8 ms·

Richard Feynman on Brazil: 1. “That evening I went for a walk in town, and came upon a small crowd of people standing around a great big rectangular hole in th

Richard Feynman on Brazil: 1. “That evening I went for a walk in town, and came upon a small crowd of people standing around a great big rectangular hole in the road—it had been “dug for sewer pipes, or something—and there, sitting exactly in the hole, was a car. It was marvelous: it fitted absolutely perfectly, with its roof level with the road. The workmen hadn’t bothered to put up any signs at the end of the day, and the guy had simply driven into it. I noticed a difference: When we’d dig a hole, there’d be all kinds of detour signs and flashing lights to protect us. There, they dig the hole, and when they’re finished for the day, they just leave.” 2. “When I got to the center, we had to decide when I would give my lectures—in the morning, or afternoon. Lattes said, “The students prefer the afternoon.” “So let’s have them in the afternoon.” “But the beach is nice in the afternoon, so why don’t you give the lectures in the morning, so you can enjoy the beach in the afternoon.” “But you said the students prefer to have them “in the afternoon.” “Don’t worry about that. Do what’s most convenient for you! Enjoy the beach in the afternoon.” So I learned how to look at life in a way that’s different from the way it is where I come from. First, they weren’t in the same hurry that I was. And second, if it’s better for you, never mind!” Excerpt From: Richard Phillips Feynman. “Surely You’re Joking, Mr. Feynman”: Adventures of a Curious Character.”

