12 ms·

To point #1. That happens still to today. It is a matter of education and resources. Unfortunately, both are low in Brazil. To point #2. Any guest in Brazil wi

To point #1. That happens still to today. It is a matter of education and resources. Unfortunately, both are low in Brazil. To point #2. Any guest in Brazil will be treated differently during their visit. https://jornalistaheitormenezes.blogspot.com/2015/11/o-carnaval-de-richard-feynman-no-brasil.html https://jornalistaheitormenezes.blogspot.com/2015/11/o-carna... has some interesting historical context about Feynman's trips to Brazil.

sonnyblarney 8y ago
As to 1, no, it's neither 'education' nor 'lack of resources' really. It's a matter of conscientiousness and responsibility. Even if there were no signs immediately available, nobody with an ounce of decency would leave a large hole unmarked. Signs are not expensive, if they're not available it's because of a lack of intelligent and responsible acting somewhere else in in the value chain. As for #2, it's still a lack of conscientiousness. The students should (at least try) to go to their lecture, that the prof should try to give. Surely, a visit to Brazil warrants a quick hop to the beach at minimum but there's no reason people can't do what they are supposed to do all around. 99% of the world's problems would be solved if we all just acted with very basic levels of conscientiousness and responsibility: show up, do the basic work, think a little bit, be nice, don't be corrupt, try to do good work ... commensurate with increasing levels of responsibility obviously, but 'hole diggers' still need to do their jobs with responsibility and a little bit of pride.
- cm2012 8y ago
  It's true that not putting up road signs doesn't tie clearly to education and resources. It's also true that societal education and resources over time correlates strongly with putting up road signs, as the Japan anecdote suggests.
  - sonnyblarney 8y ago
    They are all correlated and I'm not pointing fingers. A society in which nobody give a crap ... it's hard to find people that will consistently rise above.
    - dmix 8y ago
      Indeed, it's also dangerous to be so passe about everything. Especially construction. Just because it's a cultural phenomenon doesn't make it an admirable one or one that should just be accepted as 'how it is'. Plenty of cultures have evolved and changed for the better. A subset of Scots from an area near the border on England used to be known for having a culture where fist fighting over disputes was common and education was looked down upon. Many of these groups migrated to the American south and eventually moved on from violence and education rates have since drastically improved. You can be critical or concerned about a culture phenomenon without dismissing the culture outright like some racist book in the 1920s about Japanese...
      - cm2012 8y ago
        Completely agreed. Didn't mean to imply otherwise!
- alokrai 8y ago
  As for #2, I don't think Feynman meant that the students won't show up for their lecture. It's just they would prefer to have their lectures in afternoon. In fact, from his writing in the later sections of that chapter, it seems that they did show up for their lectures. I find explanation in the previous comment, that as a visitor Feynman may have been held to a different standard in order to make his stay more pleasant, quite reasonable.
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago
  >99% of the world's problems would be solved if we all just acted with very basic levels of conscientiousness and responsibility Your expectations and the expectations in most parts of the west are that everyone take care to protect others from being harmed by their actions. Brazil, Indonesia, India, etc, expect people to be vigilant and steer clear of things that may do them harm. The only reason you see that as wrong is because it is foreign to you. If you grew up and lived in a different culture you'd almost certainly see that as right and anything opposite to that as wrong. In the west we get everything in writing when we do business and rely on the ability of courts to enforce a contract to protect us when things go wrong (and this adds a lot of overhead, yes this has increased a lot in the past few generations). In China they rely less on contracts and legal solutions and rely more on the effects of a good/bad reputation to protect them from business dealings that go wrong. In the west we don't take people to court if we don't have to but it's the power of the court and ability to take things to court if needed that keeps things running smoothly, in other places the value of one's reputation performs that function. Expectations of timeliness is another aspect by which cultures vary (as discussed at length in TFA). A meeting that starts on on time in Brazil would probably not be much appreciated. If meeting started late in Japan an apology would be in order at the very least. These are just three examples of aspects of society that vary from culture to culture. Which is wrong and right depends on what you're used to. Personal physical safety is more likely to bring out people's inner puritanical crusader than the latter two which is why it tends to evoke such strong emotions. Edit: changed the timing and contract law examples per comments.
  - AlexB138 8y ago
    In many societies they mutilate the genitals of female children. In many others they carry out honor killings when a member of the family acts, as they see it, incorrectly. These are two examples of aspect of society that vary from culture to culture. Cultural relativism is largely nonsense. Leaving a giant pit in the road for people to drive into is objectively a dangerous and selfish thing to do. Whether the expectation in the country is that people will do dangerous and selfish things doesn't change that fact, it just means the society has some huge problems.
    - 8y ago
- brbrbrbrbr 8y ago
  that's what I meant by education, not formal education per se but social responsibility and conscientiousness. It is easy to take that for granted in first world countries. As for signs are not expensive. You gotta go to Brazil and see with your own eyes then. Brazilians are hard worker, just go and check with your own eyes. The problem is a bit deeper in my opinion and experience.
  - ecocentrik 8y ago
    You mean social norms, not "education". In in some cultures a disregard for these norms is sometimes referred to as a "lack of education", implying the individual's behavior is the result of bad parenting. This assumption is usually a coping mechanism, a simplistic attempt at a resolution of cultural conflict by asserting that one set of norms are better than those of their cultural antagonist. In cases of cultural conflict, where cultures with sets of incompatible norms attempt to coexist, the result is usually conflict followed by the establishment of new refined sets of norms shared cultures. Road work signage is an issue of liability in the US, not courtesy.
