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Why do you think the social safety net is non-existent? The US has tons of social welfare programs: - TANF (temporary assistance for needy families) - Medicai

Why do you think the social safety net is non-existent? The US has tons of social welfare programs: - TANF (temporary assistance for needy families) - Medicaid - SNAP (food stamps) - CHIP (child health insurance program) - unemployment - disability - housing assistance - social security - ... States and cities also have many welfare programs along with private charities. It is absolutely possible to save money on an average salary. In general, Americans are indebted and live beyond their means by choice, not by necessity. And once they get into the debt cycle it can be extremely difficult to get out. Check out Dave Ramsey for practical tips: https://www.daveramsey.com/store/product/the-total-money-makeover-book-by-dave-ramsey https://www.daveramsey.com/store/product/the-total-money-mak...

jahaja 8y ago
From my Scandinavian perspective US welfare has always seemed like a plausible deniability scheme rather than a genuine attempt.
- cdoxsey 8y ago
  It's not for lack of trying. The US spends an enormous amount of money on social programs. See here for an example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_social_welfare_spending https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_social_we... It's less than Denmark/Norway/Sweden, but more than the UK for example (per capita).
  - nojvek 8y ago
    Yes but the welfare spending doesn't go as further as it does in in Australia, NZ, Denmark, Norway, Sweden e.t.c Mostly because US spends a ridiculous amount of money just moving records and doing busy work with layers and layers of middlemen. The healthcare complex is a good example.
    - tptacek 8y ago
      The US "safety-net" health system --- medicare in particular --- is significantly more efficient than the private market health care system in the US, which makes that example poor evidence for the argument you're trying to support.
      - KyeRussell 8y ago
        Is that the bar we're setting?
  - jahaja 8y ago
    Why do you think cost per capita is a good indicator for what's a genuine attempt at implementing welfare programs?
clumsysmurf 8y ago
I think its more complicated. For example, lets say you file for unemployment in Colorado. It can take 4-6 weeks for your claim to be accepted, but you must start (by their rules) looking for work as soon as you open your claim. So imagine, you are living paycheck to paycheck when you had a job, and falling through the cracks now that you don't. You start applying for jobs as soon as you file your claim, but need to buy clothes for interviews, money to drive to interviews, etc - but that money is not coming for another 6 weeks in worst case scenario. And there are already bills like rent, phone, car insurance, maybe a credit card to be paid. There are all these little gotchas - when there are no margins in your life - where a crack opens a little here, or there, and you fall through, and without help just becomes all the more harder to pull yourself up.
- mynameishere 8y ago
  Seems to me that someone who can't survive for six weeks by one mechanism or another--whether by savings, or family and friends, or credit, or charity, or existing government programs, or short term work--is doomed anyway. At some point, people have to be dealt the consequences of their actions. At some point. You can't just spell out a scenario where someone is completely irresponsible and say, "Well, because of this guy we need even more safety nets--the existing two dozen are insufficient."
  - jonao 8y ago
    That is a completely unrealistic model that would be inadmissible when talking about most other things. I am not even sure it worth responding on a technical level if you can't see that yourself. Just compare this to any sort of statistical model whether it is in manufacturing, engineering or 'plain' mathematics. What is curious is that people who tend to view the US government as incompetent, which I think many people can agree with whether their opinion on the governments role, suddenly when talking about poverty seems to think that it is a role model for efficiency. Not even the Nordic model takes this stance.
e12e 8y ago
> It is absolutely possible to save money on an average salary. Not to pick on your use of average in general concertation, but it appears the average income is around 45 000/year and the median is around 30 000 - for all demographics. I'm not sure what 30k is after taxes most places in the US... 25k if you're not a home owner? It may be feasible to save some money in areas with low cost of living - I don't know. I also only get these weekly/yearly numbers to line up if I multiply with 52 weeks - but is paid vacation and sick days the norm in the US? https://www.bls.gov/news.release/wkyeng.t05.htm https://www.bls.gov/news.release/wkyeng.t05.htm https://www.ssa.gov/OACT/COLA/central.html https://www.ssa.gov/OACT/COLA/central.html
- harryh 8y ago
  US Median household income is about $60k/year.
  - vilmosi 8y ago
    It wouldn't surprise me if, on average, one household had two income earners, so it seems in line with the parent's point.
    - harryh 8y ago
      Mean earners per US household is about 1.3 Unsurprisingly, this number rises with household income. It's ~0.4 for the lowest quintile and ~2.0 for the highest.
- cimmanom 8y ago
  Salaried employees typically get paid vacation and sick leave. Employees paid hourly wages do not. Some don’t even get unpaid leave.
  - scarface74 8y ago
    That's simply not true. Most full time hourly workers accrue vacation hours just like salaried workers.
tluyben2 8y ago
It might be only 'the press' skewing our view here in the EU. Social safety means that I don't have to worry no matter what happens; the stories in the article and in this thread do not seem to point to anything like that in the US. When I get ill, I cannot wait for months for help or money; it needs to be near instant. I also cannot do too much work to get it; I am ill; if I could go to all kinds of offices and fill paperwork and talk with people, I could work. So it needs to be automatic mostly. I might be wrong, but I do not get the impression that's the case with any of these. But that might just be people being negative or the press likes to put down things?
- cdoxsey 8y ago
  If you're referring to Hospitals, they are required by law to treat you regardless of your ability to pay: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_Medical_Treatment_and_Active_Labor_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_Medical_Treatment_an... There are many medical conditions which are not covered and require insurance or out of pocket payment.
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    > If you're referring to Hospitals, they are required by law to treat you regardless of your ability to pay Hospitals—well, emergency departments of hospitals that take Medicare—are required to screen for and stabilize any “emergency medical conditions”, as defined in law, regardless of ability to pay. As your source noted, that is not a mandate for general treatment, or even stabilization of medical conditions generally.
  - tluyben2 8y ago
    And not only the coverage of the hospital: also the coverage of not being able to work for a period or forever. In a social security system I expect both to be covered.
    - cdoxsey 8y ago
      Social Security covers long term disability: https://www.ssa.gov/benefits/disability/ https://www.ssa.gov/benefits/disability/
benevol 8y ago
> - unemployment Let's see. In the US, as soon as you can qualify for unemployment, you usually get USD 1,000-2,000/month in post tax income for 6 months. In Switzerland, you get 70-80% of your last salary. Are you guys still sure you are not getting ripped off buy your government (respectively the billionaires who own it)?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]

