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Consumer DNA tests revealing misattributed parentage
- londons_explore 8y agoSome countries, like for example France, make DNA tests pretty much illegal to prevent discovering painful truths like this.
- rjdagost 8y agoThe French government claims that fatherhood is determined by society, and not biology. That is a very unscientific law.
- jacobush 8y agoHow is it unscientific?
- oh_sigh 8y agoMaybe anti-scientific would be a better term. The law explicitly prevents people from finding out information about themselves that is encoded into every cell of their being.
- 1996 8y agoSuch laws just can't be made to work. Laws can't fight reality.
- darawk 8y agoThat's pretty clearly false. See: China, North Korea.
- 1996 8y agoAny artifical norm can try to fight reality for some time, but reality eventually ends up winning. You can't make something work by going against reality. You can pretend it will work by itself - for a while. This is usually called "delusion" and it takes a lot of resources to maintain it.
- speedplane 8y agoMany artificial norms have stuck around for millennia in the face of reality. Many don't want to wait around that long.
- mirimir 8y agoSure, but France is very close to other countries where DNA testing is legal. No?
- darawk 8y agoMy point is that the idea that you can't deny reality is false. Governments do it all the time, very successfully, for long periods of time. If the argument is "Western, liberal democracies cannot deny reality for an extended period of time", you're probably closer to making a correct statement, but still false. See: Gulf of Tonkin, Lusitania. You might say "But we know the truth of those incidents!", but of course, I can only cite examples for which we now know the truth. The ones for which we do not are, by definition, uncitable.
- mirimir 8y agoOK, sure. But France can't prevent DNA testing. And I wonder, what is it such an issue in France? I wonder if rates of misattributed paternity are higher there.
- darawk 8y agoI'm not sure. Seems like a cultural quirk. The French are somewhat infamously adulterous. So much so that Francois Hollande had a mistress that was super well known and didn't negatively impact him at all. So ya, maybe misattributed paternity is pretty common there.
- syshum 8y agoHow is it not?
- Randin 8y agoIt doesn't have to be scientific.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- bayesian_horse 8y agoIt's not unscientific to define fatherhood in a way that doesn't involve genetic or copulative parentage.
- crumbshot 8y ago> The French government claims that fatherhood is determined by society It is. A child does not need to be genetically related to their parents. Adoption is a common practice.
- st26 8y agoAlthough with genetic diseases and child support, genealogy/paternity still matters.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- gdfasfklshg 8y agoAdoption is one thing. Paternity fraud is another. Many men do not want to raise children that are not biologically theirs. The current system in France (and in many US states) forces men to raise or pay child support for children that are not biologically theirs. In some cases this even prevents men from being able to have or raise properly children of their own.
- paidleaf 8y agoLegal fatherhood is determined by law. Biological fatherhood is determined by science/genetics. Also, adoption isn't a common practice. Adoptions happen, but they are rare. Ideally, legal and biological fatherhood should be one and the same. That way you can find your genetic history for medical purposes and legal family tree for historical purposes. But tragically, in a few cases, legal and biological fathers are not the same.
- crumbshot 8y ago> Ideally [...] But tragically, This is of course a value judgement. I'm sure many adoptees would disagree with your assessment that their situation is tragic.
- paidleaf 8y ago> This is of course a value judgement. It's a biological and common sense judgment. > I'm sure many adoptees would disagree with your assessment that their situation is tragic. Ideally ( all things being equal ), adoptees would want to be with their "ideal" biological parents. Of course if the biological parents are dead, abusive or too poor to provide for them ( tragic ), then adoption is better than nothing. But I can't think of any child who wouldn't want to be with their biological parents all things being equal.
- vkou 8y agoWhat makes it unscientific? Because it makes it difficult to access information? There's a lot of information access to which is, by law, forbidden, or restricted.
- s_kilk 8y ago> That is a very unscientific law. And yours is an extraordinarily myopic view. It should be obvious that fatherhood is more about kinship bond, duty, and obligation than it is about genetics.
- ddorian43 8y agoHow do you feel paying child support for somebody's else kid ?
- baud147258 8y agoIt's a claim that the legal relationship between father and children will not rely on DNA relationship, but on the father acknowledging the child as his own.
- simula67 8y agoI think it a grave offense to the dignity of men and women to deprive them if vital truths like this. The French really have fallen
- toomanybeersies 8y agoI don't think that the French have fallen at all, but rather that attitude has been part of French culture for a long time. As an example, it has been illegal since Napoleonic times for the French government to collect data on ancestry or ethnicity.