    - sooheon 8y ago
      Why so adamant that the two are mutually exclusive? The reason road work signage has been legislated (or socially defined) into an issue of liability is, again, due to education.
- jklinger410 8y ago
  I love your response because it's a great take-down of the "everything is relative and cultural" argument, which I have always thought comes from an overactive imagination. When you start to reduce life down to simplistic concepts, everything is not relative and cultural. Sure, maybe on the fringes (.01%) there are situations that are heavily influenced by those. But for most things in life (near or on mazlowe's hierarchy) it is almost like math, or a logic puzzle. Brazilians don't leave uncovered holes in the street because of something entirely logical within their own culture. They leave because they are lazy and do not care for the level of danger it represents to others. To imply otherwise is simply dressing a pig.
  - schoen 8y ago
    When I first went to Rio in 2003 and saw the greater abundance of moderately dangerous situations compared to U.S. cities, I thought it was partly due to differences in legal systems and legal culture. In the U.S., an accident resulting in personal injury is very likely to lead to a lawsuit and there are a huge number of lawyers entirely specialized in personal injury cases. This is less so in Brazil. I don't have a clear answer about where that difference comes from, but I thought it was a factor in people's differing behavior.
    - neves 8y ago
      The justice system is really slow and expensive. It can take years to end a lawsuit. Judges have 2 months and a half of vacation and most of them work less than 8 daily hours.
  - novacole 8y ago
    I think a better approach than calling them lazy, would be to look into how easy it is to sue, who can be sued and what the difference is between the limit on liquidated damages allowable between the “lazy” countries and a place like the US.
  - jackvezkovic 8y ago
    > They leave because they are lazy... Probably sounds better in the original German. These proofs by anecdotes are really fast food for the biased mind. Just as a thought experiment, if Brazilians are inherently 'lazy' as you say and it has nothing to do with the environment that they are in and its incentives, then are they also lazy abroad? Do they also forget to put signs when they dig holes? Do they do a worse service in restaurants? Do they work less than their coworkers? Are they also consistently late? Is this not the case because they are from a biased sample of non-lazy Brazilians that leave the country? Or maybe Brazilians are not inherently lazy? Just a few questions for the debate.
- sooheon 8y ago
  Conscientiousness is taught and learned. You weren't born with your current conception of what it means to be a conscientious member of society, you learned it explicitly and through osmosis. "Nobody with an ounce of decency" is an unnecessarily loaded way to refer to people who, frankly, are who they are through no real fault of their own.
  - sonnyblarney 8y ago
    I agree with most of that but this: "are who they are through no real fault of their own" This is the ultimate cultural relativism rubbish, no offence, but people make their own decisions in life. It's this kind of reasoning that some try to use to absolve murderers and thugs for their actions. Surely on some level we're all the result of our upbringing, but we also have to take responsibility for what we are at some point.
iKevinShah 8y ago
"It is a matter of education and resources" Education? Sure, but resources are in no way low in Brazil unless you mean very specific resource(s).
- cm2012 8y ago
  GDP per capita is $8600 compared to USA $57000. It's all relative.
  - southerndrift 8y ago
    It's relative all the way down: the resources to mark the hole are cheaper, too.
  - Retric 8y ago
    It’s closer to 15,000 in terms of PPP. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PP... But even 8,600 is high relative to the US in 1920’s when the economy was seen as booming. In many ways it’s the perception of wealth and a poor social safty net that’s at issue not resources.
latch 8y ago
I don't know about #1. When I lived in Hong Kong, major road/sidewalk repair often seemed, by western style, unsafe. I never really figured out why, but it seemed more of you can lead a horse to water ... Having spent the first half of my life in Canada, and the second in Asia, I've quickly realized that Canadians (and, I assume most of the west) are overprotected (insurance, medicine, health schemes, regulations, big brother, and, most obviously, food safety). (While it isn't unique to Hong Kong, Hong Kong is the most affluent place I've seen this widespread).
MadSudaca 8y ago
It seems to me that #1 is a matter of lack of responsibility. In the US if you dig a hole and someone falls in it because there were no signs, I think you'd get sued to hell. The company, if it survices, would find who's responsible for the bad decision of not putting any signs, and punish that person accordingly for their lack of foresight. Next time that or another person, if they learned from the mistake, will be more careful. Why is there no such focus towards responsibility in Brazil? That's the question imo.
- point78 8y ago
  Sued to hell in a country with 1/10 the money of the western world doesn't mean a lot.
- senorjazz 8y ago
  because it is your responsibility not to walk blindly into a hole. Why the US is so blame happy, rather than personal responsibility, that is the question. -------------------- Just different cultures
  - Matt3o12_ 8y ago
    They are many reasons why people fall into a hole if it is not clearly marked. Some people have bad sight and may not be able to see a hole but are able to see flashy signs. Should people who have bad sight not be able to navigate freely? Furthermore, this is about driving and not walking, and during the night. It shouldn't come as a surprise that people are not able to see a black hole on black cement at 'high' speeds (50kph/30mph). Add a little bit of rain or fog, and it's just a recipe for disaster. Maybe if people are aware that workers do stuff like that, they are a little bit more careful but it's probably too late when you finally see it. The problem here is that there is a culture that does not care very much about their action towards others and think it's not their responsibility and nothing is going to happen to them. While I liked my stay in Brazil a lot (although it was only for a few days), the difference is quite obvious.
  - forkerenok 8y ago
    Well, it's actually both. We get a decent buffer of safety only if all parties take precautions.