jahaja 8y ago

From my Scandinavian perspective US welfare has always seemed like a plausible deniability scheme rather than a genuine attempt.

cdoxsey 8y ago
It's not for lack of trying. The US spends an enormous amount of money on social programs. See here for an example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_social_welfare_spending https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_social_we... It's less than Denmark/Norway/Sweden, but more than the UK for example (per capita).
- nojvek 8y ago
  Yes but the welfare spending doesn't go as further as it does in in Australia, NZ, Denmark, Norway, Sweden e.t.c Mostly because US spends a ridiculous amount of money just moving records and doing busy work with layers and layers of middlemen. The healthcare complex is a good example.
  - tptacek 8y ago
    The US "safety-net" health system --- medicare in particular --- is significantly more efficient than the private market health care system in the US, which makes that example poor evidence for the argument you're trying to support.
    - KyeRussell 8y ago
      Is that the bar we're setting?
- jahaja 8y ago
  Why do you think cost per capita is a good indicator for what's a genuine attempt at implementing welfare programs?

clumsysmurf 8y ago

I think its more complicated. For example, lets say you file for unemployment in Colorado. It can take 4-6 weeks for your claim to be accepted, but you must start (by their rules) looking for work as soon as you open your claim. So imagine, you are living paycheck to paycheck when you had a job, and falling through the cracks now that you don't. You start applying for jobs as soon as you file your claim, but need to buy clothes for interviews, money to drive to interviews, etc - but that money is not coming for another 6 weeks in worst case scenario. And there are already bills like rent, phone, car insurance, maybe a credit card to be paid. There are all these little gotchas - when there are no margins in your life - where a crack opens a little here, or there, and you fall through, and without help just becomes all the more harder to pull yourself up.