- kukx 8y agoThat's terribly oppressive. Honestly no one should be forced to directly support other person child. It must be a voluntary process to be just. The biological parents should be financially responsible by default. It seems obvious to me.
- AstralStorm 8y agoVoluntary process? You mean to remove child support laws completely? That would be great for deadbeats of course. The law is so designed as to limit social impact of a missing parent. It is also unethical to bring a child into this world and then leave it just like that, unless you're a proponent of the spartan way which comprised murdering weak. The current child care facilities cannot even support current orphans.
- kukx 8y agoNo, that is not what I meant. I meant that the biological parents should be financially responsible for their child by default. If someone wants to voluntarily take over the responsibility it is fine. But the state should not force you to sponsor someone else biological child as if it was yours. It has nothing to do with funding poor and orphaned children through general taxes, this is a wholly different situation and by the way I'm in favor of that.
- zavi 8y agoThey ship to France: https://eu.customercare.23andme.com/hc/en-us/articles/204712980-What-countries-do-you-ship-to- https://eu.customercare.23andme.com/hc/en-us/articles/204712...
- dm8 8y agoThere was an interesting thread on reddit where people were sharing their experiences with DNA tests and their parentage/ancestry. I was surprised with sheer number of them being listed/shared there. I never considered DNA tests will have such a weird side effects. It's a fascinating to see how much science or scientific tests in future can lead to weird results (not that I'm condoning cheating or anything) - Thread for the interested - https://np.reddit.com/r/Showerthoughts/comments/7mu9zn/theres_probably_some_women_out_there_whose/ https://np.reddit.com/r/Showerthoughts/comments/7mu9zn/there... EDIT: And every now and then you see these threads - https://np.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/8iq8hu/my_parents_are_now_divorcing_because_of_my_results/ https://np.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/8iq8hu/my_parents_a... More meta questions - will DNA testing result in fidelity of relationships or some sort of regulation where you are not allowed to tell these uncomfortable truths? Regardless, I'm fascinated by DNA and how much it can reveal about ourselves. Not to mention emerging trends like CRISPR.
- tanbog 8y agoMaybe part of the issue is an over-emphasis on "fidelity". People have always played around - or to be frank, many women have been assaulted and had to keep it quiet - maybe the best outcome would be more open communication and understanding between couples rather than even more prescriptive social norms about how relationships should work.
- mirimir 8y agoIt's not so much about fidelity as honesty.
- 1000units 8y agoIn any case, getting raped isn't a breach of fidelity.
- mirimir 8y agoNever said that. Edit: But I gotta say that I'd expect my wife to share if she'd been raped. And especially if she had gotten pregnant, and had chosen to have the child. Without that level of honesty in a marriage, there arguably isn't actually a marriage. That may seem harsh, I know. But hey, I got it from Landmark. For what it's worth, while responsibility and honesty are considered key values, there is no blame.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- tathougies 8y agoYou mean misattributed paternity. Misattributed parentage happens mainly to men. It's a much more involved process to defraud a woman of her child than a man.
- waterhouse 8y agoI guess the two mechanisms that come to mind: 1. Drug and kidnap the woman, implant an embryo that isn't hers, and bring her back home without her finding out. 2. Switch the baby with another plausible-looking one in the hospital. (I have heard this happens more than one might expect. http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1998-08-16/features/1998228086_1_bracelet-delivery-room-baby-id http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1998-08-16/features/1998228... says "About 28,000 babies get switched in hospitals every year, temporarily or permanently, out of four million births", though "most mistakes are fixed before the baby leaves the hospital".)
- bangonkeyboard 8y ago3. The mother is a genetic chimera whose womb has differing DNA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia_Fairchild https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia_Fairchild
- mbreese 8y agoAn IVF mixup is another... Or a kid who was unknowingly raised by their grandparents is an example where you’d see both parents misattributed.
- toomanybeersies 8y ago> Or a kid who was unknowingly raised by their grandparents is an example where you’d see both parents misattributed. I know a guy who this happened to. He got a Mormon girl pregnant and was basically paid to go away, and the child was raised by the grandparents.
- dragonwriter 8y ago> It's a much more involved process to defraud a woman of her child than a man. Misattributed parentage here is misinforming (intentionally or not) children about their parents. Misinforming supposed or actual parents (what you seem to be concerned about) may or may not be involved.
- juskrey 8y agoSome estimations tell that around 30% of children are not from their official fathers.. People are just unaware of amount of secretes seemingly happy marriages hold
- jobobgo 8y agoAsk the current husband what it's like to have a woman that barely puts out once a month because she finds him repulsive and secretly wishes to get together again with the alpha that seeded her children
- hugh4life 8y agoUm no... it's no more than 1-2% in western societies.