sonnyblarney 8y ago

As to 1, no, it's neither 'education' nor 'lack of resources' really. It's a matter of conscientiousness and responsibility. Even if there were no signs immediately available, nobody with an ounce of decency would leave a large hole unmarked. Signs are not expensive, if they're not available it's because of a lack of intelligent and responsible acting somewhere else in in the value chain. As for #2, it's still a lack of conscientiousness. The students should (at least try) to go to their lecture, that the prof should try to give. Surely, a visit to Brazil warrants a quick hop to the beach at minimum but there's no reason people can't do what they are supposed to do all around. 99% of the world's problems would be solved if we all just acted with very basic levels of conscientiousness and responsibility: show up, do the basic work, think a little bit, be nice, don't be corrupt, try to do good work ... commensurate with increasing levels of responsibility obviously, but 'hole diggers' still need to do their jobs with responsibility and a little bit of pride.

cm2012 8y ago
It's true that not putting up road signs doesn't tie clearly to education and resources. It's also true that societal education and resources over time correlates strongly with putting up road signs, as the Japan anecdote suggests.
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  They are all correlated and I'm not pointing fingers. A society in which nobody give a crap ... it's hard to find people that will consistently rise above.
  - dmix 8y ago
    Indeed, it's also dangerous to be so passe about everything. Especially construction. Just because it's a cultural phenomenon doesn't make it an admirable one or one that should just be accepted as 'how it is'. Plenty of cultures have evolved and changed for the better. A subset of Scots from an area near the border on England used to be known for having a culture where fist fighting over disputes was common and education was looked down upon. Many of these groups migrated to the American south and eventually moved on from violence and education rates have since drastically improved. You can be critical or concerned about a culture phenomenon without dismissing the culture outright like some racist book in the 1920s about Japanese...
    - cm2012 8y ago
      Completely agreed. Didn't mean to imply otherwise!
alokrai 8y ago
As for #2, I don't think Feynman meant that the students won't show up for their lecture. It's just they would prefer to have their lectures in afternoon. In fact, from his writing in the later sections of that chapter, it seems that they did show up for their lectures. I find explanation in the previous comment, that as a visitor Feynman may have been held to a different standard in order to make his stay more pleasant, quite reasonable.
dsfyu404ed 8y ago
>99% of the world's problems would be solved if we all just acted with very basic levels of conscientiousness and responsibility Your expectations and the expectations in most parts of the west are that everyone take care to protect others from being harmed by their actions. Brazil, Indonesia, India, etc, expect people to be vigilant and steer clear of things that may do them harm. The only reason you see that as wrong is because it is foreign to you. If you grew up and lived in a different culture you'd almost certainly see that as right and anything opposite to that as wrong. In the west we get everything in writing when we do business and rely on the ability of courts to enforce a contract to protect us when things go wrong (and this adds a lot of overhead, yes this has increased a lot in the past few generations). In China they rely less on contracts and legal solutions and rely more on the effects of a good/bad reputation to protect them from business dealings that go wrong. In the west we don't take people to court if we don't have to but it's the power of the court and ability to take things to court if needed that keeps things running smoothly, in other places the value of one's reputation performs that function. Expectations of timeliness is another aspect by which cultures vary (as discussed at length in TFA). A meeting that starts on on time in Brazil would probably not be much appreciated. If meeting started late in Japan an apology would be in order at the very least. These are just three examples of aspects of society that vary from culture to culture. Which is wrong and right depends on what you're used to. Personal physical safety is more likely to bring out people's inner puritanical crusader than the latter two which is why it tends to evoke such strong emotions. Edit: changed the timing and contract law examples per comments.
- AlexB138 8y ago