brbrbrbrbr 8y ago
To point #1. That happens still to today. It is a matter of education and resources. Unfortunately, both are low in Brazil. To point #2. Any guest in Brazil will be treated differently during their visit. https://jornalistaheitormenezes.blogspot.com/2015/11/o-carnaval-de-richard-feynman-no-brasil.html https://jornalistaheitormenezes.blogspot.com/2015/11/o-carna... has some interesting historical context about Feynman's trips to Brazil.
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  As to 1, no, it's neither 'education' nor 'lack of resources' really. It's a matter of conscientiousness and responsibility. Even if there were no signs immediately available, nobody with an ounce of decency would leave a large hole unmarked. Signs are not expensive, if they're not available it's because of a lack of intelligent and responsible acting somewhere else in in the value chain. As for #2, it's still a lack of conscientiousness. The students should (at least try) to go to their lecture, that the prof should try to give. Surely, a visit to Brazil warrants a quick hop to the beach at minimum but there's no reason people can't do what they are supposed to do all around. 99% of the world's problems would be solved if we all just acted with very basic levels of conscientiousness and responsibility: show up, do the basic work, think a little bit, be nice, don't be corrupt, try to do good work ... commensurate with increasing levels of responsibility obviously, but 'hole diggers' still need to do their jobs with responsibility and a little bit of pride.
  - cm2012 8y ago
    It's true that not putting up road signs doesn't tie clearly to education and resources. It's also true that societal education and resources over time correlates strongly with putting up road signs, as the Japan anecdote suggests.
    - sonnyblarney 8y ago
      They are all correlated and I'm not pointing fingers. A society in which nobody give a crap ... it's hard to find people that will consistently rise above.
      - dmix 8y ago
        Indeed, it's also dangerous to be so passe about everything. Especially construction. Just because it's a cultural phenomenon doesn't make it an admirable one or one that should just be accepted as 'how it is'. Plenty of cultures have evolved and changed for the better. A subset of Scots from an area near the border on England used to be known for having a culture where fist fighting over disputes was common and education was looked down upon. Many of these groups migrated to the American south and eventually moved on from violence and education rates have since drastically improved. You can be critical or concerned about a culture phenomenon without dismissing the culture outright like some racist book in the 1920s about Japanese...
        cm2012 8y ago
        Completely agreed. Didn't mean to imply otherwise!
  - alokrai 8y ago
    As for #2, I don't think Feynman meant that the students won't show up for their lecture. It's just they would prefer to have their lectures in afternoon. In fact, from his writing in the later sections of that chapter, it seems that they did show up for their lectures. I find explanation in the previous comment, that as a visitor Feynman may have been held to a different standard in order to make his stay more pleasant, quite reasonable.
- iKevinShah 8y ago
  "It is a matter of education and resources" Education? Sure, but resources are in no way low in Brazil unless you mean very specific resource(s).
  - cm2012 8y ago
    GDP per capita is $8600 compared to USA $57000. It's all relative.
    - southerndrift 8y ago
      It's relative all the way down: the resources to mark the hole are cheaper, too.
    - Retric 8y ago
      It’s closer to 15,000 in terms of PPP. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PP... But even 8,600 is high relative to the US in 1920’s when the economy was seen as booming. In many ways it’s the perception of wealth and a poor social safty net that’s at issue not resources.
- latch 8y ago
  I don't know about #1. When I lived in Hong Kong, major road/sidewalk repair often seemed, by western style, unsafe. I never really figured out why, but it seemed more of you can lead a horse to water ... Having spent the first half of my life in Canada, and the second in Asia, I've quickly realized that Canadians (and, I assume most of the west) are overprotected (insurance, medicine, health schemes, regulations, big brother, and, most obviously, food safety). (While it isn't unique to Hong Kong, Hong Kong is the most affluent place I've seen this widespread).
- MadSudaca 8y ago
  It seems to me that #1 is a matter of lack of responsibility. In the US if you dig a hole and someone falls in it because there were no signs, I think you'd get sued to hell. The company, if it survices, would find who's responsible for the bad decision of not putting any signs, and punish that person accordingly for their lack of foresight. Next time that or another person, if they learned from the mistake, will be more careful. Why is there no such focus towards responsibility in Brazil? That's the question imo.
  - point78 8y ago
    Sued to hell in a country with 1/10 the money of the western world doesn't mean a lot.
  - senorjazz 8y ago
    because it is your responsibility not to walk blindly into a hole. Why the US is so blame happy, rather than personal responsibility, that is the question. -------------------- Just different cultures
    - Matt3o12_ 8y ago
      They are many reasons why people fall into a hole if it is not clearly marked. Some people have bad sight and may not be able to see a hole but are able to see flashy signs. Should people who have bad sight not be able to navigate freely? Furthermore, this is about driving and not walking, and during the night. It shouldn't come as a surprise that people are not able to see a black hole on black cement at 'high' speeds (50kph/30mph). Add a little bit of rain or fog, and it's just a recipe for disaster. Maybe if people are aware that workers do stuff like that, they are a little bit more careful but it's probably too late when you finally see it. The problem here is that there is a culture that does not care very much about their action towards others and think it's not their responsibility and nothing is going to happen to them. While I liked my stay in Brazil a lot (although it was only for a few days), the difference is quite obvious.
    - forkerenok 8y ago
      Well, it's actually both. We get a decent buffer of safety only if all parties take precautions.
wirrbel 8y ago