- gdfasfklshg 8y agoIt was between 1 in 10 to 1 in 20 prior to DNA testing.
- xevb3k 8y agoDo you have a reference? Not doubting it, but I’m curious to know if this is true.
- mirimir 8y agoI've also read 20-30%. And I was hoping to see an estimate in the article. They must have the data, right? Edit: And yes, those numbers are looking more like FUD.
- juskrey 8y agoAnecdotal: in last three generations of my family we had three confirmed incidents of this. It's only what we know. Including my own first marriage (I divorced, though it wasn't a secret, since the marriage de facto already did not exist by that time) Not 30% but not 1-2 also..
- 8y ago
- RyJones 8y agoI found an older half sister via one of these tests. The demotion from oldest to second oldest has been a bitter pill, but having a new older sister is pretty neat!
- technofiend 8y agoI found my father through one, sadly he never had any other children. It would have been fun to instantly gain some new siblings. Because I first met him well into my adulthood it was interesting to learn his likes and dislikes since there's no question he didn't directly influence anything I did or didn't do. We're both avid readers, we both like to live clutter-free lifestyles, we both like to travel. I learned to fly as a hobby and seriously considered it as a career, he was a pilot in the armed services and then professionally until he retired. We both like to go fast: I drove a late 60's Mustang in college, he had a Porsche speedster. Really the only thing we're opposed on is politics as he says "he's slightly to the right of Genghis Khan."
- RyJones 8y agoTalking with my new sister certainly has changed my opinions on nature versus nurture and freewill.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- techpenguin549 8y agoBut you’re still the oldest male! And what a great older sister you gained. :)
- RyJones 8y agoMy older sister, folks :)
- jobobgo 8y agoIt's called Paternity Fraud and woman who steal years off a man's life by lying to him... should be tried in a Court of Law. Between 2-12% of husbands are literal definition of the word "cuckold".
- apo 8y ago... “This generation right now and maybe the next 15 years or so, there’s going to be a lot of shocking results coming out. I’d say in 20 years’ time it’s going to dissipate,” she predicted. By then, our expectations of privacy will have caught up with the new reality created by the rise of consumer DNA tests. This reminds me of a discussion in which people were speculating about things that would not exist in the future. There were many candidates: cancer; hunger; racism; and so on. By far the most insightful comment came from the person who said "privacy." I don't think most people are ready for that future; it's almost unimaginable.
- ap3 8y agoThe youtube/fb/ig/snapchat generations might not even expect it
- syshum 8y agoOne can not have freedom with out privacy. As we destroy the concept of privacy we also destroy the concept of freedom. It will be interesting how civilization handles it. We are starting to see some signs of push back, but unfortunely people are turning to governments and authoritarianism as a "solution". IMO we are at at fork in civilization, and it seems we are choosing the less free, less private path
- mirimir 8y agoYes, pervasive DNA testing, sequencing even, poses some extremely serious privacy risks. Everyone certainly has the right to know the results of their own tests. But arguably, everyone also has the right to keep those results private. Both from commercial third parties, and from the general public.
- icelancer 8y ago>> One can not have freedom with out privacy. As we destroy the concept of privacy we also destroy the concept of freedom. People increasingly do not care about freedom / liberty. This is evident by the people we elect and the things we care about. We celebrate gaining civil rights at the expense of liberty and no one cares about Snowden's revelations or anyone other exposure of government overreach. Freedom is rapidly dying along with privacy.
- hugh4life 8y agoA little OT and most here probably already know, but genetic genealogy(GEDmatch basically) is starting to be used to solve rape and murder cases. Here's a recent murder case solved a couple weeks ago they announced just on friday that they used genetic genealogy: http://providencejournal.com/news/20180727/how-dna-and-tattoo-led-to-charges-in-cold-ri-murder-case http://providencejournal.com/news/20180727/how-dna-and-tatto... And here's the first instance that I know of of a non-fatal rape case where the technology was used. https://www.thespectrum.com/story/news/2018/07/28/79-year-old-woman-raped-assaulted-her-st-george-home/855583002/ https://www.thespectrum.com/story/news/2018/07/28/79-year-ol...
- bayesian_horse 8y agoIt's a good way to work around privacy issues like offenders not wanting/bothering to have their DNA registered. That's one of the reasons I believe people tend to be a little too protective of their genetic information. For one thing we spread it around, constantly. For another, all our relatives have some or most of that information too.
