going to console myself by saying I would've replied and seen them in person, and immediately realized they were onto something huge, blah blah blah
- henning 19y ago
  If anything the ad could discourage some because, not knowing any better, it may have looked like Bezos was one of those people who thinks you can make a late project finish sooner by working sweatshop hours (3x more hours to finish in 1/3 the time). Everyone asks for "communication skills" and everyone says they're the best and that their shit doesn't stink, too.
  - rp 19y ago
    Its important to remember that market for Internet skills was completely different back in 1994. Working sweatshop hours, and jumping to unknown VC-backed companies for a shot at an IPO was just part of the game. I will also note that the ad is promoting explicit high-level programming skills and states that "[F]amiliarity with web servers and HTML would be helpful but is not necessary." This would have cut-off a lot of people who were riding the "web development" bandwagon (rudimentary HTML, perhaps some CGI scripting) and gotten the attention of lot of skilled people looking to catch a quick IPO.
  - jdavid 19y ago
    in '94 my friends were learning assembly language, and c. had my father been an electrical engineer rather than a chemical and plastics engineer, i might have caught the bandwagon. instead i was learning CAD, and winning Math and Junior Engineering competitions. by 96 i was learning java with only the value of getting me away from my homework. looking back, i did not tell my teachers off enough in high school. (they actually tried to hold be back because the school was going to run out of math courses, and they wanted me to take spanish over engineering graphics. i should have taken programming independently too. oh well hind sight is 20/20 and will do none of us any good unless we can some how make use of a time machine)
sohail 19y ago
I was thinking "sweet" and then I saw the name and started laughing.
gaborcselle 19y ago
Compare: "You must have experience designing and building large and complex (yet maintainable) systems, and you should be able to do so in about one-third the time that most competent people think possible. You should have a BS, MS, or PhD in Computer Science or the equivalent." with: "Requirements: BS or MS in Computer Science or equivalent (PhD a plus). Several years of software development experience. Extensive experience programming in C++ and/or Java. Enthusiasm for solving interesting problems. Experience with Unix/Linux or Windows environments, C++ development, distributed systems, machine learning, information retrieval, network programming and/or developing large software systems a plus." The first is from Amazon, the latter is from Google. Great companies grow where top-notch engineers meet exciting market meet confident coworkers with high expectations. :-)
- nostrademons 19y ago
  Compare: "Energetic detail-oriented software engineer who wants to create systems with mind-numbing performance. Should enjoy working with people, solving non-trivial problems, and communicating these solutions. Should also wish to learn more about how others have engineered high-performance systems. We desire someone who is an expert in at least some of the following areas and eager to learn the others: distributed computing, compilers & interpreters, fault tolerance, network & storage devices, high-performance computation, algorithms & data structures, os/kernel experience." That's from my last employer, which has been around for 8 years and has I believe about 4 recurring customers. In the 2 years I was there, they got no new major customers and only a few consulting jobs. 3 key employees have left in the last 8 months. My point is that all job applications basically look alike. It's very difficult to pick out winners just from the job-app. In hindsight, the big successful companies all require top-notch engineers, exciting markets, and confident coworkers with high expectations. But many employers have that (or ask for it; it's often hard to tell the difference until you've been working there for a while) and still fail.
mattjung 19y ago
He was obviously looking for the right people for the right OS and programming languages at that time for highly scalable communication systems. Would be interesting to compare that with job offers of competitors of that time (who were those, btw?).
- byrneseyeview 19y ago
  I think there were a few technical bookstores online, but he was one of the very earliest, and certainly the first to try to have a larger scope (e.g. before it was 'let's sell our inventories online', Amazon's idea was 'let's sell every possible book online'). Interestingly enough, Amazon was (if I recall correctly) started as a research project: David Shaw (of the hedge fund D. E. Shaw) asked Bezos (then a VP there) for a list of ways to make money online. At the top of Bezos' list was bookstores. Shaw decided it wasn't worth the risk, Bezos decided it was, so Bezos left the company to found Amazon. Shaw ended up starting Juno, though, so it's not a total loss.
- angstrom 19y ago
  Well, at that time they hadn't branched out. So it really would've been Barnes & Nobel, Borders, and small books stores.
petercooper 19y ago
The quote in his signature is very prescient: "It's easier to invent the future than to predict it." -- Alan Kay
- tlrobinson 19y ago
  Great quote, but it was misquoted. It's actually: "The best way to predict the future is to invent it." http://www.smalltalk.org/alankay.html http://www.smalltalk.org/alankay.html
- neilk 19y ago
  Anybody who quotes Alan Kay (even a misquote) has my attention.
  - tlrobinson 19y ago