mynameishere 8y ago
Seems to me that someone who can't survive for six weeks by one mechanism or another--whether by savings, or family and friends, or credit, or charity, or existing government programs, or short term work--is doomed anyway. At some point, people have to be dealt the consequences of their actions. At some point. You can't just spell out a scenario where someone is completely irresponsible and say, "Well, because of this guy we need even more safety nets--the existing two dozen are insufficient."
- jonao 8y ago
  That is a completely unrealistic model that would be inadmissible when talking about most other things. I am not even sure it worth responding on a technical level if you can't see that yourself. Just compare this to any sort of statistical model whether it is in manufacturing, engineering or 'plain' mathematics. What is curious is that people who tend to view the US government as incompetent, which I think many people can agree with whether their opinion on the governments role, suddenly when talking about poverty seems to think that it is a role model for efficiency. Not even the Nordic model takes this stance.

e12e 8y ago

> It is absolutely possible to save money on an average salary. Not to pick on your use of average in general concertation, but it appears the average income is around 45 000/year and the median is around 30 000 - for all demographics. I'm not sure what 30k is after taxes most places in the US... 25k if you're not a home owner? It may be feasible to save some money in areas with low cost of living - I don't know. I also only get these weekly/yearly numbers to line up if I multiply with 52 weeks - but is paid vacation and sick days the norm in the US? https://www.bls.gov/news.release/wkyeng.t05.htm https://www.bls.gov/news.release/wkyeng.t05.htm https://www.ssa.gov/OACT/COLA/central.html https://www.ssa.gov/OACT/COLA/central.html

harryh 8y ago
US Median household income is about $60k/year.
- vilmosi 8y ago
  It wouldn't surprise me if, on average, one household had two income earners, so it seems in line with the parent's point.
  - harryh 8y ago
    Mean earners per US household is about 1.3 Unsurprisingly, this number rises with household income. It's ~0.4 for the lowest quintile and ~2.0 for the highest.
cimmanom 8y ago
Salaried employees typically get paid vacation and sick leave. Employees paid hourly wages do not. Some don’t even get unpaid leave.
- scarface74 8y ago
  That's simply not true. Most full time hourly workers accrue vacation hours just like salaried workers.

tluyben2 8y ago

It might be only 'the press' skewing our view here in the EU. Social safety means that I don't have to worry no matter what happens; the stories in the article and in this thread do not seem to point to anything like that in the US. When I get ill, I cannot wait for months for help or money; it needs to be near instant. I also cannot do too much work to get it; I am ill; if I could go to all kinds of offices and fill paperwork and talk with people, I could work. So it needs to be automatic mostly. I might be wrong, but I do not get the impression that's the case with any of these. But that might just be people being negative or the press likes to put down things?

cdoxsey 8y ago
If you're referring to Hospitals, they are required by law to treat you regardless of your ability to pay: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_Medical_Treatment_and_Active_Labor_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_Medical_Treatment_an... There are many medical conditions which are not covered and require insurance or out of pocket payment.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > If you're referring to Hospitals, they are required by law to treat you regardless of your ability to pay Hospitals—well, emergency departments of hospitals that take Medicare—are required to screen for and stabilize any “emergency medical conditions”, as defined in law, regardless of ability to pay. As your source noted, that is not a mandate for general treatment, or even stabilization of medical conditions generally.
- tluyben2 8y ago
  And not only the coverage of the hospital: also the coverage of not being able to work for a period or forever. In a social security system I expect both to be covered.
  - cdoxsey 8y ago
    Social Security covers long term disability: https://www.ssa.gov/benefits/disability/ https://www.ssa.gov/benefits/disability/

benevol 8y ago

> - unemployment Let's see. In the US, as soon as you can qualify for unemployment, you usually get USD 1,000-2,000/month in post tax income for 6 months. In Switzerland, you get 70-80% of your last salary. Are you guys still sure you are not getting ripped off buy your government (respectively the billionaires who own it)?

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]