- hugh4life 8y agoIt's not really collection that's the big issue... the big issue is that the federal DNA database only stores a very small portion of the DNA so familial searches on it are only accurate up to 1st cousins. And there are privacy and disparate impact on minorities(everyone caught thus far with GEDMatch has been white IIRC) complaints with using the federal database for familial searches. With GED Match you can go much deeper(at least to 3rd cousins but IIRC potentially up to 5th) in the family tree than the federal DNA database would allow. There are about 1 million law enforcement personnel in the US which is about how many samples are in the GEDMatch database... a pretty powerful database could be created just from the samples from law enforcement personnel.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- bayesian_horse 8y agoSon, you are not adopted, just ... misattributed.
- mlang23 8y agoInteresting, how apparently many females do not want to inform their children about the truth. This is very sad to read. Even after so many years, adults prefer a web of lies over finally letting their children know what really happened. Lying chickens.
- logronoide 8y agoI dated a girl in the nineties that worked at a maternity ward in a very popular hospital. She said that just comparing blood types five to ten percent of the babies did not belong to the mother’s couple. And of course doctors and nurses never said a word.
- ionised 8y agoYou mean they mixed up the babies and gave them to the wrong parents?
- logronoide 8y agoIt’s almost impossible to mix up babies in a maternity ward nowadays with all tracking stuff they have. No, I mean the mother cheating her couple.
- DanBC 8y agoYour use of the word "couple" is confusing to people who speak English as a second language.
- lawlessone 8y agoIt's confusing for me and i speak English as first language.
- logronoide 8y agoEnglish is my second language and I did not want to sound rude. I meant 'the guy that is supposed to be the biological father and he is not but he doesn't know'. In Spanish, we have a very rude word for these men: 'Los cornudos'. I love the conciseness in languages but I don't like to sound rude in HN. Sorry! ;-)
- WorkLifeBalance 8y ago
- 555anon 8y agoRegarding the misattributed paternity numbers/rates: Obviously interviewing people isn't going to reveal the correct numbers: If a mother isn't going to tell her child, or doesn't know [switched in the maternity ward, chimera, multiple partners] chances are they aren't going to tell some random researcher either. However, there was some interesting research at a hospital in the UK (maybe Bristol ?) which tested the men which were present at the birth of the child against the child, and the numbers are rather high - something above 1 in 20. And this is for the men that were present. Something which should be more common knowledge.
- dotancohen 8y agoThere is every reason to believe that this is strongly influenced by culture. Perhaps the Swedish have a higher incidence, and the Saudis lower. One should not look at a single study in a single place at a single time, that depends almost entirely on human behaviour, and extrapolate to humans as a whole.
- marchenko 8y agoThe actual rate of non-paternity in western societies is closer to 3%. The 10-20% figures that appear regularly on the internet are largely derived from rates of non-paternity in cases were paternity was questioned (i.e. pre-existing suspicions of infidelity). The higher ranges quoted (30% is the highest I have seen) are generally from small study populations with extended periods of partner absence, like central American itinerant laborers or African truck drivers.
- andygcook 8y agoI had never heard of chimeraism in humans. Naturally was curious and looked it up. Found this article to be helpful for anyone else interested: http://www.vibrantgene.com/giving-birth-to-your-siblings-baby-the-intriguing-condition-of-chimerism/ http://www.vibrantgene.com/giving-birth-to-your-siblings-bab...
- amelius 8y agoImagine that you are the one doing customer support at one of these companies ...
- dotancohen 8y agoBest line of the fine article, in relation to the discovery by DNA testing of secret infidelity and rape: > It’s getting harder and harder to keep secrets in our society That motif seems to be permeating deeper and deeper into every aspect of modern life.
- sandworm101 8y agoI went to law school with a former ER doctor. When a teenager (<16) would show up in labor, he said there was a 30% chance her child's father was her father too. The doctors duty was to the patient(s) and breaking up the family by reporting was not in her best interests. The prevalence of DNA tests is going to make such coverups impossible.
- swiley 8y agoIt would be best if we could decouple documentation from prosecution. The fact that it isn’t is how you end up with situations like that where people can’t talk about rape.
- sandworm101 8y agoCareful, that's a breath away from decriminalizing pedophilia. The daughter is still a child, the father a sex offender who in any other circumstance would be crucified. The internet doesn't react well to such ideas. Im all for allowing doctors some discretion in testing, but non-prosecution cannot be public policy.
- matheusmoreira 8y agoYou said there was a ~30% chance a teenager in labor had been abused by her father. It can be inferred that in ~70% of cases the teenager had not been abused by her father. Should people prosecute the father of every pregnant teenager despite the 70% chance of him being innocent?
- 8y ago