This is a funny and entertaining text snippet. I would however not have a problem (except maybe, that it wouldn't be written by a native speaker) to write a similar text about the US, from a German perspective. And think of what a swiss person could write. I could write about interstates that looked like tarred roads. About train stations in chicago that were closed and falling apart and locals explained that it was built with federal money so if they would tear them down they would have to repay that money, about light switches and other building features that remind me of socialism in Germany's east because they are so low-quality and not built to last. People spending overtime hours in the office, yet constantly surfing on facebook, while on the other hand not having time for a shared coffee break, etc, etc.
- oo0shiny 8y ago
  I would read that. Reminds me of the Bill Bryson books he wrote about coming back to America after living in England for 20 years. The most memorable part for me was the vast amounts of cupholders in American cars that aren't found in vehicles anywhere else in the world.
  - wirrbel 8y ago
    I just remember this feeling "over the big pond" that I was standing in houses of people that I assumed to have a good income looking at things and thinking to myself "if I would buy this now, it wouldn't last me till retirement"... Another memorable event was learning about the true American religion: Tide. I still cannot believe people seem to be addicted to a detergent that costs a small fortune per bottle. I kind of assume that the typical top loader washing machines aren't much more expensive than the detergent (here I have never seen one of these fake washing machines). Another thing I remember is design. My father is a hobbyist wood carver and painter with an admiration for the romantic epoch up to the art of the 20ies I would say. I was raised in the firm belief, that a certain aestheticism was lost when artistic and design styles moved ahead. When I was in the US I had at one point an almost enlightenment. I - like many other exchange students - recognised how many things in the us are designed with ornaments, I am not speaking about old stuff things that are produced today. This starts with pens, book covers and furniture, over Greek style columns at family homes and hospitals, and I can only describe this weird feeling with what I assume to an American is the feeling when looking at stuff of Donald trunp. No clear lines but ornaments everywhere. Then I realised that the US has never completely said goodbye to art deco and related styles. Since I know now what the logical continuation of art deco in the 21st century is, j am much less inclined to join my father in mourning the arrival of modern design.
mirimir 8y ago
I've also seen this in Mexico. Sometimes, roads just end, into holes and large rocks and equipment. However, this is mainly an issue in rural areas. And even though there may be no signs, there's typically a line of small rocks, maybe 0.5 meter from the edge.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- rezeroed 8y ago
  Yeah, sounds like Africa too. I don't think this has anything to do with Brazil, rather undeveloped countries. The usual story of first-worlders thinking they know how the rest of the world works.
  - mirimir 8y ago
    So this one time, friends and I were driving through mountains, on a decent ~2 lane road. With even some guard rails. And then we came around a switchback, and the road was basically just gone. No signs, or other warnings. There had been a huge landslide. And there were many workers, from nearby towns, but all with just hand implements. So we had to backtrack ~200 km.
  - saulrh 8y ago
    I don't think you get to claim cultural relativism on not putting up hazard signs. I'd also recommend against claiming cultural relativism on things like wheelchair accessibility, hard hats, fire and earthquake codes, or really 95% of the things covered by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration, the ADA, or similar entities. These are not things you should be proud of not having.
    - rezeroed 8y ago
      Not sure why you're shooting the messenger. I didn't applaud the hole in the road, or the lack of warning signs. I wasn't even commenting on those things, only that this is not exclusively Brazil. You can be as philosophical, logical, ideological as you like, in reality there is Africa time, etc, and you'll just have to get over it. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_time )
forinti 8y ago
As a brazilian who has had some education abroad, the most interesting thing Feynman wrote about Brazil was his critique of the education system [1]. I studied chemistry in high school without ever going into a lab. This holds for all classes, even maths: everything was abstract with no real-world applications. Even Portuguese Language classes had this disease: about a dozen rules for diacritics could be simplified as the usual case and the few exceptions, but they were taught as independent rules (making things a lot harder to retain). [1] http://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education http://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education
- holografix 8y ago
  I too went through all of high school without ever stepping into a chemistry lab or performing any experiments of any kind. Portuguese classes were agonisingly boring and devoid of practical use. No choice of basic or advanced topics were allowed, everyone studies “advanced everything” and to fail one single subject meant you had to fail and re-do the entire year.
schoen 8y ago
Huh, Feynman's host was César Lattes, one of the most famous Brazilian scientists: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lattes_Platform https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lattes_Platform
holografix 8y ago
As a Middle class Brazilian who has lived in Australia half his life and grew up in Rio with a vocal Australian dad I may have something to add. The case of the car in the hole has a socioeconomic explanation. There is huge wealth and education disparity within Brazil and specially Rio. The divide between a blue collar worker fixing the road in Rio and a white collar worker is extreme enough that they are actually from separate cities and I’d suggest different cultures. The road worker would possibly live in a favela with close to no involvement from the government. His only interactions with the “rich”, anyone who doesn’t live in a favela, also called “asphalt people” would be in the form of his superiors who pay him little, treat him like a replaceable resource, don’t provide him with adequate training or tools. There is very little incentive for him to excel at his job or go out of his way to find clever solutions to work problems. There is no career plan here. Once the clock ticks to 5pm he goes back to his universe. The rich can sort it out themselves.