  In many societies they mutilate the genitals of female children. In many others they carry out honor killings when a member of the family acts, as they see it, incorrectly. These are two examples of aspect of society that vary from culture to culture. Cultural relativism is largely nonsense. Leaving a giant pit in the road for people to drive into is objectively a dangerous and selfish thing to do. Whether the expectation in the country is that people will do dangerous and selfish things doesn't change that fact, it just means the society has some huge problems.
  - 8y ago
brbrbrbrbr 8y ago
that's what I meant by education, not formal education per se but social responsibility and conscientiousness. It is easy to take that for granted in first world countries. As for signs are not expensive. You gotta go to Brazil and see with your own eyes then. Brazilians are hard worker, just go and check with your own eyes. The problem is a bit deeper in my opinion and experience.
- ecocentrik 8y ago
  You mean social norms, not "education". In in some cultures a disregard for these norms is sometimes referred to as a "lack of education", implying the individual's behavior is the result of bad parenting. This assumption is usually a coping mechanism, a simplistic attempt at a resolution of cultural conflict by asserting that one set of norms are better than those of their cultural antagonist. In cases of cultural conflict, where cultures with sets of incompatible norms attempt to coexist, the result is usually conflict followed by the establishment of new refined sets of norms shared cultures. Road work signage is an issue of liability in the US, not courtesy.
  - sooheon 8y ago
    Why so adamant that the two are mutually exclusive? The reason road work signage has been legislated (or socially defined) into an issue of liability is, again, due to education.
jklinger410 8y ago
I love your response because it's a great take-down of the "everything is relative and cultural" argument, which I have always thought comes from an overactive imagination. When you start to reduce life down to simplistic concepts, everything is not relative and cultural. Sure, maybe on the fringes (.01%) there are situations that are heavily influenced by those. But for most things in life (near or on mazlowe's hierarchy) it is almost like math, or a logic puzzle. Brazilians don't leave uncovered holes in the street because of something entirely logical within their own culture. They leave because they are lazy and do not care for the level of danger it represents to others. To imply otherwise is simply dressing a pig.
- schoen 8y ago
  When I first went to Rio in 2003 and saw the greater abundance of moderately dangerous situations compared to U.S. cities, I thought it was partly due to differences in legal systems and legal culture. In the U.S., an accident resulting in personal injury is very likely to lead to a lawsuit and there are a huge number of lawyers entirely specialized in personal injury cases. This is less so in Brazil. I don't have a clear answer about where that difference comes from, but I thought it was a factor in people's differing behavior.
  - neves 8y ago
    The justice system is really slow and expensive. It can take years to end a lawsuit. Judges have 2 months and a half of vacation and most of them work less than 8 daily hours.
- novacole 8y ago
  I think a better approach than calling them lazy, would be to look into how easy it is to sue, who can be sued and what the difference is between the limit on liquidated damages allowable between the “lazy” countries and a place like the US.
- jackvezkovic 8y ago
  > They leave because they are lazy... Probably sounds better in the original German. These proofs by anecdotes are really fast food for the biased mind. Just as a thought experiment, if Brazilians are inherently 'lazy' as you say and it has nothing to do with the environment that they are in and its incentives, then are they also lazy abroad? Do they also forget to put signs when they dig holes? Do they do a worse service in restaurants? Do they work less than their coworkers? Are they also consistently late? Is this not the case because they are from a biased sample of non-lazy Brazilians that leave the country? Or maybe Brazilians are not inherently lazy? Just a few questions for the debate.
sooheon 8y ago
Conscientiousness is taught and learned. You weren't born with your current conception of what it means to be a conscientious member of society, you learned it explicitly and through osmosis. "Nobody with an ounce of decency" is an unnecessarily loaded way to refer to people who, frankly, are who they are through no real fault of their own.
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  I agree with most of that but this: "are who they are through no real fault of their own" This is the ultimate cultural relativism rubbish, no offence, but people make their own decisions in life. It's this kind of reasoning that some try to use to absolve murderers and thugs for their actions. Surely on some level we're all the result of our upbringing, but we also have to take responsibility for what we are at some point.