    Another good one: "Arrogance in computer science is measured in nano-Dijkstras" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7ROTJKkhuI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7ROTJKkhuI
kajecounterhack 19y ago
I wouldn't have the confidence to apply, thanks to "You must have experience designing and building large and complex (yet maintainable) systems, and you should be able to do so in about one-third the time that most competent people think possible."
jrnewton 19y ago
no, i don't _really_ know the platform or langauge (unix/c)..
kashif 19y ago
I was 14. Child labor...no no!
jdavid 19y ago
going to museums hardly makes me weep, but stuff like this touches a special place in my heart. i always wonder what the future of digital anthropology will be like, especially in the wake of DRM, and encryption.
aswanson 19y ago
Yeah, I was pretty broke in college.
jdavid 19y ago
something else to learn from this, is how we should all look for employees. a number of the books i have read like "good to great" and "built to last" have suggested the only true way to build a great company is to create an environment where the right people flock, and the wrong people leave on their own. setting the bar this high from the start will have this effect, and will give you the authority to tell someone the are good, but just not what you were looking for. it will keep your costs low, the expectations high, and the time you spend managing down. i wonder which amazon employee/ founder was hired as a result of that ad.
aswanson 19y ago
Maybe someone in the MA area will be kicking themselves for not answering this one in a few years: http://friendfeed.com/about/contact http://friendfeed.com/about/contact
- aswanson 19y ago
  As a clarification, I could see how this could read as a lame recruitment ploy for that company, and let me say that I am in no way affliated with friendfeed. I just wanted to point out that there are perhaps equivalent opportunities to the Amazon ad going on right now. Sorry to the friendfeed's if that happened. I can't figure out any other reason why someone would downmod, but hopefully it wasn't because of that.
- nostrademons 19y ago
  I may be one of those someones in the MA area. ;-) Actually, I can think of at least two offers that I may kick myself for not taking up. But if I did, I might kick myself for giving up my own startup. If only we all had 20/20 foresight...
  - aswanson 19y ago
    If only we all had 20/20 foresight.. Yeah, not nearly enough of that going around.
ardit33 19y ago
The add seems very reasonable (in the startup mentality kind of way): "Well-capitalized start-up seeks extremely talented C/C++/Unix developers to help pioneer commerce on the Internet. " -- Good. I want to work with only other top notch developers. "You must have experience designing and building large and complex (yet maintainable) systems, and you should be able to do so in about one-third the time that most competent people think possible. " -- Ok. I get it, you want the very good fast types. But are you willing to pay for it? "Familiarity with web servers and HTML would be helpful but is not necessary. " -- Awesome. You just showed that you know what is important. Don't you love adds that say must know HTML. How hard is to learn anyways? "Your compensation will include meaningful equity ownership. " -- Awesome. This is what I wanted to hear. You want great developers, but you are willing to compesate them in a meaningful and fair way. If I knew C/C++ that well, at the time, and if I wasn't in school, and if I was around the area of Seatles, I would have responded to his ad. I am still waiting for some ad like this, but in the mobile space.
- aneesh 19y ago
  1) Yeah, it's a reasonable ad - but that's my point. Almost all ads are "reasonable". You never see an ad saying "Startup looking for mediocre developers." Nothing about this one really resonates. 2) "if I wasn't in school, and if I was around the area of seatles". If I knew this was going to be Amazon, I would MOVE to Seattle and take a leave of absence from school.
  - allenbrunson 19y ago
    no, but you definitely see ads that don't smell right. the ones written in rigid language that require 5+ years in several mediocre technologies.
  - vlad 19y ago
    > You never see an ad saying "Startup looking for mediocre developers." Nothing about this one really resonates. Not true. Auctomatic had a job ad for a long time looking for a so-so developer. I answered it right away but was distracted from learning smalltalk at the time. Here it is: http://blog.auctomatic.com/?p=4 http://blog.auctomatic.com/?p=4 . It's hilarious.
DaniFong 19y ago
I've answered far less intriguing ads in my 'desperate for a job phase'. The fact is that I'm simply not looking at job ads most of the time, and I'll probably only work on something if I already know the person, or I really, really like the idea. So it really depends on whether or not I see it.
raghus 19y ago
Two years after that posting, comes this: http://groups.google.com/group/seattle.general/browse_thread/thread/4565a0ffdb19670b/0f3ba2135943ce01#0f3ba2135943ce01 http://groups.google.com/group/seattle.general/browse_thread...
sbt 19y ago
No. Suppose you're that good. Then you don't think you're that good.
wave 19y ago
It seems some replied back saying "commerce on the Internet will never work, because people prefer to buy things in stores". (click on "Show quoted text") http://tinyurl.com/52gdhr http://tinyurl.com/52gdhr
- acangiano 19y ago
  That's a joke. It's from 2003.
jrockway 19y ago
I would have answered it if they were hiring 9-year olds :) Although, I think I knew more C++ back then than I do now. Sad. :)
rexmo 19y ago
wot a boffin