brbrbrbrbr 8y ago

To point #1. That happens still to today. It is a matter of education and resources. Unfortunately, both are low in Brazil. To point #2. Any guest in Brazil will be treated differently during their visit. https://jornalistaheitormenezes.blogspot.com/2015/11/o-carnaval-de-richard-feynman-no-brasil.html https://jornalistaheitormenezes.blogspot.com/2015/11/o-carna... has some interesting historical context about Feynman's trips to Brazil.

sonnyblarney 8y ago
As to 1, no, it's neither 'education' nor 'lack of resources' really. It's a matter of conscientiousness and responsibility. Even if there were no signs immediately available, nobody with an ounce of decency would leave a large hole unmarked. Signs are not expensive, if they're not available it's because of a lack of intelligent and responsible acting somewhere else in in the value chain. As for #2, it's still a lack of conscientiousness. The students should (at least try) to go to their lecture, that the prof should try to give. Surely, a visit to Brazil warrants a quick hop to the beach at minimum but there's no reason people can't do what they are supposed to do all around. 99% of the world's problems would be solved if we all just acted with very basic levels of conscientiousness and responsibility: show up, do the basic work, think a little bit, be nice, don't be corrupt, try to do good work ... commensurate with increasing levels of responsibility obviously, but 'hole diggers' still need to do their jobs with responsibility and a little bit of pride.
- cm2012 8y ago
  It's true that not putting up road signs doesn't tie clearly to education and resources. It's also true that societal education and resources over time correlates strongly with putting up road signs, as the Japan anecdote suggests.
  - sonnyblarney 8y ago
    They are all correlated and I'm not pointing fingers. A society in which nobody give a crap ... it's hard to find people that will consistently rise above.
    - dmix 8y ago
      Indeed, it's also dangerous to be so passe about everything. Especially construction. Just because it's a cultural phenomenon doesn't make it an admirable one or one that should just be accepted as 'how it is'. Plenty of cultures have evolved and changed for the better. A subset of Scots from an area near the border on England used to be known for having a culture where fist fighting over disputes was common and education was looked down upon. Many of these groups migrated to the American south and eventually moved on from violence and education rates have since drastically improved. You can be critical or concerned about a culture phenomenon without dismissing the culture outright like some racist book in the 1920s about Japanese...
      - cm2012 8y ago
        Completely agreed. Didn't mean to imply otherwise!
- alokrai 8y ago
  As for #2, I don't think Feynman meant that the students won't show up for their lecture. It's just they would prefer to have their lectures in afternoon. In fact, from his writing in the later sections of that chapter, it seems that they did show up for their lectures. I find explanation in the previous comment, that as a visitor Feynman may have been held to a different standard in order to make his stay more pleasant, quite reasonable.
iKevinShah 8y ago
"It is a matter of education and resources" Education? Sure, but resources are in no way low in Brazil unless you mean very specific resource(s).
- cm2012 8y ago
  GDP per capita is $8600 compared to USA $57000. It's all relative.
  - southerndrift 8y ago
    It's relative all the way down: the resources to mark the hole are cheaper, too.
  - Retric 8y ago
    It’s closer to 15,000 in terms of PPP. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PP... But even 8,600 is high relative to the US in 1920’s when the economy was seen as booming. In many ways it’s the perception of wealth and a poor social safty net that’s at issue not resources.
latch 8y ago
I don't know about #1. When I lived in Hong Kong, major road/sidewalk repair often seemed, by western style, unsafe. I never really figured out why, but it seemed more of you can lead a horse to water ... Having spent the first half of my life in Canada, and the second in Asia, I've quickly realized that Canadians (and, I assume most of the west) are overprotected (insurance, medicine, health schemes, regulations, big brother, and, most obviously, food safety). (While it isn't unique to Hong Kong, Hong Kong is the most affluent place I've seen this widespread).
MadSudaca 8y ago
It seems to me that #1 is a matter of lack of responsibility. In the US if you dig a hole and someone falls in it because there were no signs, I think you'd get sued to hell. The company, if it survices, would find who's responsible for the bad decision of not putting any signs, and punish that person accordingly for their lack of foresight. Next time that or another person, if they learned from the mistake, will be more careful. Why is there no such focus towards responsibility in Brazil? That's the question imo.
- point78 8y ago
  Sued to hell in a country with 1/10 the money of the western world doesn't mean a lot.
- senorjazz 8y ago
  because it is your responsibility not to walk blindly into a hole. Why the US is so blame happy, rather than personal responsibility, that is the question. -------------------- Just different cultures
  - Matt3o12_ 8y ago
    They are many reasons why people fall into a hole if it is not clearly marked. Some people have bad sight and may not be able to see a hole but are able to see flashy signs. Should people who have bad sight not be able to navigate freely? Furthermore, this is about driving and not walking, and during the night. It shouldn't come as a surprise that people are not able to see a black hole on black cement at 'high' speeds (50kph/30mph). Add a little bit of rain or fog, and it's just a recipe for disaster. Maybe if people are aware that workers do stuff like that, they are a little bit more careful but it's probably too late when you finally see it. The problem here is that there is a culture that does not care very much about their action towards others and think it's not their responsibility and nothing is going to happen to them. While I liked my stay in Brazil a lot (although it was only for a few days), the difference is quite obvious.
  - forkerenok 8y ago
    Well, it's actually both. We get a decent buffer of safety only if all parties take precautions.

wirrbel 8y ago

This is a funny and entertaining text snippet. I would however not have a problem (except maybe, that it wouldn't be written by a native speaker) to write a similar text about the US, from a German perspective. And think of what a swiss person could write. I could write about interstates that looked like tarred roads. About train stations in chicago that were closed and falling apart and locals explained that it was built with federal money so if they would tear them down they would have to repay that money, about light switches and other building features that remind me of socialism in Germany's east because they are so low-quality and not built to last. People spending overtime hours in the office, yet constantly surfing on facebook, while on the other hand not having time for a shared coffee break, etc, etc.