iKevinShah 8y ago

"It is a matter of education and resources" Education? Sure, but resources are in no way low in Brazil unless you mean very specific resource(s).

cm2012 8y ago
GDP per capita is $8600 compared to USA $57000. It's all relative.
- southerndrift 8y ago
  It's relative all the way down: the resources to mark the hole are cheaper, too.
- Retric 8y ago
  It’s closer to 15,000 in terms of PPP. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PP... But even 8,600 is high relative to the US in 1920’s when the economy was seen as booming. In many ways it’s the perception of wealth and a poor social safty net that’s at issue not resources.

latch 8y ago

I don't know about #1. When I lived in Hong Kong, major road/sidewalk repair often seemed, by western style, unsafe. I never really figured out why, but it seemed more of you can lead a horse to water ... Having spent the first half of my life in Canada, and the second in Asia, I've quickly realized that Canadians (and, I assume most of the west) are overprotected (insurance, medicine, health schemes, regulations, big brother, and, most obviously, food safety). (While it isn't unique to Hong Kong, Hong Kong is the most affluent place I've seen this widespread).

MadSudaca 8y ago

It seems to me that #1 is a matter of lack of responsibility. In the US if you dig a hole and someone falls in it because there were no signs, I think you'd get sued to hell. The company, if it survices, would find who's responsible for the bad decision of not putting any signs, and punish that person accordingly for their lack of foresight. Next time that or another person, if they learned from the mistake, will be more careful. Why is there no such focus towards responsibility in Brazil? That's the question imo.

point78 8y ago
Sued to hell in a country with 1/10 the money of the western world doesn't mean a lot.
senorjazz 8y ago
because it is your responsibility not to walk blindly into a hole. Why the US is so blame happy, rather than personal responsibility, that is the question. -------------------- Just different cultures
- Matt3o12_ 8y ago
  They are many reasons why people fall into a hole if it is not clearly marked. Some people have bad sight and may not be able to see a hole but are able to see flashy signs. Should people who have bad sight not be able to navigate freely? Furthermore, this is about driving and not walking, and during the night. It shouldn't come as a surprise that people are not able to see a black hole on black cement at 'high' speeds (50kph/30mph). Add a little bit of rain or fog, and it's just a recipe for disaster. Maybe if people are aware that workers do stuff like that, they are a little bit more careful but it's probably too late when you finally see it. The problem here is that there is a culture that does not care very much about their action towards others and think it's not their responsibility and nothing is going to happen to them. While I liked my stay in Brazil a lot (although it was only for a few days), the difference is quite obvious.
- forkerenok 8y ago
  Well, it's actually both. We get a decent buffer of safety only if all parties take precautions.