93 points by dhotson 19y ago

run4yourlives 19y ago

So, who'd he hire with that?

henning 19y ago
People whose idea of a customer support program was an Emacs Lisp script. http://bc.tech.coop/blog/060304.html http://bc.tech.coop/blog/060304.html
- graywh 19y ago
  The quote on that post mentions pg as an Emacs users, but he's used vim for years.
  - henning 19y ago
    Yes, but Knuth, jwz and many other famous people are Emacs users.
jamiequint 19y ago
someone who is very rich now

prakash 19y ago

good find. was a seattle a big startup hub in the early 90's? What else was there besides MSFT in the tech sector?

byrneseyeview 19y ago
I believe Bezos relocated from New York to Seattle because it was cheap and because there was a major wholesale bookstore there.

plusbryan 19y ago

Probably not. Clearly, he has unrealistic expectations of success. Who would buy things on the internet?

jdavid 19y ago
in '94/'95 i remember my friends telling me about ebay in gym class. doh, i wish i would have seen the potential of selling your stuff to strangers.
- jgrahamc 19y ago
  Must have been late 1995 (if not 1996) given eBay's start date.
  - jdavid 19y ago
    a few of my friends were really wired. one ended up dropping out of high school to program at $150k a year, others at $80k a year. It was an insane time. And it could have been another auction site, but i remember "something" bay. McHenry, IL had a pretty interesting BBS network. If only I was roaming on their instead of roaming on prodigy net.
mynameishere 19y ago
I think the real problem is his choice of languages. He's pretty much doomed.
Andys 19y ago
The real WTF(tm) is that the mailing address is listed along side the email/internet address!

aneesh 19y ago

Probably not (much to my regret). The only distinguishing factor is Bezos' name, and that is obvious only in retrospect. I see too many ads like this everyday for any one to stand out. Anyway, I'm going to console myself by saying I would've replied and seen them in person, and immediately realized they were onto something huge, blah blah blah

henning 19y ago
If anything the ad could discourage some because, not knowing any better, it may have looked like Bezos was one of those people who thinks you can make a late project finish sooner by working sweatshop hours (3x more hours to finish in 1/3 the time). Everyone asks for "communication skills" and everyone says they're the best and that their shit doesn't stink, too.
- rp 19y ago
  Its important to remember that market for Internet skills was completely different back in 1994. Working sweatshop hours, and jumping to unknown VC-backed companies for a shot at an IPO was just part of the game. I will also note that the ad is promoting explicit high-level programming skills and states that "[F]amiliarity with web servers and HTML would be helpful but is not necessary." This would have cut-off a lot of people who were riding the "web development" bandwagon (rudimentary HTML, perhaps some CGI scripting) and gotten the attention of lot of skilled people looking to catch a quick IPO.
- jdavid 19y ago
  in '94 my friends were learning assembly language, and c. had my father been an electrical engineer rather than a chemical and plastics engineer, i might have caught the bandwagon. instead i was learning CAD, and winning Math and Junior Engineering competitions. by 96 i was learning java with only the value of getting me away from my homework. looking back, i did not tell my teachers off enough in high school. (they actually tried to hold be back because the school was going to run out of math courses, and they wanted me to take spanish over engineering graphics. i should have taken programming independently too. oh well hind sight is 20/20 and will do none of us any good unless we can some how make use of a time machine)

sohail 19y ago

I was thinking "sweet" and then I saw the name and started laughing.