oo0shiny 8y ago
I would read that. Reminds me of the Bill Bryson books he wrote about coming back to America after living in England for 20 years. The most memorable part for me was the vast amounts of cupholders in American cars that aren't found in vehicles anywhere else in the world.
- wirrbel 8y ago
  I just remember this feeling "over the big pond" that I was standing in houses of people that I assumed to have a good income looking at things and thinking to myself "if I would buy this now, it wouldn't last me till retirement"... Another memorable event was learning about the true American religion: Tide. I still cannot believe people seem to be addicted to a detergent that costs a small fortune per bottle. I kind of assume that the typical top loader washing machines aren't much more expensive than the detergent (here I have never seen one of these fake washing machines). Another thing I remember is design. My father is a hobbyist wood carver and painter with an admiration for the romantic epoch up to the art of the 20ies I would say. I was raised in the firm belief, that a certain aestheticism was lost when artistic and design styles moved ahead. When I was in the US I had at one point an almost enlightenment. I - like many other exchange students - recognised how many things in the us are designed with ornaments, I am not speaking about old stuff things that are produced today. This starts with pens, book covers and furniture, over Greek style columns at family homes and hospitals, and I can only describe this weird feeling with what I assume to an American is the feeling when looking at stuff of Donald trunp. No clear lines but ornaments everywhere. Then I realised that the US has never completely said goodbye to art deco and related styles. Since I know now what the logical continuation of art deco in the 21st century is, j am much less inclined to join my father in mourning the arrival of modern design.

mirimir 8y ago

I've also seen this in Mexico. Sometimes, roads just end, into holes and large rocks and equipment. However, this is mainly an issue in rural areas. And even though there may be no signs, there's typically a line of small rocks, maybe 0.5 meter from the edge.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
rezeroed 8y ago
Yeah, sounds like Africa too. I don't think this has anything to do with Brazil, rather undeveloped countries. The usual story of first-worlders thinking they know how the rest of the world works.
- mirimir 8y ago
  So this one time, friends and I were driving through mountains, on a decent ~2 lane road. With even some guard rails. And then we came around a switchback, and the road was basically just gone. No signs, or other warnings. There had been a huge landslide. And there were many workers, from nearby towns, but all with just hand implements. So we had to backtrack ~200 km.
- saulrh 8y ago
  I don't think you get to claim cultural relativism on not putting up hazard signs. I'd also recommend against claiming cultural relativism on things like wheelchair accessibility, hard hats, fire and earthquake codes, or really 95% of the things covered by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration, the ADA, or similar entities. These are not things you should be proud of not having.
  - rezeroed 8y ago
    Not sure why you're shooting the messenger. I didn't applaud the hole in the road, or the lack of warning signs. I wasn't even commenting on those things, only that this is not exclusively Brazil. You can be as philosophical, logical, ideological as you like, in reality there is Africa time, etc, and you'll just have to get over it. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_time )

forinti 8y ago

As a brazilian who has had some education abroad, the most interesting thing Feynman wrote about Brazil was his critique of the education system [1]. I studied chemistry in high school without ever going into a lab. This holds for all classes, even maths: everything was abstract with no real-world applications. Even Portuguese Language classes had this disease: about a dozen rules for diacritics could be simplified as the usual case and the few exceptions, but they were taught as independent rules (making things a lot harder to retain). [1] http://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education http://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education

holografix 8y ago
I too went through all of high school without ever stepping into a chemistry lab or performing any experiments of any kind. Portuguese classes were agonisingly boring and devoid of practical use. No choice of basic or advanced topics were allowed, everyone studies “advanced everything” and to fail one single subject meant you had to fail and re-do the entire year.

schoen 8y ago

Huh, Feynman's host was César Lattes, one of the most famous Brazilian scientists: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lattes_Platform https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lattes_Platform

holografix 8y ago

As a Middle class Brazilian who has lived in Australia half his life and grew up in Rio with a vocal Australian dad I may have something to add. The case of the car in the hole has a socioeconomic explanation. There is huge wealth and education disparity within Brazil and specially Rio. The divide between a blue collar worker fixing the road in Rio and a white collar worker is extreme enough that they are actually from separate cities and I’d suggest different cultures. The road worker would possibly live in a favela with close to no involvement from the government. His only interactions with the “rich”, anyone who doesn’t live in a favela, also called “asphalt people” would be in the form of his superiors who pay him little, treat him like a replaceable resource, don’t provide him with adequate training or tools. There is very little incentive for him to excel at his job or go out of his way to find clever solutions to work problems. There is no career plan here. Once the clock ticks to 5pm he goes back to his universe. The rich can sort it out themselves.