gaborcselle 19y ago

Compare: "You must have experience designing and building large and complex (yet maintainable) systems, and you should be able to do so in about one-third the time that most competent people think possible. You should have a BS, MS, or PhD in Computer Science or the equivalent." with: "Requirements: BS or MS in Computer Science or equivalent (PhD a plus). Several years of software development experience. Extensive experience programming in C++ and/or Java. Enthusiasm for solving interesting problems. Experience with Unix/Linux or Windows environments, C++ development, distributed systems, machine learning, information retrieval, network programming and/or developing large software systems a plus." The first is from Amazon, the latter is from Google. Great companies grow where top-notch engineers meet exciting market meet confident coworkers with high expectations. :-)

nostrademons 19y ago
Compare: "Energetic detail-oriented software engineer who wants to create systems with mind-numbing performance. Should enjoy working with people, solving non-trivial problems, and communicating these solutions. Should also wish to learn more about how others have engineered high-performance systems. We desire someone who is an expert in at least some of the following areas and eager to learn the others: distributed computing, compilers & interpreters, fault tolerance, network & storage devices, high-performance computation, algorithms & data structures, os/kernel experience." That's from my last employer, which has been around for 8 years and has I believe about 4 recurring customers. In the 2 years I was there, they got no new major customers and only a few consulting jobs. 3 key employees have left in the last 8 months. My point is that all job applications basically look alike. It's very difficult to pick out winners just from the job-app. In hindsight, the big successful companies all require top-notch engineers, exciting markets, and confident coworkers with high expectations. But many employers have that (or ask for it; it's often hard to tell the difference until you've been working there for a while) and still fail.

mattjung 19y ago

He was obviously looking for the right people for the right OS and programming languages at that time for highly scalable communication systems. Would be interesting to compare that with job offers of competitors of that time (who were those, btw?).

byrneseyeview 19y ago
I think there were a few technical bookstores online, but he was one of the very earliest, and certainly the first to try to have a larger scope (e.g. before it was 'let's sell our inventories online', Amazon's idea was 'let's sell every possible book online'). Interestingly enough, Amazon was (if I recall correctly) started as a research project: David Shaw (of the hedge fund D. E. Shaw) asked Bezos (then a VP there) for a list of ways to make money online. At the top of Bezos' list was bookstores. Shaw decided it wasn't worth the risk, Bezos decided it was, so Bezos left the company to found Amazon. Shaw ended up starting Juno, though, so it's not a total loss.
angstrom 19y ago
Well, at that time they hadn't branched out. So it really would've been Barnes & Nobel, Borders, and small books stores.

petercooper 19y ago

The quote in his signature is very prescient: "It's easier to invent the future than to predict it." -- Alan Kay

tlrobinson 19y ago
Great quote, but it was misquoted. It's actually: "The best way to predict the future is to invent it." http://www.smalltalk.org/alankay.html http://www.smalltalk.org/alankay.html
neilk 19y ago
Anybody who quotes Alan Kay (even a misquote) has my attention.
- tlrobinson 19y ago
  Another good one: "Arrogance in computer science is measured in nano-Dijkstras" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7ROTJKkhuI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7ROTJKkhuI

kajecounterhack 19y ago

I wouldn't have the confidence to apply, thanks to "You must have experience designing and building large and complex (yet maintainable) systems, and you should be able to do so in about one-third the time that most competent people think possible."

jrnewton 19y ago

no, i don't _really_ know the platform or langauge (unix/c)..

kashif 19y ago

I was 14. Child labor...no no!

jdavid 19y ago

going to museums hardly makes me weep, but stuff like this touches a special place in my heart. i always wonder what the future of digital anthropology will be like, especially in the wake of DRM, and encryption.

aswanson 19y ago

Yeah, I was pretty broke in college.

jdavid 19y ago

something else to learn from this, is how we should all look for employees. a number of the books i have read like "good to great" and "built to last" have suggested the only true way to build a great company is to create an environment where the right people flock, and the wrong people leave on their own. setting the bar this high from the start will have this effect, and will give you the authority to tell someone the are good, but just not what you were looking for. it will keep your costs low, the expectations high, and the time you spend managing down. i wonder which amazon employee/ founder was hired as a result of that ad.

aswanson 19y ago

Maybe someone in the MA area will be kicking themselves for not answering this one in a few years: http://friendfeed.com/about/contact http://friendfeed.com/about/contact

aswanson 19y ago
As a clarification, I could see how this could read as a lame recruitment ploy for that company, and let me say that I am in no way affliated with friendfeed. I just wanted to point out that there are perhaps equivalent opportunities to the Amazon ad going on right now. Sorry to the friendfeed's if that happened. I can't figure out any other reason why someone would downmod, but hopefully it wasn't because of that.
nostrademons 19y ago
I may be one of those someones in the MA area. ;-) Actually, I can think of at least two offers that I may kick myself for not taking up. But if I did, I might kick myself for giving up my own startup. If only we all had 20/20 foresight...
- aswanson 19y ago
  If only we all had 20/20 foresight.. Yeah, not nearly enough of that going around.

ardit33 19y ago

The add seems very reasonable (in the startup mentality kind of way): "Well-capitalized start-up seeks extremely talented C/C++/Unix developers to help pioneer commerce on the Internet. " -- Good. I want to work with only other top notch developers. "You must have experience designing and building large and complex (yet maintainable) systems, and you should be able to do so in about one-third the time that most competent people think possible. " -- Ok. I get it, you want the very good fast types. But are you willing to pay for it? "Familiarity with web servers and HTML would be helpful but is not necessary. " -- Awesome. You just showed that you know what is important. Don't you love adds that say must know HTML. How hard is to learn anyways? "Your compensation will include meaningful equity ownership. " -- Awesome. This is what I wanted to hear. You want great developers, but you are willing to compesate them in a meaningful and fair way. If I knew C/C++ that well, at the time, and if I wasn't in school, and if I was around the area of Seatles, I would have responded to his ad. I am still waiting for some ad like this, but in the mobile space.

aneesh 19y ago
1) Yeah, it's a reasonable ad - but that's my point. Almost all ads are "reasonable". You never see an ad saying "Startup looking for mediocre developers." Nothing about this one really resonates. 2) "if I wasn't in school, and if I was around the area of seatles". If I knew this was going to be Amazon, I would MOVE to Seattle and take a leave of absence from school.
- allenbrunson 19y ago
  no, but you definitely see ads that don't smell right. the ones written in rigid language that require 5+ years in several mediocre technologies.
- vlad 19y ago
  > You never see an ad saying "Startup looking for mediocre developers." Nothing about this one really resonates. Not true. Auctomatic had a job ad for a long time looking for a so-so developer. I answered it right away but was distracted from learning smalltalk at the time. Here it is: http://blog.auctomatic.com/?p=4 http://blog.auctomatic.com/?p=4 . It's hilarious.

DaniFong 19y ago

I've answered far less intriguing ads in my 'desperate for a job phase'. The fact is that I'm simply not looking at job ads most of the time, and I'll probably only work on something if I already know the person, or I really, really like the idea. So it really depends on whether or not I see it.

raghus 19y ago

Two years after that posting, comes this: http://groups.google.com/group/seattle.general/browse_thread/thread/4565a0ffdb19670b/0f3ba2135943ce01#0f3ba2135943ce01 http://groups.google.com/group/seattle.general/browse_thread...

sbt 19y ago

No. Suppose you're that good. Then you don't think you're that good.

wave 19y ago

It seems some replied back saying "commerce on the Internet will never work, because people prefer to buy things in stores". (click on "Show quoted text") http://tinyurl.com/52gdhr http://tinyurl.com/52gdhr

acangiano 19y ago
That's a joke. It's from 2003.

jrockway 19y ago

I would have answered it if they were hiring 9-year olds :) Although, I think I knew more C++ back then than I do now. Sad. :)

rexmo 19y ago

wot a boffin